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TheSoreika · 2015-05-21, 17:37

I haven't posted in a while but I have a few questions. I am doing a semi read through on youtube and twitch of umineko of the first four episodes with a friend of mine trying to see if is solvable in hindsight of knowing "the truth". We are goofing off and making jokes through the read through but at the same time it is giving me a lot of hypothetical questions and thoughts.

1. this may seem odd but I watched the anime first,read the last 4 episodes of the visual novel, read the manga, and now I am read the first 4. So, I am not sure I missed over it but where was it confirmed that Yasu was male at birth? I know it is extremely hinted at and I strongly believe that Yasu was born male but is there anything concrete?

2. I understand the reason why the tragedy happened in prime, but I wonder would it have still happened if rosa never found Beatrice II which and helped her to leave which lead to her death? I really would have liked to see what would have caused the tragedy if Beatrice II did not die and raised her child.

3. Speaking of Beatrice II I noticed she did not mention she had a child. I understand for plot reason but it seems odd that she was ready to just leave her baby like that. But then again she was in a extreme situation and she probably figured kumasawa would take care of Lion if she left.

I know these may seem like strange thoughts/ questions but I figure I need some where to put them. I will probably have more after I do my next reading tonight.

GreyZone · 2015-05-21, 18:05

As far as I know there were always 2 possibilities presented:

1. Yasu was born male and after the "accident" lost his "ability to love" and then later on had all the "identity" problems because of that

2. Yasu was born female and after the "accident" lost her "ability to love" and then later on had all the "identity" problems because of that

It seems more people believe that 1 is true, obviously because of "man from 19 years ago" and the chance to be very high that Natsuhi knew the sex of the baby... but then again we were never told if she didn't just receive the baby in full clothes like 3 minutes before she caused the servant along with the baby to die and therefore never even got to know the sex of the baby...

there was also talk about Yasu being born hermaphrodite, but afaik that was dismissed as unlikely by the majority...

jjblue1 · 2015-05-21, 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaputanAngel

The problem here is Ange DOES aknowledge herself as Ushiromiya Ange. During her discussion with Tohya, the following exchange occurs:

Tohya:
"I came in her today...thinking that you might be a certain person. Her name is Ushiromiya Ange."

Ange:
"That's right. How long it's been since I last used that name. My true name is Ushiromiya Ange."

Going by a pseudonym does not constitute dying, even in the Umineko universe. What matters is that unlike Tohya (who no longer saw himself as Battler), Ange still identified as herself, even if using an alias for other reasons.

Again, the "figurative" death doesn't work with Ange. Her death, as confirmed in the red, is probably physical (aka she actually died).

Ange technically IS Ushiromiya Ange the same way Tohya is Ushiromiya Battler.
They're dead as characters, as Yukari by then differs from Ange quite a bit and Tohya is likely litterally another person but they both own the body of Ushiromiya Ange and Ushiromiya Battler.
And, as Haguruma said Ange's death was likely faked in the future so as to suit Ange's purpose so Ange is technically dead to the world. Ange 'killed' her own identity in the world, so that she could be dead to it.

How different is this from when Sayo drops the identities of Shannon and Kanon and have Beatrice declare in red they're dead?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaputanAngel

The thing is, she never identified as somebody at any point in time. The entire reason she used the name "Sakutarou's Adventure" was under the marginal possibility that a family member would catch the reference. Likewise, her first thought when she heard about the second author was that it was Battler.

There can be no revival if there was never a death. Again, there is no evidence that Ange suffered a "figurative" death. That said, plenty of evidence points to a physical death.

Ange became Kotobuki Yukari. She adopted a different mindsetting and behaviour from when she was Ushiromiya Ange. She became 'another person'. This doesn't mean she didn't want to make sure someone from her true family was still alive. Even if Tohya doesn't identify himself with Battler anymore he still went and searched for her, after all.

The manga actually gave evidence Ange's death was faked and that she's very much alive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaputanAngel

While we do not know the actual reasons for the murders, we do know that Kyrie and Rudolf committed the murders. This is confirmed. Even if there are distortions in the events as played out in Ep.7, it is the closest thing we as the reader get to the truth. I also do not think Bern "tampered" with the events, and that her statement that there is no GM, is accurate.

There is no GM because the Teaparty is, for the most of its part, not a game. It's Eva's diary which is not a forgery but a retelling of what she saw (plus what are likely speculations over what she didn't see). But Bern's role here is just to have Ange learn of the truth in the diary. She's not presenting a portrayal, she's just handing Ange something that Eva wrote. It's not a portrayal, is truth as Eva knew it plus a portrayal of what Eva speculated over what she didn't know... which might not be accurate at all as it describes Kyrie killing Beato but we know that Beato instead left the golden room.

Bern isn't the GM in Ep 7 Teaparty. She didn't write it. She's just listening to it same as Ange.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaputanAngel

Even Bern acknowledges Ep. 8 as a game though and makes no attempt to pass it off as fake. All parties involved (Ange, Battler, Beatrice) are aware of this. I can hardly see how this constitutes deception.

Bern had Ange watch Ep 8 with the belief it wasn't a game. Ange was sure it was the truth and it was pretty traumatic for her. It was Erika who warned her it was a game that worked as a reflection of the public opinion. Ange didn't know until ERIKA told her.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaputanAngel

As far as I'm aware, the manga has yet to finish till Aug.

We all know the manga hasn't ended yet. however how a ending has to be considered was discussed earlier on, when Lion promised Lambda they'll show her a happy ending even if it was declared with certain that the game won't have one (chap 22 of the manga).

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaputanAngel

This is a valid point. However, the scene severely implies that Bern was referring to physical survival. This is shown by the references to the actual height of the jump and the inability to survive from it.

You also need to remember that suicide nets only work up to a certain height. Besides not extending very far off the building (Ange probably missed it all together when she splatted into the ground), they can be made from materials such as steel. Even if she did land in it, a strong likelihood exist that she would have died.

Bern believed Ange didn't survive. Bern isn't omniscent though. She probably has the same knowledge of the public opinion. The manga showed us Ange survived but that she planned to have herself be declared dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaputanAngel

As a side note, I think Bern truly hated Ange for her lack of resolve. Here Bern is having undergone the horror that is Higurashi, and then there is Ange who wants to kill herself when she finds out her family was a bunch of murderers.

Not saying this dynamic is there, but given Bern's reaction to the jump and various interactions with Ange throughout the story, I think there was more here than just trying to screw with a random person.

Bern's problem was more that she hates to lose. She always wants to win a crushing victory.
However when Battler won he refused to crush Beato which angered her (as well as caused the loss of her piece, Erika). As if to make matters worse in Ep 6 Battler and Beato defeated Bern. Bern is out for their blood.
At first, in Ep 3/4 for Bern Ange was a mere piece for which she had no particular feelings and that she had no problem to toss away (same as one would have for a pen who ran out of ink) then it became an instrument to hurt Battler who cares for her. And as Ange defies her and refuse to let herself be destroyed but gang up with Battler to steal the key, basically trying to make Bern lose again, Bern's anger turned on her as well. It won't last long though as bern is crushed and then the story ends.

But since Bern started the story by betting against Beato and things developed in a way she didn't like, she ended up being the adversary and playing the bad guy's role. She didn't mean to target Ange in the beginning. It's just a consequence of how the story developed.

In the same way Lambda didn't mean to go that far in supporting Battler and Ange... but things evolved in such way she gave her life for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSoreika

I haven't posted in a while but I have a few questions. I am doing a semi read through on youtube and twitch of umineko of the first four episodes with a friend of mine trying to see if is solvable in hindsight of knowing "the truth". We are goofing off and making jokes through the read through but at the same time it is giving me a lot of hypothetical questions and thoughts.

1. this may seem odd but I watched the anime first,read the last 4 episodes of the visual novel, read the manga, and now I am read the first 4. So, I am not sure I missed over it but where was it confirmed that Yasu was male at birth? I know it is extremely hinted at and I strongly believe that Yasu was born male but is there anything concrete?

No, it's just suggested by the fact Natsuhi assumed the baby was male. The manga and Ryukishi twitters strongly implied Lion was male as well so Yasu being born male seems the most likely possibility.
Ryukishi though refused to confirm if Sayo was a transgendered character in a recent interview preferring to leave it up to fans' speculations so I think you're free to see it as you prefer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSoreika

2. I understand the reason why the tragedy happened in prime, but I wonder would it have still happened if rosa never found Beatrice II which and helped her to leave which lead to her death? I really would have liked to see what would have caused the tragedy if Beatrice II did not die and raised her child.

Well, Umineko implied that theoretically yes, it would have happened just the same. In Ep 7 Teaparty we're told that when Kinzo tried to make Lion the heir the adults solved the epitaph and Kyrie started murdering people. Even if Beato had survived Kinzo would have likely wanted to make Lion the heir and make him be accepted through the epitaph riddle. In 1986 this would have been the trigger to the tragedy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSoreika

3. Speaking of Beatrice II I noticed she did not mention she had a child. I understand for plot reason but it seems odd that she was ready to just leave her baby like that. But then again she was in a extreme situation and she probably figured kumasawa would take care of Lion if she left.

It was speculated that due to the extreme ignorance in which Beato was kept she might have not even been fully capable to understand that what had happened to her was that she had a child. Maybe she thought it was all due to Kinzo's magic. Maybe she didn't even know humans looks like that when they're born. Maybe the kid was taken away from her and entrusted to caretakers just after he was born.
Maybe for her all this was traumatic and she just couldn't form a bond with the baby. She hesitates for a moment before leaving the place, after all but evidently she's simply not attached enough to the child.

Ayu-ayu · 2015-05-22, 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSoreika

I haven't posted in a while but I have a few questions. I am doing a semi read through on youtube and twitch of umineko of the first four episodes with a friend of mine trying to see if is solvable in hindsight of knowing "the truth".

On a related tangent, I totally recommend checking out the Goats Rereading Seacats Tumblr, who have been going through the whole series with a similar goal. Aside from some great insight from two fairly aligned perspectives on each individual chapter of each episode, they also put together some good thoughts on the solvability of each chapter, which tend to match the "difficulty level" R07 assigns to each episode on the title screen as it turns out.

While I recommend reading the whole blog (no small time investment!) to date, here's an example of when the first episode was discussed for solvability at its end: http://goatsreadingseacats.tumblr.co...nd-solvability

haguruma · 2015-05-22, 07:52

.....
I will just post this for now and wait for answers...

Spoiler for Chapter 37: When the Seagulls Cry:

Levani · 2015-05-22, 08:39

Holy shitfuck, did Ryu just... explain the damn beginning of Umineko!?

GreyZone · 2015-05-22, 09:53

There is still a problem with this. One of the following possibilities:

Tohya's memories are SERIOUSLY wrong about the events (or he lied to Yukari for some reason)
There was a retcon
The "truth" presented here and/or the EP8 ???TP is/are just (a) lie(s)

Reason for that being the fact that Tohya mentions something about "getting split from Eva in the tunnels". Here however they don't even meet Eva in the first place! But at least it would explain what happened to Battler just disappearing in EP7 TP all of a sudden.

Levani · 2015-05-22, 09:59

Quote:

Tohya's memories are SERIOUSLY wrong about the events

But they are, aren't they? If I remember it correctly, he says it himself.

jjblue1 · 2015-05-22, 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

.....
I will just post this for now and wait for answers...

Spoiler for Chapter 37: When the Seagulls Cry:

No! No! No! No! You can't just post the summary! I've to see this one! I've to swoon over each page! I've to get insanely incoherent as if I enjoy all of this! I've to rant, rave, cry, laugh and be worse than Kinzo! I've... I've...

Deep breaths, deep breaths...

Okay, this was beautiful and I'm very, very grateful you posted a translation of it.
I love how the manga expanded what we saw. Well, this more or less fits with my assumptions that Sayo survived and went to search for Battler. Dear God, Kyrie and Rudolf are fast killers.
I'm a bit confuse on what exactly happened.

Hum... Beato woke up and heard Kyrie and Rudolf talking... I'll take as they left she left as well searching for Battler.

Somehow Battler decided to go to the chapel... but evidently Kyrie wasn't the one who called him there as apparently she was already dead? And of course so Rudolf? So he reaches the chapel and Sayo finds him there and Eva is following them?
And somehow they manage to escape her?
Is that it?
Anyway... it's pretty awesome.

I like how Sayo tried her hardest to save him and he too tried to save her.
I like their interaction. I like how the manga explained why they took so long to escape.

I love the cute moments. I love Battler who shows himself to truly be the kind boy of the tales.

I still think the ingot is a plot device as it was plainly stupid to hide one instead than a credit card (how do you convert it?) although it's hard to drown yourself while holding a credit card so an ingot was needed.

I like how it was explained why she killed herself just the same.

The meta part is... interesting, I'll say.
Very meta.
And anyway it kills me I can't see the chapter for myself because really, just by the script it's too awesome for words and I need time to form more coherent thoughts.

Anyway THANK YOU a lot for this translation. I know it was a lot of work as it was pretty long and you've been so fast so I'm very, very thankful!... but I still want to see the chapter! ;_;

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

There is still a problem with this. One of the following possibilities:

Tohya's memories are SERIOUSLY wrong about the events (or he lied to Yukari for some reason)
There was a retcon
The "truth" presented here and/or the EP8 ???TP is/are just (a) lie(s)

Reason for that being the fact that Tohya mentions something about "getting split from Eva in the tunnels". Here however they don't even meet Eva in the first place! But at least it would explain what happened to Battler just disappearing in EP7 TP all of a sudden.

Tohya never said he was split from Eva. He never mentioned escaping with her. It was Ange who assumed he was escaping with Eva as she had no idea he could have been escaping with Sayo.

Quote:

Ange: "......Eva oba-san avoided the explosion accident by escaping to Kuwadorian. ......How did you escape the accident, onii-cha......nii-san?"
Tohya: "On that day, ......I escaped through the underground passage."
Ange: "The one that goes to Kuwadorian?"
Tohya: "I was told that an underground passage led to a hidden mansion on the opposite side of the island. ......However, the place we escaped to was a submarine base, not Kuwadorian."

As you can see Tohya makes no references to Eva. However, hearing this Ange assumes:

Quote:

I don't know under what circumstances my brother entered the underground passage on that day.
At any rate, he went into the underground passage, split up with Eva oba-san there, and escaped to the submarine base.
There, he escaped the explosion...and survived......

Then Tohya goes on:

Quote:

Tohya: "From there, I got away on a motorboat. ......However, ......it must have capsized somewhere along the way."
Ange: "It...must have...?"
Ikuko: "......Please forgive him. Tohya suffers from memory loss. His memory from around the time he was drowning in the ocean is hazy."

Tohya has switched to singular. It might be that the previous plural was a mislip as he didn't want to talk with Ange about Sayo... and it's possible he even lied about why he ended up in the water... or of course he might not really remember how things went but just that 'someone' told him about the tunnel and that 'someone' escaped with him but not who this 'someone' was.

Considering Tohya likely read Eva's diary, Confession of the Golden Witch and solved Umineko however even if he doesn't remember it's likely he can make a polite guess and that guess isn't Eva. So I'm more prone to assume he just didn't want to talk about Sayo with Ange.

The tip in Ep 7 is likely from Eva's point of view... if Eva never found Battler's corpse it's as if Battler disappeared. In the same way though this explaines how she might have been scared Battler and Beatrice, whose corpse also disappeared, surived and might come back to kill her, which would justify her paranoia and the many bodyguards.
Also it can be why she said in the manga she helped Ange for her own benefit. She was considering Ange somewhat of an insurance against Battler in case he survived.

GreyZone · 2015-05-22, 10:31

I assumed that line was a "then he went on with telling me what happened" and Ange just "summarizing" it, which I see often being used in stories, when the author wants to avoid doing a flashback or a lenghty explanation by a character...

You know, like that line where some group asks someone what they know about an event, the person starts speaking, then a short timeskip and the whole group saying "so that's what happened..." I also saw this device being used in some RPGs as well. I guess we have to wait for the manga to show it in a little bit more concrete way.

AuraTwilight · 2015-05-22, 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSoreika

I haven't posted in a while but I have a few questions. I am doing a semi read through on youtube and twitch of umineko of the first four episodes with a friend of mine trying to see if is solvable in hindsight of knowing "the truth". We are goofing off and making jokes through the read through but at the same time it is giving me a lot of hypothetical questions and thoughts.

1. this may seem odd but I watched the anime first,read the last 4 episodes of the visual novel, read the manga, and now I am read the first 4. So, I am not sure I missed over it but where was it confirmed that Yasu was male at birth? I know it is extremely hinted at and I strongly believe that Yasu was born male but is there anything concrete?

2. I understand the reason why the tragedy happened in prime, but I wonder would it have still happened if rosa never found Beatrice II which and helped her to leave which lead to her death? I really would have liked to see what would have caused the tragedy if Beatrice II did not die and raised her child.

3. Speaking of Beatrice II I noticed she did not mention she had a child. I understand for plot reason but it seems odd that she was ready to just leave her baby like that. But then again she was in a extreme situation and she probably figured kumasawa would take care of Lion if she left.

I know these may seem like strange thoughts/ questions but I figure I need some where to put them. I will probably have more after I do my next reading tonight.

1) The EP8 Manga confirmed Yasu was born a boy.

2) There probably would've been no tragedy.

3) Given how ignorant she is, it's possible she was drugged during the labor and never realized she had a child, and the pregnancy symptoms were explained as a disease or something.

Levani · 2015-05-22, 13:37

Quote:

1) The EP8 Manga confirmed Yasu was born a boy.

I don't think it directly ever said that Yasu was born a boy. If I'm wrong, source?

Quote:

3) Given how ignorant she is, it's possible she was drugged during the labor and never realized she had a child, and the pregnancy symptoms were explained as a disease or something.

By the time Rosa sees Kuwa!Beato, she already gave birth to Yasu, right?

AuraTwilight · 2015-05-22, 13:46

Quote:

I don't think it directly ever said that Yasu was born a boy. If I'm wrong, source?

There's buttloads of implying evidence in the Red Confessions flashbacks, including Yasu standing over a toilet wondering why she isn't bleeding like other girls.

Quote:

By the time Rosa sees Kuwa!Beato, she already gave birth to Yasu, right?

Yea, she died that same day, remember?

Levani · 2015-05-22, 13:55

Quote:

There's buttloads of implying evidence in the Red Confessions flashbacks, including Yasu standing over a toilet wondering why she isn't bleeding like other girls.

Not wanna be an ass here but couldn't that also be interpreted as a girl who has a damaged body and doesn't get periods? It's heavily implied, yeah, but I don't think there's a direct confirmation that she was born a boy.

jjblue1 · 2015-05-22, 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levani

Not wanna be an ass here but couldn't that also be interpreted as a girl who has a damaged body and doesn't get periods? It's heavily implied, yeah, but I don't think there's a direct confirmation that she was born a boy.

There's no direct confirmation, yes. It just seems the most likely option because each additional info pointed that way yet Ryukishi is refusing to directly confirm this one so I guess everyone is free to place his bets on the cat he prefers, the dead one or the living one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I assumed that line was a "then he went on with telling me what happened" and Ange just "summarizing" it, which I see often being used in stories, when the author wants to avoid doing a flashback or a lenghty explanation by a character...

You know, like that line where some group asks someone what they know about an event, the person starts speaking, then a short timeskip and the whole group saying "so that's what happened..." I also saw this device being used in some RPGs as well. I guess we have to wait for the manga to show it in a little bit more concrete way.

I think the idea was that Ryukishi wanted to see if he could again trick us with subjective narrative. We get Ange's point of view. Is it reliable (as in she's just summarizing what Tohya is saying) or she's adding her own interpretation?

From the last chapter of the manga I'll say it's safe to assume Ange merely gave her own interpretation of things.
It'll be pretty natural for Tohya not to want to talk about the incident. He doesn't know if Ange read the diary and if she believed at what was written into it.

If he claims he doesn't remember he won't have to explain things.

And interesting enough Ikuko claimed that:

Quote:

His memory from around the time he was drowning in the ocean is hazy.

... meaning it can be he remembers stuffs prior to it (he escaped on the 6th so he should remember at least what happened of the 5th) even if it again lulls us into the belief he actually don't remember anything of what happened on Rokkenjima.

Okay, so it's my speculation and I'm curious to see if the manga will confirm it but still it's interesting.

haguruma · 2015-05-22, 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Dear God, Kyrie and Rudolf are fast killers.
I'm a bit confuse on what exactly happened.

Hum... Beato woke up and heard Kyrie and Rudolf talking... I'll take as they left she left as well searching for Battler.

They actually don't have to be that fast.
The manga gives the time as 1:05am. If we think back to EP7's Tea Party, it said that the adults witnessed the clock turning to midnight, and that was already when things where going downhill. So it could very well be that they had an hour on Sayo before she woke up.

The way the manga depicts it, she heard them talk as she drifted off and then woke up shortly after (likely due to the pain of her broken collarbone...ouch).

Quote:

Somehow Battler decided to go to the chapel... but evidently Kyrie wasn't the one who called him there as apparently she was already dead? And of course so Rudolf? So he reaches the chapel and Sayo finds him there and Eva is following them?
And somehow they manage to escape her?
Is that it?

It's actually the EP4 problem that many of us kinda assumed. While they are all circling the island there is also killing going on.

Sayo went out when Eva was still lying there. She immediately searched the sorroundings of the chapel and found George, then she went over to the mansion and found Jessica, and then to the cousins room and found Maria as well as Kumasawa.

Battler's sentence of "wanting to ask where the chapel is" implies the events of the EP7 Tea Party as well. Later in the tunnels he also asks if it truly was Kinzo's doing, implying that he was told the "test story".
He was asked to come to the chapel, but not knowing where it was he went to ask Gohda. He finds Gohda dead and runs to the dining hall, where he finds Jessica dead, from there he runs outside and finds Kyrie, leading him to believe that Maria (who left with him) is in danger but finds her dead, then he finally makes his way to the chapel and finds George and Rudolph, leading him to the Gold Room by accident.

EP7 already implied that Eva found Rudolph before Battler could get there and then headed immediately to kill Kyrie, which was close to the guesthouse. It seems like it was really a matter of minutes.

Quote:

I still think the ingot is a plot device as it was plainly stupid to hide one instead than a credit card (how do you convert it?) although it's hard to drown yourself while holding a credit card so an ingot was needed.

The fact that the rope was already tied to the ingot, which was placed in a boat no less, kind of implied to me that she was planning to commit suicide that way a lot longer and that it wasn't a spontaneous idea at all.

Quote:

The meta part is... interesting, I'll say.
Very meta.

Yeah, it's kind of awesome to have this connection of reality and fantasy now, where Beato from beyond the grave is trying to help Battler remember who they were. It's nice that even with all the deconstruction of the fantasy going on in the manga, it also adds little tidbits that still give us the oportunity to believe in whatever side we want to.

Quote:

Tohya never said he was split from Eva. He never mentioned escaping with her. It was Ange who assumed he was escaping with Eva as she had no idea he could have been escaping with Sayo.

Actually the new manga chapter makes and interesting little addition regarding the involvement of Eva in the same way as this misunderstanding goes.
When Battler starts thinking about who could be the murderer he goes by living people. When Sayo was circling the island she didn't stumble over Kyrie's corpse (likely missing the event by a few minutes). Then Battler says that, 'It couldn't have been that person, because she wouldn't do such a thing,' while thinking of Eva, yet Sayo keeps talking about the people she witnessed killing (Rudolph and Kyrie) who she believes to be still alive.

Since they apparently never got to clear that misunderstanding up (not being aware that it was one in the first place), this also explains the existence of EP3 now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjblue1

I think the idea was that Ryukishi wanted to see if he could again trick us with subjective narrative. We get Ange's point of view. Is it reliable (as in she's just summarizing what Tohya is saying) or she's adding her own interpretation?

I think so too.
And I think the narrative has made clear by now that, unless you see something with your very own eyes, you should always take it with a grain of salt.

And a few other things:

I liked how we have confirmation that there was a gun loaded with blanks mixed into the set. EP1 and 3 already implied as much, especially with how Eva managed to shoot Jessica in the face yet not injure her beyond burning her face and blinding her.
This also implies that Kyrie was fully aware of not being able to win against Eva in that duel and that she really did say all those horrible things to sway Eva towards keeping silent and protecting Ange.

Also, I love how we are still slightly kept in the dark about the actual events of most of the murders. We are shown the result in this chapter (which also shows that Genji was shot in the head and Kinzo is still in his freezer apparently) before the island explodes. If Kyrie really was such an isane murderer who enjoys carnage, why did she go for such a quick and (comparatively) low-key method like slitting people's (Nanjo, Kumasawa, Maria) throats?
Yes, Rudolph and Kyrie messed up big time, but they might also not be the monsters from Eva's imagination.

jjblue1 · 2015-05-22, 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

They actually don't have to be that fast.
The manga gives the time as 1:05am. If we think back to EP7's Tea Party, it said that the adults witnessed the clock turning to midnight, and that was already when things where going downhill. So it could very well be that they had an hour on Sayo before she woke up.

Hum... I'll re-read the Teaparty to see if I can make the bits fits. Though I guess I'll have to wait to see this chapter before working things out fully.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

The way the manga depicts it, she heard them talk as she drifted off and then woke up shortly after (likely due to the pain of her broken collarbone...ouch).

Hum... by the way... I didn't quite get how the guns worked. Sayo said there was a gun with the bullets removed but if she got a broken collarbone the bullets should have been in...
Besides since Rosa and Hideyoshi ended up getting killed either it was Kyrie and RUDOLF shooting at them or Kyrie definitely had a charged gun...

Hum... my lack of knowledge in how guns work is showing I fear...

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

It's actually the EP4 problem that many of us kinda assumed. While they are all circling the island there is also killing going on.

Sayo went out when Eva was still lying there. She immediately searched the sorroundings of the chapel and found George, then she went over to the mansion and found Jessica, and then to the cousins room and found Maria as well as Kumasawa.

Battler's sentence of "wanting to ask where the chapel is" implies the events of the EP7 Tea Party as well. Later in the tunnels he also asks if it truly was Kinzo's doing, implying that he was told the "test story".
He was asked to come to the chapel, but not knowing where it was he went to ask Gohda. He finds Gohda dead and runs to the dining hall, where he finds Jessica dead, from there he runs outside and finds Kyrie, leading him to believe that Maria (who left with him) is in danger but finds her dead, then he finally makes his way to the chapel and finds George and Rudolph, leading him to the Gold Room by accident.

EP7 already implied that Eva found Rudolph before Battler could get there and then headed immediately to kill Kyrie, which was close to the guesthouse. It seems like it was really a matter of minutes.

Well all this makes interesting how Tohya wrote his tales.
In Ep 3 he likely was sure it was Eva who hijacked the game.
In Ep 4 he wrote the plot using what he remembered happened that day (the test, him seeing the corpses, meeting with Beatrice, him being the last survivor) but interesting enough he doesn't place the blame on Eva anymore.
In Ep 5 the dark side of the adults is showing, as well as the fact he feels responsible and, at the same time, unable to stop the tragedy and we even have the adults arguing in the room of the gold.
In Ep 6 he remembers Sayo saved him and there was a cold blooded killer going around. In Ep 3 we had a hint Kyrie wasn't exactly a nice person but in Ep 6 she's a lot more explicit about it, deliberately claiming she wouldn't have hesitated to commit murder hadn't Asumu died first. There's also a hint she might have damaged Jessica's head.

In a way the games show us how he progressed in recovering his memory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

The fact that the rope was already tied to the ingot, which was placed in a boat no less, kind of implied to me that she was planning to commit suicide that way a lot longer and that it wasn't a spontaneous idea at all.

Well, that's the best explanation because otherwise escaping with a ingot is as useful as escaping with a rock. It would be too much trouble to convert it in cash and it's not exactly confortable to drag along...

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

Yeah, it's kind of awesome to have this connection of reality and fantasy now, where Beato from beyond the grave is trying to help Battler remember who they were. It's nice that even with all the deconstruction of the fantasy going on in the manga, it also adds little tidbits that still give us the oportunity to believe in whatever side we want to.

Well, psychologically speaking we can see Beatrice as the side of Tohya who still remembered things... his subconscious in a way... but I prefer the idea that Beatrice is trying to help him from her grave. Call me a hopeless romantic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

Actually the new manga chapter makes and interesting little addition regarding the involvement of Eva in the same way as this misunderstanding goes.
When Battler starts thinking about who could be the murderer he goes by living people. When Sayo was circling the island she didn't stumble over Kyrie's corpse (likely missing the event by a few minutes). Then Battler says that, 'It couldn't have been that person, because she wouldn't do such a thing,' while thinking of Eva, yet Sayo keeps talking about the people she witnessed killing (Rudolph and Kyrie) who she believes to be still alive.

Since they apparently never got to clear that misunderstanding up (not being aware that it was one in the first place), this also explains the existence of EP3 now.

I had this suspicion a misunderstanding was going around but I thought in the end Battler had figured things out... but maybe he didn't? Well, I don't blame him if he didn't...

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

I think so too.
And I think the narrative has made clear by now that, unless you see something with your very own eyes, you should always take it with a grain of salt.

True. But this also tempt me all the more to wish to see the manga with my own eyes! ^_-

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

And a few other things:

I liked how we have confirmation that there was a gun loaded with blanks mixed into the set. EP1 and 3 already implied as much, especially with how Eva managed to shoot Jessica in the face yet not injure her beyond burning her face and blinding her.
This also implies that Kyrie was fully aware of not being able to win against Eva in that duel and that she really did say all those horrible things to sway Eva towards keeping silent and protecting Ange.

It was said in the teaparty though that the gun should have only 5 bullets. As Kyrie surely shot 4 in the room of gold likely she recharged the gun. She and Rudolf are supposed to be expert. Didn't she realize they were blanks?

Though yes, it would also explain why she didn't shot to Jessica but had to kill her with her bare hands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

Also, I love how we are still slightly kept in the dark about the actual events of most of the murders. We are shown the result in this chapter (which also shows that Genji was shot in the head and Kinzo is still in his freezer apparently) before the island explodes. If Kyrie really was such an isane murderer who enjoys carnage, why did she go for such a quick and (comparatively) low-key method like slitting people's (Nanjo, Kumasawa, Maria) throats?
Yes, Rudolph and Kyrie messed up big time, but they might also not be the monsters from Eva's imagination.

Kinzo in the fridge is... I'll better not think at it.

Honestly I've always though they weren't bloodthirsty, just with their backs against the wall and ready to do everything.
Rudolf is in serious economical troubles with people who might want to kill him. They need that money and they've such a warm family and they can legittimately doubt that Eva, who always hated Natsuhi and Krauss, shot them by mistake so they had to go.
Rosa looked like the type who could have blackmailed someone for the rest of their life so she had to go as well.
Getting rid of the others in such situation for them might have looked like an act of self preservation.

I still think it's not a smart plan but it could have been more a spur of the moment plan due to the circumstances they were in.

Probably to Eva, who denies she would have been able to do the same (even if after Rosa's death she wasn't really mourning her... but well, it can be she wouldn't have been able to get that far), it was impossible to accept they were just cornered. It would force her to consider the possibility in their shoes she could have done the same.

And LOL, I'm still happy we got to see how Battler really was.

So far the Battler we saw was a construct of Sayo and Tohya so it could be he wasn't perfectly like himself but the one in this bit is likely the real Battler. It was nice to get to know him after so long.

Mali · 2015-05-23, 03:54

Too bad there are enough spoilers this time. oh I scan and go with them.
And Tohya also wrote Ep3 and 4?
This leaves me to the questions:
Was Ep7 (I mean the VN version) now written by Tohya from his memory or by Ikuko? I didn't like the idea that Sayo throw her confession with the other bottles in the ocean. Wiki says she found it by roadside.
What if ... Tohya is the personification of the bottle mail?

Why did Tohya try to make Sayo being the culprits in most in his stories? Dedicate them to Sayo? Were we supposed to solve them with Kyrie as the murderer?

Did Ikuko influenced Ep3 and 4?

Why introducing an another pattern in Ep5 + 6? Playing prank, Erika, knowing how to solve the epitaph...

Ayu-ayu · 2015-05-23, 08:32

That was amazing. I'm going to have to digest this one for a while. Thanks as always, Haguruma...this has been quite the journey!

I'm still not fully convinced just yet that Ikuko isn't Sayo. When Battler tried to save her from drowning and started to drown himself, she could have seen this and broken free of the gold and helped him back to the surface, only for him to have lost his memory. So she could have become Ikuko with the purpose of reviving/saving Battler. This makes for some fairly interesting parallels as another angle for the meta, too.

Well, I'll stick by that until the next chapter likely shoots it down...

AuraTwilight · 2015-05-23, 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levani

Not wanna be an ass here but couldn't that also be interpreted as a girl who has a damaged body and doesn't get periods? It's heavily implied, yeah, but I don't think there's a direct confirmation that she was born a boy.

There's also his in-character universe responses, where Lion says that their favorite class in school was Home Ec, then goes on a minor defensive tangent about how it's 'not a girl thing' and 'everyone should know their way around a kitchen'.

That's a pretty damn strong hint that Lion is a boy.

2015-05-21, 18:05	Link #35162
GreyZone "Senior" "Member" Join Date: Jan 2012	As far as I know there were always 2 possibilities presented: 1. Yasu was born male and after the "accident" lost his "ability to love" and then later on had all the "identity" problems because of that 2. Yasu was born female and after the "accident" lost her "ability to love" and then later on had all the "identity" problems because of that It seems more people believe that 1 is true, obviously because of "man from 19 years ago" and the chance to be very high that Natsuhi knew the sex of the baby... but then again we were never told if she didn't just receive the baby in full clothes like 3 minutes before she caused the servant along with the baby to die and therefore never even got to know the sex of the baby... there was also talk about Yasu being born hermaphrodite, but afaik that was dismissed as unlikely by the majority... __________________

2015-05-22, 07:52	Link #35165
haguruma Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Germany Age: 39	..... I will just post this for now and wait for answers... Spoiler for Chapter 37: When the Seagulls Cry: 1986 October 5th 1:05am Voices: Every kind of pretend get-along has vanished from this island Time to have some fun What about Battler? Is he gonna touch the billion? Only if he wants to die. I am soft regarding my own children But going so far as being nice to Asumu's child...that's asking too much tick Voices: If Battler doesn't go along with it I'm sorry, but that's it then tock tick tock Beato: I am alive...?! Why... I was definitely shot... ...ngh My shoulder? The collarbone? Uh... Is it broken?! Did Kyrie end up with the gun loaded with blanks that I mixed in? The damage is on my collarbone... and quite a big one where I bit open my lip... ...I am...alive... in this chamber full of corpses... Voices: If Battler doesn't go along with it I'm sorry, but that's it then Beato: It's likely... all over already anyway... I lost when the epitaph was solved Now they will murder anyone of us who stands between them and the gold Even all those who are so precious to me. (Rips the family-ring from her finger and throws it away) I won't let them die I won't let them die I won't let them die The gambling is over nobody has to die anymore LIVE (She finds George dead among some underbrush) George... san... George (memory): I swear that I will continue loving you for all my life Beato: ... Have to...go... ...hurry... They won't show any mercy! Battler and the others might already be in just the same danger! Where? Where are you Battler... Did we pass each other by somewhere? Or might you... already be...? Battler...! Huff... huff... huff... huff...! huff... (She finds Battler standing over the corpse of Natsuhi) Beato: Ba... Batt... ler... stomp stomp stomp Beato: !!! No he musn't...!! !! Battler: Wha... ?! tap tap tap Eva: ....... (Eva has returned to the Gold Room and picks up the ring that has fallen on the ground, likely following the two) Battler: Wait! Let me go! I said, let go!! ... wha... What is going on... What... what are you even... Battler (memory): Sorry Gohda-san, can you tell me where the chapel... DAD! EVERYONE! Gohda-san has been... (Battler finds Jessica next) I have to let everyone know (next is Kyrie) Maria is in danger...!! (then Maria) Shitshitshit...aaah!! (George and Rudolph) Damn, what's going on? (and arrives at the Gold Room) anyone... anyone!! Battler: They are all dead... They have all been murdered!!! A murderer has snuck onto the island... we must... call the police!!! Are you that Beatrice from that letter?! Did you do that... did you do that to them?! And me... you wanna kill me too?! Beato: ...no No, Battler-san! I want to rescue you... Battler: ... you know my name? ...rescue?! ...wait... That voice... Shannon-chan?! Why would you dress up as the witch...?! ....no Your shoulder... you've been attacked by the culprit too...?! Did you see who it was Shannon-chan?! Who...what kinda monster killed everyone? I...I'm gonna kill that bastard!! Beato: You...you can't! Enough bloodshed in this family!! Battler: In this... family?! You mean it was all that old fart grandpa?! Beato: No, please Battler-san, stop thinking...! Battler: Any other corpse I haven't seen would be... (Battler thinks of Eva) It...can't be... She...wouldn't do such a thing... Why did...why did this happen... among family... It's just stupid... We must... call the police now... Beato: We musn't go back We'll be killed We can't call the police...! No boat could come in this storm, and we can't leave either We can only hide ourselves right here... OUCH...!! ...ngh Please... don't go away. don't leave me alone... Battler-san... Battler: ....... .... Beato: If we follow this underground tunnel to the other side of the island, there will be a boat... if we wait there till the storm passes we could escape... Battler: Can't we do anything to capture the culprit before escaping? Beato: That's...no good I think Our opponent has guns and...no longer any qualms about killing people...unarmed we are easy prey... Battler: But...that old fart and Kanon-kun might still be safe Beato: ...no On this island there are now only us two and the culprit left Battler: ......... I can't even start to understand this... How did it even come to this... Shannon-chan... What and how far do you know things... why this outfit... Beato: ...Let's walk a little further, Battler-san They might find us here. ... I hope you will humble me and believe what I am to tell you, Battler-sama. You may despise me and shower me with words of abuse ...but I beg of you to listen... I am the human who is Shannon, yet also Kanon - Yasuda Sayo. As well as the third Golden Witch Beatrice. I have eagerly waited for your return. Battler: Shannon-chan...? Beato: I have finally laid out there what was so hard to say He would have never asked me Even though I wanted him to solve it Why am I suddenly so open about it? Because all gamble is at an end? If that was true, I could have just stayed silent Battler: I don't get it yet... So you were planning on killing us like you announced...? Beato: ........yes But they, your parents among them, ended up solving the epitaph and a dispute about the gold broke out... Sayo: I foresaw a quarrel like this... yet I did not stop it. Beato: No... even if it didn't end like this, I would have killed them anyway. Sayo: If you hadn't come back Beato: That's just an excuse I am the one who should be hated So many things went just like in my plans That is why this tragedy is my sin I was even planning on killing you It would be fitting if you were to kill me here now Battler: "Planning on killing" "me"... right?! I don't quite get it But you were in a lot of pain, right?! I wonder if I had solved the epitaph if I could have saved you. I don't think that you have sinned. If the plan fails it's just an attempt or something like that. And aren't you trying to rescue me right now?! Beato: Aah, from the very beginning Battler: I've managed to calm down a little because you are here too Thank you Shannon-chan Beato: I wanted to open up to you and beg for forgiveness I just wanted to feel at ease Battler...sa.... uh....uh... Battler: He..hey, it's alright Your shoulder hurts, right? Let's rest! Let's see I still got the candy that I got from Maria!! Beato: There were so many mysteries that I wanted to talk with you about So many things I wanted to talk with you about To have that day come to me at last.... tick tock tick tick tock tick tock TICK Beato: ...ah Battler: Oh, you're up. You were so tired, you slept like you were dead. Beato: Battler-san... do you know the time? Battler: Oh It's just past 11pm We did talk quite a lot Beato: !! It's not even 1 hour left to the explosion. Battler-sa... Battler: I can't believe it... Was it really just last night that we were having fun in the cousin's room? They're really gone. Maria, Jessica, even Aniki... It's really true, right? It's not a nightmare, is it... Beato: Battler-san... To see such atrocities with your own eyes, anybodys heart would break... He simply overdid it just like me last night... .... .... What's this loss of spirt, Battler?! Battler: ....Sha Shannon...chan? Beato: I...I am not Shannon! For I am the Golden Witch Beatrice! The house of Ushiromiya is the clan of the one-winged eagle! Do you think it suits an eagle to cower on the ground like this?! St...stand!! Battler: Wha...you... Beato: What's this? Show it to me! Your spirit! (Actually she tells him to call her omae and she will call him sonata, instead of the usual anta...it just doesn't translate, since it's all "you") Battler: Thank you. To be cheered up by a witch Beato: Come, Battler! I will lead you through the underground of my island! Battler: Wha?! Uh...Okay Beato: We have to hurry It will start to explode any moment now We have to run Battler: You're running to fast What about your shoulder? Beato: ...... This island will blow up at midnight! The explosion will cover a radius of 1km Battler: ?! Beato: There has been a timebomb like that set up on the island! According to calculations, we will be able to escape it at the far edge of the island Battler: Wha..... then what about everyone's bodies?! Beato: Any evidence and everything else will be blown away All of the truth will be locked up in the witch's catbox. Battler: Shit!! Wait! Are you okay with that? If everything is blown away, that includes all the bodies, even Aniki's!!! Why didn't you tell me this any sooner?! We might have been able to deactivate the bomb! Beato: A dead husk without a soul is only a cage of flesh...nothing but an object... Battler: What?! Beato: What would you gain by risking to go back? I told you, I want to rescue you! (Battler takes Beato on his back) Ba...Battler... Battler: It's because you asshole run to much!! Is this the right way? Beato: Yes Straight ahead Battler: Then shut up now! I would laugh my ass off if you bite your tongue and die before the explosion! tick tick tick tick tick tick Battler: UOOOOOOOH..... 1986 October 6th Battler: This is... Beato: The ruins of a former submarine base This is the place where me and you met in our past lives two generations ago Battler: Hahaha, it's kinda romantic if you say it like that Beato: Take this It's heavy (she hands him a gold ingot with rope tied around it) Battler: Wow Beato: It's a gold ingot I hid one away in case something like this would happen Have you steered a motor boat? Battler: Why should I have?! Beato: It's easy, I'll show you If you steer out there and go round the edge of the island you can see Nijima. Then you only have to head for any beach. Battler: You're not coming? Beato: I cannot go For I am the master of the Golden Land, so I cannot go. Battler: And what will you do here? Beato: What would I do there? Battler: Living! Beato: I cannot live I ave already committed countless sins in countless worlds called fragments. The number of lives I have taken, the number of sins... it's too high. Battler: That was all just attempts You haven't committed one sin in our world! Beato: You know that isn't true. This outcome is something that I brought about. Go forth As long as my mood is still good Before long I will shroud this island in a storm again. Battler: Well then... I will have to take you home as a souvenir from the Golden Land. Beato: Ba... Ba... Ba... Let me go...! This is dangerous!! Battler: Stop yapping already and listen to me Beatrice. I will run away with you! Beato: Ba... Battler: If you have sinned then I have done so too for leading you there So I ask you to led me share the burden of that cross I will help you shoulder that cross all my life Leave the Golden Land! Together with me. Beato: ... Will I ...be able to live though Battler: Of course You might not have a magical butler, but there are lots of things that don't exist on Rokkenjima First, let's get your shoulder fixed at a hospital...then I will show you the world Beato: Your world is too bright for a sinfull witch like myself... Battler: Just try and live If you want to make up for hundreds of sins then do so by living. Live life to the fullest of your potential that is the best way to atone for your sins. Beato: Is that... the only way? Battler: Yes And you will definitely atone for everything I believe that Beato: Battler... Battler: ... don't look at me all teary-eyed I'll get red... Beato: Kihihi I am sorry Then would you at least close your eyes? Battler: Wh... Why should I close my eyes? You're too close... Beato: What a foolish man You deserve a curse for lifting the witch from her Golden Land! Battler: ....! Beato: I told you to close your eyes! It's... embarassing... for me... Battler: Gargh Beato: Don't look! Don't look at my face!! Battler: Wha... It's not like anything would happen though...! Beato: Have you no shame?! Don't you open them! Battler: Why?! Beato: Be... because I want to kiss you one more time... Battler: What's wrong with you, this is embarrassing!! Nghn Beato: I'm sorry, Battler Am I not an inhuman devilish witch?! Battler: That you are! You are the worst and most cruel! Beato: That's why I won't atone for my sins! Instead I will roll about laughing about hundreds of deaths I am that kind of witch! Battler: You truly are... But that really is like you ..... .... ...Beato? (Beato tied the ingot to her leg with the rope and jumped) Beato: I though about wanting to die for so long If we left the island then you would learn about my cursed body I am scared of that So even though you forgive me I cannot forgive myself That time together was like a dream It was more bliss than I could bear I told you already I am the worst kind of witch, so I will not atone for my sins Living won't make up for them Foolish Battler... Even though you were so lucky to escape the island, you are willing to throw it away? The thought makes me happy But the worlds we have to go to are of a different kind I, who cannot live in the world of truth, will return to illusion and you should return to your own world, the world of humans. Farewell, Battler ....and thank you. Battler (illusion): You think I'd let you escape? You are my Golden Witch alone Beato: Stupid Battler... stupid Battler... Battler (illusion): If you long for the underworld, I shall sink there with you If you long for the world of oblivion, I shall disappear with you But until that last instance when we vanish you will be mine alone. Narration: The two of them became one and sank towards the underworld And in a world of only darkness where nothing can be seen, they became a golden rose and shone And softly it finally made its way onto the top of a tiny box, resting in a world of innocent, pure white sand. That is the catbox of Beatrice, resting peacefully at the bottom of a calm sea. This is a tale of the deep, deep bottom of the ocean. A so very modest tale of how a gently glowing golden rose is sleeping in the world of the darkness of the abyss... (within the meta-world tea-parlor) Beato: This is... The Golden Land...? No... This is the world I desired... the world of the catbox...? I ended up dragging you here with me... you who I wanted to live so much... You are so kind that you would jump in right after if somebody jumped right before your eyes. I should have anticipated this ...I should have known in advance and yet... Battler: Where...am I.... What am I... Why am I here? And who... are you? Beato: You don't remember anything? Anything at all? Is this our conclusion? Just continuing to sway around in this catbox along with countless fragments Without arriving anywhere? In this purgatory? No I am the Endless Witch, Beatrice I will keep on waiting for you on the summit of this very Mt. Purgatorio. So let us begin it here, what we could not bring to an end in our lifetime! A battle about whether it was a witch or a human. I will wait forever, until you rip the me that is a witch apart and find the me that is our promise. (a bottle shatters and reveals the title: Legend of the golden witch) This will surely be an eternal game and thus eternal torture. For you? For me? Let us hope that you shall weave a fitting conclusion for us both. Let us go towards our Golden Land! Last edited by haguruma; 2015-05-22 at 08:16.

2015-05-22, 09:53	Link #35167
GreyZone "Senior" "Member" Join Date: Jan 2012	There is still a problem with this. One of the following possibilities: Tohya's memories are SERIOUSLY wrong about the events (or he lied to Yukari for some reason) There was a retcon The "truth" presented here and/or the EP8 ???TP is/are just (a) lie(s) Reason for that being the fact that Tohya mentions something about "getting split from Eva in the tunnels". Here however they don't even meet Eva in the first place! But at least it would explain what happened to Battler just disappearing in EP7 TP all of a sudden. __________________

2015-05-22, 10:31	Link #35170
GreyZone "Senior" "Member" Join Date: Jan 2012	I assumed that line was a "then he went on with telling me what happened" and Ange just "summarizing" it, which I see often being used in stories, when the author wants to avoid doing a flashback or a lenghty explanation by a character... You know, like that line where some group asks someone what they know about an event, the person starts speaking, then a short timeskip and the whole group saying "so that's what happened..." I also saw this device being used in some RPGs as well. I guess we have to wait for the manga to show it in a little bit more concrete way. __________________

2015-05-23, 08:32	Link #35179
Ayu-ayu a.k.a. Akari_House Join Date: May 2003 Location: Somewhere near Seattle Age: 54	That was amazing. I'm going to have to digest this one for a while. Thanks as always, Haguruma...this has been quite the journey! I'm still not fully convinced just yet that Ikuko isn't Sayo. When Battler tried to save her from drowning and started to drown himself, she could have seen this and broken free of the gold and helped him back to the surface, only for him to have lost his memory. So she could have become Ikuko with the purpose of reviving/saving Battler. This makes for some fairly interesting parallels as another angle for the meta, too. Well, I'll stick by that until the next chapter likely shoots it down... __________________ --- (MyAnimeList banner on hiatus until I bother to update my MyAnimeList status again...)

2015-05-21, 17:37	Link #35161
TheSoreika Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Age: 34	I haven't posted in a while but I have a few questions. I am doing a semi read through on youtube and twitch of umineko of the first four episodes with a friend of mine trying to see if is solvable in hindsight of knowing "the truth". We are goofing off and making jokes through the read through but at the same time it is giving me a lot of hypothetical questions and thoughts. 1. this may seem odd but I watched the anime first,read the last 4 episodes of the visual novel, read the manga, and now I am read the first 4. So, I am not sure I missed over it but where was it confirmed that Yasu was male at birth? I know it is extremely hinted at and I strongly believe that Yasu was born male but is there anything concrete? 2. I understand the reason why the tragedy happened in prime, but I wonder would it have still happened if rosa never found Beatrice II which and helped her to leave which lead to her death? I really would have liked to see what would have caused the tragedy if Beatrice II did not die and raised her child. 3. Speaking of Beatrice II I noticed she did not mention she had a child. I understand for plot reason but it seems odd that she was ready to just leave her baby like that. But then again she was in a extreme situation and she probably figured kumasawa would take care of Lion if she left. I know these may seem like strange thoughts/ questions but I figure I need some where to put them. I will probably have more after I do my next reading tonight.

2015-05-22, 08:39	Link #35166
Levani 貴方が私のマスターか？ Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Georgia, Tbilisi	Holy shitfuck, did Ryu just... explain the damn beginning of Umineko!?

2015-05-23, 03:54	Link #35178
Mali Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2014	Too bad there are enough spoilers this time. oh I scan and go with them. And Tohya also wrote Ep3 and 4? This leaves me to the questions: Was Ep7 (I mean the VN version) now written by Tohya from his memory or by Ikuko? I didn't like the idea that Sayo throw her confession with the other bottles in the ocean. Wiki says she found it by roadside. What if ... Tohya is the personification of the bottle mail? Why did Tohya try to make Sayo being the culprits in most in his stories? Dedicate them to Sayo? Were we supposed to solve them with Kyrie as the murderer? Did Ikuko influenced Ep3 and 4? Why introducing an another pattern in Ep5 + 6? Playing prank, Erika, knowing how to solve the epitaph...