Penguin Drum - General Discussion

[Solace]

I'm still pondering the ED sequence. This image caught my eye in particular:



Why? This is symbolized through the entire episode. In the opening narrative, the area by the window colored in Sho's blue, has two girl figurines. One with blue hair, one with reddish/pink hair. They're found again on the cup Himari uses for her toothbrush (the blue is next to Sho's cup, the reddish/pink is next to Kanba's). You find them again in the adverts on the train and station, talking about trash. When do you see the penguins for the first time? In color coded trash cans, each color just like the siblings hair. Note that each penguin ends up assigned to each sibling in that same color order. The clothing these girls wear is always similar to Himari's costume.

Too much coincidence, but it could mean anything.

EDIT: Upon rewatching the crazy symbolized sequence before the end, Sho and Kanba are handcuffed inside the bear thing. Note that Sho is surrounded by blue and Kanba is surrounded by pinkish/purple. Maybe I'm reading into this too much. O_o

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

I don't think..... it is that hard for a girl to be pregnant...

If that is the final goal, it will be much easier to get it done with with some other guy with one-night-stand(s), than getting romance with your sibling, especially there are two very caring of them.

Ah, you missed my argument; the Princess of Crystal is forcing one of the brothers to make a move on Himari. As I say, what Himari as a humanbeing wants doesn't matter, Survival Strategy is making decisions for her now.

Himari is very likely not attracted to her brothers at all, nor is she desiring a child. But Survival Strategy do NOT ask for permission for anything.



(The ultimate dark side of Survival Strategy, is rape. I am not sure if the anime would go that far, but that is the ultimate heartless conclusion of Survival Strategy. Have a child via any means necessary, no matter how much pain and suffering it brings to the world.)

[BluWacky]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Spoiler for chart speculah:

Going by the chart info alone, we can clearly see that Kanba certainly gets ridding on more than one train (hurrr) and that Ringo seems to also have a partner Penguin around as well (she is also after the Penguindrum, and ahead apparently).

Spoiler:

The note about the sibling's relationship to Ringo on that chart is "promising lead on the Penguin Drum". It doesn't say she's looking for it, or that she's "in the lead" - it says that she IS a lead, she's a clue.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

As far as homosexuality is concerned, Survival Strategy treat it the same way as people who never have children or people who never found a mate. In the Natural world, 90% of the new born population is produced by 10% of the previous generation. So the number of animals that never breeds were always meant to be high. Humans are unusual in that we live so damn long now; in the wild most of us should have died by the time we are 30 years old. Homosexuality is just a blip in the statistics that has no effect on the population as far as Survival Strategy is concerned.

Which is where things get weird. The cultural aversion to homosexuality made the assumption that the person would otherwise have kids. But that isn't the case; it is now perfectly acceptable to say in public that you never want children ever. But if the anti-gay people are suppose to follow logic (which they don't), they would have had to spread their hate to those who live their whole lives without having a single child to their name too.

I'm less concerned with how Homosexuality works in the real world than how homosexuality would be treated by such a thing as a survival strategy. If incest is not against it but a last resort then that would characterize homosexual as a non resort for survival in its book.

EDIT:
I just want to write one last thing. Survival Strategy is NOT your friend. It doesn't take orders from humans, it shapes our actions and we only have limited means to fight against it. In the case of the sick and dying Himari who wasn't going to get to breed, she is considered non-existent and put on the ignored corner together with people who are sterile, unable/unwilling to have kids or not interested in the opposite gender.
So...

Crazy Theory Time!

Could it be that the incest is Himari's survival strategy? She is short on time, who knows how long her resurrection would last... Himari does not have time to find a boy, date him, and conceive a child before expiring. It could be that the only way for her own specific genes to survive is if she gets impregnated ASAP... And that means getting one of her brothers to do the act.
Ideal? Far from it. But for a girl who was suppose to be already dead, this is a "get on the lifeboat" emergency. No, this isn't what a human girl would want. This is what Survival Strategy wants.

I still don't buy into the sexual element but this is still interesting. Though I can natural see a survival strategy being something that goes against your free will which as human beings we care about as much if not more than just living.

Originally Posted by Solace

I'm still pondering the ED sequence. This image caught my eye in particular:



Why? This is symbolized through the entire episode. In the opening narrative, the area by the window colored in Sho's blue, has two girl figurines. One with blue hair, one with reddish/pink hair. They're found again on the cup Himari uses for her toothbrush (the blue is next to Sho's cup, the reddish/pink is next to Kanba's). You find them again in the adverts on the train and station, talking about trash. When do you see the penguins for the first time? In color coded trash cans, each color just like the siblings hair. Note that each penguin ends up assigned to each sibling in that same color order. The clothing these girls wear is always similar to Himari's costume.

Too much coincidence, but it could mean anything.

EDIT: Upon rewatching the crazy symbolized sequence before the end, Sho and Kanba are handcuffed inside the bear thing. Note that Sho is surrounded by blue and Kanba is surrounded by pinkish/purple. Maybe I'm reading into this too much. O_o

I don't what to think about that. Honestly I just put them aside cause I don't think we'll get a good grasp of their purpose till later. They could actually be real people. I was assuming because of what they were wearing that they might be previous bodies this penguin has inhabited as their is only one penguin that so far is black the others are blue. If they transformed into them I'd assume they'd also wear blue clothing.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Ah, you missed my argument; the Princess of Crystal is forcing one of the brothers to make a move on Himari. As I say, what Himari as a humanbeing wants doesn't matter, Survival Strategy is making decisions for her now.

Himari is very likely not attracted to her brothers at all, nor is she desiring a child. But Survival Strategy do NOT ask for permission for anything.



(The ultimate dark side of Survival Strategy, is rape. I am not sure if the anime would go that far, but that is the ultimate heartless conclusion of Survival Strategy. Have a child via any means necessary, no matter how much pain and suffering it brings to the world.)

Wouldn't it easier to control Himari (which the Princess has already done) than manipulating her brother?

Still i think we should wait a bit more for speculation. Now there is just too many possibilities to be happened. How many episodes this series have again?

That is probably the best aspect of this show. We are not clear on which direction it is heading to. The only sort of show that can probably rival Madoka for this year anime, i guess

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Wouldn't it easier to control Himari (which the Princess has already done) than manipulating her brother?

You expect the Princess of Crystal to actually do grunt work personally?

It seems already that she is into giving orders. Direct controlling Himari through the hat would mean she has to do everything herself. I don't see such an arrogant and holier-than-thou personality to be willing to do that.

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

I'm less concerned with how Homosexuality works in the real world than how homosexuality would be treated by such a thing as a survival strategy. If incest is not against it but a last resort then that would characterize homosexual as a non resort for survival in its book.

And there is nothing wrong with that. That's my point; it is no longer an abominable idea to not want children, though no doubt many cultures find that idea shocking. Just ask any parent demanding grandchildren from their offspring.

Homosexuality is contrary to survival strategy, but that isn't a crime any more than anyone else who never spawn an offspring. Survival Strategy is not morality; hell, it is downright immoral, with everything down to rape and murder being okay in its book if it meaning passing down genes.

In short, Survival Strategy is a wild and violent force that created life as we know it, but is not in any way benevolent. Human society in many ways exist to fight this instinct.

After all, rape is a crime.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

You expect the Princess of Crystal to actually do grunt work personally?

It seems already that she is into giving orders. Direct controlling Himari through the hat would mean she has to do everything herself. I don't see such an arrogant and holier-than-thou personality to be willing to do that.

In my defense, the series (and the Princess) will be much more sexy heading into that direction

Joking aside.... No. I really don't think it will happen. Unless she was sent down specifically for that task. I means the aliens in Blue Drop did go BOOM for fun (not really!), so who knows what these sentinel have in their... eh... penguin hats

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

And there is nothing wrong with that. That's my point; it is no longer an abominable idea to not want children, though no doubt many cultures find that idea shocking. Just ask any parent demanding grandchildren from their offspring.

Homosexuality is contrary to survival strategy, but that isn't a crime any more than anyone else who never spawn an offspring. Survival Strategy is not morality; hell, it is downright immoral, with everything down to rape and murder being okay in its book if it meaning passing down genes.

In short, Survival Strategy is a wild and violent force that created life as we know it, but is not in any way benevolent. Human society in many ways exist to fight this instinct.

After all, rape is a crime.

Look, I have no idea how we got on this issue of morality. I certainly wasn't try to make any moral point but dealing only in how something like a survival instinct would treat homosexuality. Like you said it's contrary to survival strategy at least in the way we've hypothesized it. Which is really the only point I was getting at.

And I'd agree that survival strategy would at times go against morality, if it is as we think. The yearning to survive might make murder, rape, and a lot of other things certainly against the majority of moral codes, opinions.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

Look, I have no idea how we got on this issue of morality. I certainly wasn't try to make any moral point but dealing only in how something like a survival instinct would treat homosexuality. Like you said it's contrary to survival strategy at least in the way we've hypothesized it. Which is really the only point I was getting at.

And I'd agree that survival strategy would at times go against morality, if it is as we think. The yearning to survive might make murder, rape, and a lot of other things certainly against the majority of moral codes, opinions.

Just to make clear, I hope I didn't turn out sounding hostile. It just seems like I might have offended you in some way and I apologise if that was the case.

I was merely doing my usual over-analysis of this show, mixed in with my understanding of what Survival Strategy means scientifically. And then stir that up with the hypothesis that the Princess of Crystal might be the human personification of Survival Strategy, which explains her arrogant posture.

All this from just episode 1. A theory that, while grand, might not even survive the next episode before being ripped to shreds. Ikuhara speculation has that kind of risk associated with it.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Just to make clear, I hope I didn't turn out sounding hostile. It just seems like I might have offended you in some way and I apologise if that was the case.

I was merely doing my usual over-analysis of this show, mixed in with my understanding of what Survival Strategy means scientifically. And then stir that up with the hypothesis that the Princess of Crystal might be the human personification of Survival Strategy, which explains her arrogant posture.

All this from just episode 1. A theory that, while grand, might not even survive the next episode before being ripped to shreds. Ikuhara speculation has that kind of risk associated with it.

Yea, I agree its quite possible none of our theories but it'll be great if some of them do. Speculation does lead to a lot of interesting ideas.

I, too agree that the Princess of the Crystal is arrogant and I think that might be an important factor later. I don't think even the other penguins like her since they seemed none too happy to have her standing on their heads. It seemed pretty demeaning to me and seems to fit her character so far.

[Lenneth4]

Loved the first episode so much that i watched it over 20 times now...

i know , i have a big problems.

anyway , when for the enxt episode?

can't wait for the enxt fabulous episode xd.

in the end i saw alis in wonderland in close up before the brother kiss her.
probably a hint about the anime

Porbably the only anime to be close or even better than madoka !
kunihiko is really back.

[VinForSpi]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

In short, this isn't about love or sexual pleasure, but why both of these things exist; to function as a survival strategy of the species.

You're welcome! And I definitely agree with your assessment! Like I argued in my post, the difference between humans and animals is the ability to love (and the sexual pleasure derived from loving). Therefore it makes sense that, in the transformation sequence, Freudian imagery exists but doesn't have any of its usual ties to love and lust as you aptly pointed out.

That being said, I think you make a good clarification when you say that "incest is NOT an enemy of Survival Strategy. Instead, it is simply the last resort." Even though I label incest as a deviation, it is still something that can be found in nature just as homosexuality is (which I highly bet is going to show up in this anime sooner or later).

I'm not sure where I stand on your theory about Himari's Survival Strategy though it does make sense in the framework we've been given.

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Excellent observation, VinForSpi. Just one thing about it I would say that it looks more like a cross between the model of the universe we seen back at the doctors office and a model for time, hinting at the penguins arriving from the end of their destination (end of time?) rather than the world per say.
.

Yeah, I noticed that too and I think you're correct about linking the model with the planet. But, going back to the very, very beginning of the transformation sequence we get this bit:




We're actually starting from the universe stand point. We're zooming past a bunch of stars until we get the planet blow out of proportion compared to the rest of the Milky Way galaxy. The fact that the planet has a clock on it definitely shows its link to time, but then in continues to zoom in until we get the metaphoric timeline showcasing evolution means that, in this context, it makes more sense for it to be a planet (something smaller) than the universe (biggest thing).

But yeah, it definitely does show that the Princess and the penguins have arrived at the end of the destination. The Princess does, after all, say that she comes from "the destination of your fate." Destination means location, Fate is the product of time (which indicates that the Princess possibly comes from the future).

And @ Slick_rick: I'm going to side with Vallen on this one too because there been documented sightings of animals practicing homosexuality so it's not the "antithesis" but more like what Vallen says is the "last resort." Again, it's a deviation, not something completely out of the blue.

Therefore, like I said, the cruelty of Survival Strategy isn't that it acts on the person's deviation--things that he or she knows that are not just socially taboo, but also going against the common sense of animistic law--but it seems to (hasn't been explicitly show yet so I'm just extrapolating here) remove the strong emotions (the passion, the love) that he or she has for the person.

In other words, it's essentially turning them into animals.

[Dist]

This series would be good story wise.. but.. what's up with that art? Do you really have to have guys with the eyes and eyelashes of girls -_-. Blushing when not necessary was annoying as well. Is this supposed to be shojo or something.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Dist

This series would be good story wise.. but.. what's up with that art? Do you really have to have guys with the eyes and eyelashes of girls -_-. Blushing when not necessary was annoying as well. Is this supposed to be shojo or something.

Well, Ikuhara loves shoujo. So it's true to his style to look for a character designer with such roots, and Lily Hoshino is primarily a BL artist, which is a subset of shoujo.

So I suppose you could say this is shoujo Ikuhara style. There's nothing quite like it.

Would like to know the demographic for the novel adaptation though.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by VinForSpi

And @ Slick_rick: I'm going to side with Vallen on this one too because there been documented sightings of animals practicing homosexuality so it's not the "antithesis" but more like what Vallen says is the "last resort." Again, it's a deviation, not something completely out of the blue.

Therefore, like I said, the cruelty of Survival Strategy isn't that it acts on the person's deviation--things that he or she knows that are not just socially taboo, but also going against the common sense of animistic law--but it seems to (hasn't been explicitly show yet so I'm just extrapolating here) remove the strong emotions (the passion, the love) that he or she has for the person.

In other words, it's essentially turning them into animals.

But homosexuality could never be a resort of a survival strategy. If we're talking about the procreation of a species then its as productive as abstinence. It occurring in Animals is something I know already but it doesn't really change the point. You can definitely consider incest as a last resort in some sense though no homosexuality. Any kind of survival instinct should reject homosexually just like it would get rid of inhibitions about incest in order to survive.

If I follow the reasoning of the theory I would expect to see this issue raised at some point, if it pans out. Now, please no moral tangents. I just stating how my reasoning is flowing.

Originally Posted by Dist

This series would be good story wise.. but.. what's up with that art? Do you really have to have guys with the eyes and eyelashes of girls -_-. Blushing when not necessary was annoying as well. Is this supposed to be shojo or something.

Director of Sailor Moon and Revolutionary Girl Utena...

[VinForSpi]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

But homosexuality could never be a resort of a survival strategy. If we're talking about the procreation of a species then its as productive as abstinence. It occurring in Animals is something I know already but it doesn't really change the point. You can definitely consider incest as a last resort in some sense though no homosexuality. Any kind of survival instinct should reject homosexually just like it would get rid of inhibitions about incest in order to survive.

If I follow the reasoning of the theory I would expect to see this issue raised at some point, if it pans out. Now, please no moral tangents. I just stating how my reasoning is flowing..

I was just thinking of examples of homosexuality occurring in animals and I just thought of two examples, one being a couple years back, there were those two male penguins at that zoo who took care of an abandoned child.

There's also the case of the lesbian albatrosses that actually happened in the wild. I'm too lazy to find the actual article, but in any case, these point out to that homosexuality can be a survival strategy: not for the actual individual, but their race. That is, when there are an excess/abandoned children, homosexual couples band together to take care of them. I guess you could consider it a form of population control?

And yeah, I agree with you: I think good analysis should be on the basis on the argument, not on one's own sense of morality. I don't think it's wrong to cast personal judgement, just that it has it's own separate place.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by VinForSpi

I was just thinking of examples of homosexuality occurring in animals and I just thought of two examples, one being a couple years back, there were those two male penguins at that zoo who took care of an abandoned child.

There's also the case of the lesbian albatrosses that actually happened in the wild. I'm too lazy to find the actual article, but in any case, these point out to that homosexuality can be a survival strategy: not for the actual individual, but their race. That is, when there are an excess/abandoned children, homosexual couples band together to take care of them. I guess you could consider it a form of population control?

And yeah, I agree with you: I think good analysis should be on the basis on the argument, not on one's own sense of morality. I don't think it's wrong to cast personal judgement, just that it has it's own separate place.

Yes, but that's those animals raising children together which is different than them procreating which each other. Again that doesn't really go against anything I said. As far as I understand their is no animal species that can propagate without a male and female together. If a species were down to a "last resort" as incest is put forth as, then certainly homosexuality would be going against that.

My main thinking would be if we have something like a survival strategy that causes you to have incest then we can also say that it won't care if you're homosexual either. It would take away your free will to choose in order to propagate itself. If love the person or hate that person it would be all the same to something like that.

[Kagayaki]

^ Actually, the New Mexico Whiptail is a species of lizard with only females. They reproduce asexually, but still perform mating rituals and "mate" in order to cause hormonal changes that will maximize reproductive success. So basically, it's a species of lesbians.

That should kill the idea that homosexuality can be of no use to any animal species, although I don't know if this has any symbolic bearing on the show.

source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis#Reptiles

Parthenogenesis has been studied extensively in the New Mexico whiptail (genus Cnemidophorus), of which 15 species reproduce exclusively by parthenogenesis. These lizards live in the dry and sometimes harsh climate of the southwestern United States and northern Mexico. All these asexual species appear to have arisen through the hybridization of two or three of the sexual species in the genus leading to polyploid individuals. The mechanism by which the mixing of chromosomes from two or three species can lead to parthenogenetic reproduction is unknown. Because multiple hybridization events can occur, individual parthenogenetic whiptail species can consist of multiple independent asexual lineages. Within lineages, there is very little genetic diversity, but different lineages may have quite different genotypes.

An interesting aspect to reproduction in these asexual lizards is that mating behaviors are still seen, although the populations are all female. One female plays the role played by the male in closely related species, and mounts the female that is about to lay eggs. This behaviour is due to the hormonal cycles of the females, which cause them to behave like males shortly after laying eggs, when levels of progesterone are high, and to take the female role in mating before laying eggs, when estrogen dominates. Lizards who act out the courtship ritual have greater fecundity than those kept in isolation, due to the increase in hormones that accompanies the mounting. So, although the populations lack males, they still require sexual behavioral stimuli for maximum reproductive success.[19]

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Kagayaki

^ Actually, the New Mexico Whiptail is a species of lizard with only females. They reproduce asexually, but still perform mating rituals and behaviors in order to cause hormonal changes that will maximize reproductive success. So basically, it's a species of lesbians.

That should kill the idea that homosexuality can be of no use to any animal species, although I don't know if this has any symbolic bearing on the show.

source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis#Reptiles

Still irrelevant. That's asexual and why would a creature resort to a survival strategy like this if it was asexual. Even you somehow found a creature, extremely unlikely, it still wouldn't change my point for the vast majority of cases. Their is no real need to look for obscure examples to try to disapprove me.

[Kagayaki]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

That's asexual and why would a creature resort to a survival strategy like this if it was asexual.

Well, lizards lay more eggs or something after they have sex. So these lizards still have sex for the hormonal stimulus, even though their eggs don't need to be fertilized.

I'm not quite sure what you were asking here, but does that answer your question?

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

Their is no real need to look for obscure examples to try to disapprove me.

Oh, well I was just skimming through the thread, and I saw your last post, and I remembered the example from a biology class. I just thought people in this discussion might think it was interesting. I'm not out to get you or anything, trust me

I agree that the example I gave probably doesn't change how we should interpret the themes of the show. I'm not even sure how you guys got onto this topic anyways, so I won't respond re:homosexuality or lizards in this thread to avoid being off topic.