2008-06-15, 08:09 | Link #361 | |||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Note, it doesn't mean nobody in the government knew. Just that Yuna wasn't one of those who did. And I think some in the military - like the guy who let them go, or her Seed bodygard - did know about it. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
As for taking a more public role between the wars to, well, avert the second one... Maybe she could have done something. Could she have done more? Canaver used up all her political capital in the Junius 7 treaty. Would Lacus have fared any better? She was elevated to near godly status by her actions in the First War, but her mystery-shrouded absence and Dullindal's PR also helped. Maybe they did most of the work. What would have happened in she stayed? And then, there is the other side: the EA, with whom she had no influence to speak of. How would they have dealt with a teenage girl leader? Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2008-06-15 at 16:16. |
|||||
2008-06-15, 16:10 | Link #362 | ||||||||||
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by monster; 2008-06-15 at 16:45. |
||||||||||
2008-06-16, 07:29 | Link #363 | |||||||
yare yare..
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
|
Quote:
But Lacus still didn't deploy Freedom, and Orb isn't bound by the treaty so what's wrong actually, with having Freedom mobile around Orb? Quote:
Just because you have the keys to something means you were the one who build/made that something? What if I pass my car keys to my friend for safekeeping? Is s/he responsible for building or buying my car? Quote:
Freedom was half-wrecked after the first war. Freedom was repaired by Orb. ZAFT never asked for it back. I think it's safe to think that from Destiny onwards, Freedom belongs to Kira. Quote:
Quote:
Freedom is stolen property in SEED, I don't deny that. But from Destiny onwards, that case has been put off. No one questioned who Freedom belongs to anymore because it is clear that it belongs to and signifies Kira. Quote:
But if no one is questioning your rights over it(especially ZAFT) even if they know you stole it, then you can say it's yours. It's like a silent "Okay, you can have it". Quote:
If ZAFT pardoned Lacus, then it is safe to say that Orb cannot have a say about it because I have yet to hear from Orb that one isn't allowed private possession of a mobile suit. Eidolon Sniper: 4Tran, Anh_Minh and I, even monstert, if I'm not wrong, have repeatedly stated why Lacus isn't subject to the treaty. I don't need to provide my own reason. This isn't a matter of opinion. Lacus didn't sign the Junius Treaty, therefore she is not subject to it. Unless you can apply how she violated the treaty, this case is off. However concerned Cagalli is about the treaty, Orb did not violate the treaty. ZAFT was using Orb's resources. Cagalli went to demand for ZAFT to return and cease usage of their resources. Orb is exactly as neutral as they could be. Kira and Murrue are not as stupid as to go back to a country that has betrayed them. Their ties with EA were cut off by EA themselves. I do not understand your thinking. Why is it that they must be hiding in Orb? Can't they stay in Orb? WTF? If I ever immigrate to another country, does that mean I'm HIDING? Not to mention Kira was originally a citizen of Orb. Lacus loves Kira. I think it's clear she'll follow him wherever he is. Do you really think Murrue wants to go back to a nation that has tried to sacrifice them as bait? Andrew, in any case, is officially dead and he chose to follow Lacus. Do you honestly think that even if Lacus was staying in PLANT, she would go by Durandal's beliefs and help him just like Meer did? She would have been assassinated anyway, wherever she was. Heck, even Durandal understood that Lacus would not help him. Thus, Meer's existence and Lacus's assassination. Otherwise, he would've went all the way to Orb to request for her aid.
__________________
Last edited by Neku; 2008-06-16 at 07:59. |
|||||||
2008-06-21, 12:35 | Link #367 |
Has a life IRL
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
|
But of course. Meer was an excuse for fanservice, and to prove how silly the CE plebes are in that they'll follow any big-busted popstar who says pretty phases.
Euphie was a not-so-subtle jab at how ridiculous a character like Lacus actually is when in a position of power. |
2008-06-21, 13:01 | Link #368 | |||||||||
Has a life IRL
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
|
Remember when Lacus was first recovered by the ArchAngel? Remember her job? That counts as a government official.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Anyone could have piloted the suit away. Lacus could have piloted it. She might not have been able to fight of any ways, but all the effort and intent in the theft of the Freedom was on her part, not Kira's. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Name a small, neutral country in which anyone is allowed to own, arm, and maintain their own heavy artillery or heavy armor weapon. Quote:
Treaties, laws, and regulations apply to you regardless of whether you sign them or not. In fact, I highly doubt you've signed any significant number of laws that you comply with every day of your life. Do you pay your electricity bill? Pay your taxes? Does your car comply with safety and emmission standards set by the government, standards which are increasingly set with an international consensus? If you've left your country, have you obeyed the laws of the country you went to? Did you register for a visa, as per international agreement? Lacus is not a country. No amount of fame, deification, or otherwise importance makes her equal in status or legality to a nation. The only halfway reasonable argument so far has been that a treaty won't apply if the person is out of the country. Which is actually not quite true, because nations are expected to enforce their sovereignty, and by extension their treaties, to all their citizens regardless of where they are, especially when the citizen is a former government official. Quote:
|
|||||||||
2008-06-21, 13:52 | Link #369 |
Kohaku Law Firm
Join Date: Dec 2003
|
Lacus Clyne is awesome precisely because she is a dictator and tyrant. I mean really who else hides a treaty breaking weapon of mass destruction under an orphanage? What a slap in the face it must be for EA and Zaft when the person who contributed greatly in bringing the peace treaty about went and completely ignored it?
Later on when she returned to space, instead of seeking peaceful solutions she holed her self up in a factory and built more hax mobile suits. Really her method of bringing peace is: Stop fighting, else I 'll get Kira to blow the crap out of all of you. This of course works wonderfully with Kiras no kill policy. Just imagine that you are one of those mobile suit pilots, with arms leg and head chopped off, set adrift in space by the monster that is Strike Freedom. Then Lacus's voice sounded from the radio: "Please stop fighting I just want to resolve things peacefully." Who wouldn't go for that? In short: Lacus the dictator- Pure Win Lacus the saint- What Gundam Seed were you watching? |
2008-06-21, 15:29 | Link #370 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Exactly, so why are you holding her responsible for the treaty as if she were a country? If the treaty puts restrictions on PLANT's military, than those restrictions are on PLANT's military, not on Lacus. The two are not synonymous. One is a country who signed a treaty regarding its military while the other is an individual who contributed nothing to that country's military force. Hence, her actions were not in violation of said treaty.
|
2008-06-22, 04:40 | Link #371 | |
Inglourious Buster
Join Date: Dec 2007
|
Quote:
|
|
2008-06-22, 09:01 | Link #372 | ||||||||||||
yare yare..
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
|
Quote:
You state she deployed Freedom in Destiny, therefore she violated the treaty as a government official. Lacus was labeled traitor way back in Seed. I don't see how she's still a government official of ZAFT in Destiny. Also, I don't think singing for ZAFT actually makes you a government official. Quote:
Whatever makes you happy then. Quote:
You have a problem? Quote:
Quote:
Also, are you implying that if someone robs you, you'd ask "Who are you?" instead of chasing him down, getting your stolen property back and handing him over to the authorities? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Treaties, no. Lacus, of the party - Clyne Faction, did not sign it. Therefore, she isn't obliged to go by the treaty. Quote:
__________________
Last edited by Neku; 2008-06-23 at 02:42. Reason: Just in case additions and grammatical error. |
||||||||||||
2008-06-24, 10:28 | Link #373 |
Tsubasa No Kami
Artist
|
@ Neku
Probably not a government official, but Lacus can't actually do anything aboard the Archangel if she wasn't signed onto it, like what Kira and his friends did in SEED. Lacus didn't want Kira to fight. See her reluctance when she hands him the keys from Pink chan. And this does go against the "Lacus is prepared since SEED" factor 4Tran was arguing about. Plotholes. Freedom was destroyed in SEED, at least I'm assuming that ZAFT knows this (top tier ZAFT). Archangel suddenly disappeared at the end of SEED. It would be ridiculous if they do ask for the Freedom back, cause it will cause a lot more writer mangling on Morosawa's part. They were surprised to see Freedom suddenly appear out of nowhere like that, and slicing up their entire fleets. The "assassins" didn't know Freedom was in the orphanage to hunt Lacus, tehy were all surprised when it showed up. And for the umpteenth time the manga doesn't paint Dully as the mastermind in the assassination attempt. No, she is bound to it, see Cagalli's reaction in the links I provided. Sigh. If Lacus has the moral obligation of fighting Dully the right way, then she'd do that, except Morosawa has her way with Lacus again. @ monstert Oh ho, and so her battalion does not qualify as an something of a military force? She has 2 WMDs and minor WMDs at her disposal and are able to fend off huge armadas of MS and other ships thrown in.
__________________
|
2008-06-24, 21:27 | Link #375 |
Tsubasa No Kami
Artist
|
Everything about the Treaty regarding a military is involved, it does not only limit itself to either side. Oh snap, if it were, then it MUST mean that guerilla groups that has Lacus kind of battalion as equally innocent of not breaking the Treaty as well?
__________________
|
2008-06-24, 22:31 | Link #376 | ||
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
2008-06-25, 04:28 | Link #377 | ||||
yare yare..
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Just because the manga doesn't, doesn't mean the anime didn't. Quote:
How does Cagalli's reaction link to whether Lacus is obliged to the treaty? Just because she was scared Orb might have broken it? Since you trust Durandal so much, you should believe him when he says they are doing nothing of the sort - using Orb's resources for military purposes thus breaking the treaty. He clearly stated they are not. Therefore what treaty is Orb breaking that makes Lacus breaks it too? Also, you can't say Orb is already breaking the treaty. According to the Junius Seven Treaty, Orb is banned from giving both sides any sort of military aid. ZAFT was recruiting the Coordinators in Orb who are holds the knowledge of Orb technology. Cagalli didn't want that to continue, therefore she requests for a ceasage. What part of that is breaking the treaty? If any side was breaking it, it was ZAFT, and of course, EA, for yet instigating another war. Yet Durandal assures her that that is not what's happening, didn't he? So, would you proclaim him a liar? What would be the right way? "I declare war to thee!"? But last I checked, Lacus was trying to stop the war. Yes, through Freedom. You have a problem? If you're suggesting that the right way Lacus should've took is "No! Please cease war at once! We agreed for peace!", then that'd be pretty stupid, wouldn't it? Yeah, they agreed. But they already went back on their own words too. What's the use of the treaty if people has already violated it? I don't give a damn if Lacus doesn't have the moral obligations you need her to have. Seriously, it's enough trying to find faults within a character you dislike, or you once liked, but now dislike. Just move on. Yet of course, if you plan to, I can entertain you still. Btw, I don't plan on this paragraph being a starting line of a side debate. Just take it, or leave it.
__________________
|
||||
2008-06-29, 00:25 | Link #378 |
Tsubasa No Kami
Artist
|
@ monstert
If it was just THEIR Treaty, then it would state so. Even if it WAS their Treaty, people like us can't just randomly break the Treaty if we like to, right? I mean, even if we're not their signatories or whatever. Respecting something like that could help a lot when it came to crying one side is doing foul deeds, and the person in particular isn't a hypocrite for doing so. Saying that one isn't a signatory to a Treaty does not mean that they can go around breaking rules that were outlined in that Treaty, especially more so if the person was to stand for everything that the EA and PLANTs would want to achieve in the long run. And even so, they also broke the Treaty in their own way (EA and PLANTs), which leads me to think that a Treaty didn't really happen, and it all was just a bad joke. >.>;; They still broke the Treaty. @ Neku Kira and his friends on SEED were made to be soldiers aboard the Archangel because they were given honorary dismissals or whatever before the Archangel crashlanded in the desert. Natarle was having a fit because they weren't military people and civilians should not be onboard the ship. But they (Kira and friends) enlisted into the EA anyways. Any more questions? So anybody could just get trained "Coordinators" and get themselves high tech ZAFT military equipment if they just know where to ask, mercenaries do that all the time. ZAFT only knew that the Freedom probably was destroyed, and the "assassin" reactions point to that. They didn't expect Freedom to appear suddenly out of nowhere. The Astray manga helped to tie in the loose ends why Kira survived the explosion in Strike's cockpit and was sent to Lacus, so it means a lot for the manga to confirm that Dully WAS indeed behind the assassination attempt. Cagalli was already worried because they are already breaking the Treaty and she specifically went to Dully to request that it stop. Orb was banned from giving help to either side, and even if it were some sort of goodwill project, it could mean Orb was helping PLANTs to the EA. And Cagalli/Orb was guilty of breaking the Treaty because they could've just flatly stopped it outright before a situation like that (what happened in Destiny ep 1) could happen. Lacus should also follow Cagalli's example, at least Cagalli was trying her best not to do anything that could break the Treaty outright. Also, Orb was banned from giving any kind of their technology to be used on either side as well, they could only use the technology that Orb has developed BEFORE the Treaty happened. Any Orb technology that they developed AFTER the Treaty and could be used by either PLANTs or EA is a big no-no. ZAFT wasn't at fault for doing so, because Orb allowed it to happen, they could've easily refused doing so. Which leads me to think that the Treaty was only a joke only to serve heated debates like these. It makes her a plothole character. She can do all of those things and not be penalized for it? It's kinda hypocritical for her to be stopping a war using Freedom and the Archangel to suddenly butt into wars that they have no right being IN. What they did was cause a lot of confusion on both sides. They didn't even bother explaining themselves. So what if they think they're doing the right thing? How could you explain those things to the guys killed in the Lohengrin blast, getting a sonic boom in that base where Lacus made her escape to space, and even Heine's parents, or even in the Destroy incident where they showed up again to cause even more confusion? Even if Lacus stops this war, people would still be discontent, but she will use her resources to stamp out all signs of a rebellion, even forcefully for that matter.
__________________
|
2008-06-29, 03:39 | Link #379 | |
Inglourious Buster
Join Date: Dec 2007
|
Quote:
|
|
2008-06-29, 05:39 | Link #380 | |||||
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
No, if it was not just their treaty, then it would state so.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||
|
|