(CR) Honzuki no Gekokujou (Ascendance of a Bookworm)[anime]

[orion]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

^^All I can hear is "you are not using this word the same way I do" which is SEMANTICS. Cure/treatment/solution, whatever pal. Something went wrong with Maine and is in need of fixing.

To view it, we would need to know the "norm". It's prob not something wrong that needs fixing. It's that she's in the wrong socioeconomic level.

Lower class = magic would be a "disease" as it kills kids by a certain age because they don't have access to the training. Noble class = magic would be an asset probably as they have the tools to control their "talents".

And...if you reallly think dark, then the "Devouring" is a way to ensure that Nobles stay in power. As the only ones that could effectively oppose them are dying at a young age. The same thing could also be postulated about literacy and the availability of books for the lower class.

We don't have all the info on the anime side.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Zefyris

No. Every human is born needing to eat specific amount of things regularly , drinking, and part of his anatomy needs specific regular healthcare, but none of those material needs are sickness or ailment or anything. Being born with magic just apparently makes you need one more thing in your life to be ok. This is in no way the definition of a disease. Being born with magic doesn't need treatment since it's not a disease, therefore, being born with magic doesn't have a cure per se either. You cannot be cured from needing to eat. You can be cured from plenty of symptom/sicknesses provoked by your unhealthy or insufficient diet, sure, but this will not change in any way or form the fact that you'll still have the same requierment to be healthy from now on.

While her condition may require some kind of cure just like the lack of proper food for too long for example may require some as well, what we're discussing here is stopping her from being weak and fainting /dying like that. We don't even know if she would need something to cure her of the consequences of her lack of proper tool so far ON TOP of what was said to be necessary to avoid her current Devouring status, mind you.
You stop from being insufficiently nourished by eating enough proper food; providing again, that there was no health complication . This in itself is in no way a cure. Maine's situation is similar to that. If there is in her case complications on top of that supplementary, currently unfulfilled need, we haven't been made aware of it so far in the anime.

So, as far as we know right now, Maine's need for something to evacuate the surplus of magic is not a sickness but a natural need, and therefore, a cure is NOT what she needs to survive.

By that standard, a person with a condition that makes them unable to process certain vitamins "doesn't have an ailment" because they just need to consume something. And people with chronic conditions don't have "ailments" because they can't be eliminated, so they're just "a natural need". That's not how things work though. A person with chronic vitamin deficiency isn't just a person with a "natural need", she's a person with an ailment in the form of a physiological imbalance that requires treatment in the form of regular supplements. Main's condition is thus an ailment: it's a condition occurring in a small subset of the population, which causes enough damage to guarantee death within a few years without special methods to reduce or eliminate the "material" that is damaging the body. It doesn't make any difference that this method could hypothetically have a positive impact or be advantageous. Nor does it make a difference that there's an entire population of people with the same ailment.

[orion]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

By that standard, a person with a condition that makes them unable to process certain vitamins "doesn't have an ailment" because they just need to consume something. And people with chronic conditions don't have "ailments" because they can't be eliminated, so they're just "a natural need". That's not how things work though. A person with chronic vitamin deficiency isn't just a person with a "natural need", she's a person with an ailment in the form of a physiological imbalance that requires treatment in the form of regular supplements. Main's condition is thus an ailment: it's a condition occurring in a small subset of the population, which causes enough damage to guarantee death within a few years without special methods to reduce or eliminate the "material" that is damaging the body. It doesn't make any difference that this method could hypothetically have a positive impact or be advantageous. Nor does it make a difference that there's an entire population of people with the same ailment.

I think it does make a difference because our perspective is with the lower class. The lower class perspective would call this a disease. However, we don't have the Noble input on this. They are the class where this issue is "officially" occurring and is being dealt with. Our perspective of Main's status could be different if she was born to the upper class.

It's basically an extreme version of Harry Potter. He was raised by muggles, his condition is a curse, stigmatism, generally treated like crap. Born to wizards and it's "Hey, time to go to sorcery school and learn to be a better wizard." The class with the talents don't let the muggles know about them. Born to muggles without resources and the talented one dies in Main's case.

I suspect also that this is a reason why christening is late. It's weeding out those with "talents" so the Church doesn't have to deal with the mess of having someone with a "talent" born to the poor.

This title isn't as happy as it appears. There's a few SE injustices going on (lack of schools for poor, child labor just to name the big ones).

[BWTraveller]

I'd say it's somewhere in between. In a sense it is indeed an ailment: noble or not, without the use of certain tools death is guaranteed from a very early age. However, due to the fact that the nobility have access to those tools, the threat is eliminated while the benefits of being able to use magic remain, thus making it an advantage. Neither viewpoint is really right or wrong. As I said, there are conditions like that; not to nearly that degree, but there are conditions that can be debilitating without treatment, but also provide possible benefits that may remain after treatment is provided. As long as one's able to maintain treatment to prevent the debilitating aspects, the advantages can shine through and it can seem far from an "ailment", but once one loses access to such treatment it goes back to that once more.

Also, there's no evidence of a "stigmatism" or prejudice against people born with magic, noble or common. It's just that the treatment is so valuable that nobles can afford them but wouldn't give it up so easily. Sort of like if the only treatment was a diamond of the highest quality: the rich can afford them, but they likely can't afford to give some away without significant compensation.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by orion

I suspect also that this is a reason why christening is late.

Considering its role as a semi adulthood rite of passage, after which the kids are expected to become apprentices, I'd say it's early.

It's weeding out those with "talents" so the Church doesn't have to deal with the mess of having someone with a "talent" born to the poor.

It's not a mess, it's cheap, indentured magical labor.

This title isn't as happy as it appears. There's a few SE injustices going on (lack of schools for poor, child labor just to name the big ones).

Well... it's medieval.

[myopius]

Just watched the end of episode 7... that was certainly a creepy way to end the episode. Or maybe I'm just reading it as more ominous than it really is...?

In any case, I know that Main is surrounded by people like Otto who definitely appreciate her as a smart person.

Since episode 6, the story has finally started to pick up. Also, I love the end cards.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

<snip>
It's not a mess, it's cheap, indentured magical labor.

It won't be cheap or indentured long when the masses get power imo. They have kids faster than Nobles.

[BWTraveller]

Finally caught up. Sure enough Lutz knew. Nice that he accepted her. And, if I understood right reading through up to here, I think this's the first time Main herself confirms that she believes the original Main to be dead. Looked like up until now she hadn't really clearly shown what she though had happened, whether she'd reincarnated and suddenly got her memories back or had somehow been shoved into the recently-deceased body of a sick child, but here she spelled it out quite clearly. Noticed they cut the fancy paper part, where Main made the trombe paper extra fancy using a few simple grasses to create little decorative marks. While not suitable for mass-production, I'm sure there'd be a great market for trombe paper among the nobles.

[Kanon]

I liked the conclusion Lutz reached after hearing Urano's explanations. Urano's been in Main's body for a year, and the previous Main almost never left the house, so he actually knows Urano better than the original Main. Makes sense he would accept her. If her family were to find out the truth however, it wouldn't go as smoothly.

Anyway, after 8 episodes, she finally made paper!! Too bad the highest quality one was made from a very dangerous plant, but they've only tried two different trees.

[BWTraveller]

Yeah, that's a problem with abbreviation. Had to remove all the other trees they tested.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Wonder if Urano really needs any special item to control her condition or just training would do. It seems like she can wield it better than most seeing how she has lasted this long.

[Anh_Minh]

Technically she's only lasted a year.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Maybe it's due to my low expectation but Lutz' confrontation with Urano this episode is one of the most tense moments that I experienced from new titles in this season (not counting sequel seasons). I certainly didn't expect such drama from such young characters since I've been expecting this show to be pure SoL stuffs. But maybe it's those SoL stuffs before this episode that made me invested in the protags. Also, this show is cute but in a more natural way, not in a "specifically manufactured to be cute"-way like many other moeblob shows. It's good stuff.

Speaking of young protags, don't you guys think Lutz is a bit too mature for his age? I know that "too mature for their age (in more ways than one)" has become a staple of anime characters, but if you see Lutz' friends, they act more like proper children. Or maybe Lutz' maturity & intelligence is just that exceptional.

[Zefyris]

They actually tested lots of trees and lots of fruits/source for that sticky stuff combination and simply gave Benno the one that were a success, the anime had to abridge the paper making process a bit.
She's still going through trials and errors even know that she's starting to make real paper.

As for Lutz, yes he's level headed for his age compared to most child in that world, but still remember than most children are most mature in there due to starting apprenticeship at 7, and Lutz is a child who has to face his parents' opposition about what he wants to do, so the situation forces to mature even earlier.

[BWTraveller]

Yeah he's exceptionally mature. But yeah, he's grown up in a world that doesn't permit as much immaturity in children, at least not in peasant children. They have to grow up fast; they decide their future when kids of our world would be just starting school.

[Tenzen12]

I don't know about peasant children, but city kids showed fair share of immaturity, like when they were messing with clay tablets for example. They may be responsible for some chores from young age, but they seem to have pletny of free time to play around and be kids.

Lutz is easilly most mature of group (Meine included).

[BWTraveller]

Agreed. I wasn't saying he wasn't more mature than the others, only that one could expect a bit more maturity on average. He's still exceptional though.

[Tenzen12]

That's not that hard though. Those days even universities often look like kindergarden...

[magnuskn]

I find the first four pages of this thread incredibly ironic by this point.

[kukuru]

Originally Posted by orion

I think it does make a difference because our perspective is with the lower class. The lower class perspective would call this a disease. However, we don't have the Noble input on this. They are the class where this issue is "officially" occurring and is being dealt with. Our perspective of Main's status could be different if she was born to the upper class.

It's basically an extreme version of Harry Potter. He was raised by muggles, his condition is a curse, stigmatism, generally treated like crap. Born to wizards and it's "Hey, time to go to sorcery school and learn to be a better wizard." The class with the talents don't let the muggles know about them. Born to muggles without resources and the talented one dies in Main's case.

I suspect also that this is a reason why christening is late. It's weeding out those with "talents" so the Church doesn't have to deal with the mess of having someone with a "talent" born to the poor.

This title isn't as happy as it appears. There's a few SE injustices going on (lack of schools for poor, child labor just to name the big ones).

Umm you really want to cling to the word "magic" only because magic can be useful or extra-sensory powers.

Your only argument is that this "magic power" due to a generic mutation can be harnessed in some way, but that doesn't make it any less of a generic disease.

Let's be honest here, generic mutations are nothing we haven't seen anywhere and everywhere, and some of them may have beneficial societal properties like Gigantism for instance if you value height, but has a deadly story to it, since Gigantism almost always die of cancer. Again no matter how you can benefit from it, it's a disease.

I assume this work has less of a deadly other shoe dropping to having the magic gene, but it's still otherwise completely a life threatening generic mutation, commonly referred to as a disease.