(CR) Witchcraft Works [anime]

[AmeNoJaku]

Originally Posted by Bafflement

I believe there was an interview with the mangaka for the series where she said she combined ideas from two different series she had planned to make this one, one of which was a shoujo ai series. The point was that a lot of Honoka's traits, including his name, are taken from a standard female protagonist.

Originally Posted by kujoe

You should see his room...

On a more serious note, I can't help but think that if Honoka were a girl with the same traits, some people would be still annoyed, but it's ok... Kagari is just saving a cute girl who can't use magic.

However, since Honoka is actually a guy who ends up relying on a girl, it's even looked more down upon.

If Honoka was a girl, it would be too insulting to watch.

[Random Wanderer]

Since I have an open double-standard about these things, I'd be much happier if Honoka was a girl. I don't like male anime characters in general, to the point that, when reading previews for shows in an upcoming season, if a series is listed as having a male protagonist it is instantly crossed off my watching list until and unless later reviews convince me that it is actually interesting. And in almost every case I conclude that it is interesting despite having a male character in it, rather than because of that.

At the moment Honoka is less irritating that most male protagonists are. I mostly just find him boring, although that stunt with the bullies also failed to impress me. I don't think I'd be pleased if a female character had done that either, although I have a harder time imagining a girl trying things that way.

[mangamuscle]

*staying focused on WCW, skipping some unpleasant comments*

Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku

I guess you are referring to Luke, who wasn't useless for more than half an hour, rather inexperienced and naive. Nevertheless, the original Star Wars still had a very young demographic... until a certain scene in the last film. The new trilogy for preschool kids, I won't even try to discuss.

1. YOu fail to realize that half an hour is more than 1/3 of the film, by the same metric in a 12 episode series you should wait at least until episode 4 to start saying whether he is useless.

2. Luke was inexperienced and naive but honoka is useless, talk about double standards.

3. WCW is NOT marketed to male teenagers, no ifs, ands or buts. This is not my personal opinion, it is a fact that anyone can see for themselves. The manga lacks the furigana reading on the kanjis, so only people that have finished high school can fluently read (as in, people 18+ years old). it could be argued that we are talking about the anime, but I fail to see any elements that dumb down the plot or that incorporate elements that would cater to teenagers (like rap or similar songs in the op like in Log Horizon, or sound effects like the "dun dun dun" in outbreak company).

[AmeNoJaku]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Since I have an open double-standard about these things, I'd be much happier if Honoka was a girl. I don't like male anime characters in general, to the point that, when reading previews for shows in an upcoming season, if a series is listed as having a male protagonist it is instantly crossed off my watching list until and unless later reviews convince me that it is actually interesting. And in almost every case I conclude that it is interesting despite having a male character in it, rather than because of that.

At the moment Honoka is less irritating that most male protagonists are. I mostly just find him boring, although that stunt with the bullies also failed to impress me. I don't think I'd be pleased if a female character had done that either, although I have a harder time imagining a girl trying things that way.

If Honoka was a girl, it would be too insulting to watch.

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

*staying focused on WCW, skipping some unpleasant comments*

1. YOu fail to realize that half an hour is more than 1/3 of the film, by the same metric in a 12 episode series you should wait at least until episode 4 to start saying whether he is useless.

2. Luke was inexperienced and naive but honoka is useless, talk about double standards.

These are off-topic, and I won't continue arguing here about them.

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

3. WCW is NOT marketed to male teenagers, no ifs, ands or buts. This is not my personal opinion, it is a fact that anyone can see for themselves. The manga lacks the furigana reading on the kanjis, so only people that have finished high school can fluently read (as in, people 18+ years old). it could be argued that we are talking about the anime, but I fail to see any elements that dumb down the plot or that incorporate elements that would cater to teenagers (like rap or similar songs in the op like in Log Horizon, or sound effects like the "dun dun dun" in outbreak company).

I have no idea where you heard this, but 12YO are expected to have mastered 1000 kanji and by highschool 2000 in order to read newspapers. Furigana you find in manga accessible for 12YO and lazy 15YO. By middle school a kid should be able to read with ease manga without them.

Another thing that you are confusing is the target audience and plot complexity. Witch Craft Works has an interesting setting and characters, and in general the storytelling is decent, considering that one character occasionally ruins it. This is the only cacophony, a protagonist that doesn't belong to the story, not because he is useless/inexperienced, but because he belongs to a different genre altogether. As already pointed out there is some background for this, refer to those posts for why.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku

I have no idea where you heard this, but 12YO are expected to have mastered 1000 kanji and by highschool 2000 in order to read newspapers. Furigana you find in manga accessible for 12YO and lazy 15YO. By middle school a kid should be able to read with ease manga without them.

I have studied japanese for three years and if you think 2000 kanji is good enough to read the daily newspaper or manga without furigana you are deluded to say the least.

Another thing that you are confusing is the target audience and plot complexity. Witch Craft Works has an interesting setting and characters, and in general the storytelling is decent, considering that one character occasionally ruins it. This is the only cacophony, a protagonist that doesn't belong to the story, not because he is useless/inexperienced, but because he belongs to a different genre altogether. As already pointed out there is some background for this, refer to those posts for why.

I would agree with that kind of comment in another series (like in Freezing, the male lead and the whole freezing concept can be removed and make the narrative more agile). But in this story he is a center-piece for the plot, remove him and like in jenga it would fall apart.

BTW, did anyone noticed that when they were in the gym we get some chibis when Kagari says "That is my butt", in any other anime we would have had a closeup of her ample derriere being caressed, there is NO fanservice at all in this series >_<

[AmeNoJaku]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

I have studied japanese for three years and if you think 2000 kanji is good enough to read the daily newspaper or manga without furigana you are deluded to say the least.

I was living there several years

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku

If Honoka was a girl, it would be too insulting to watch.

A matter of perspective. Given that the show would then be about two girls, one of whom is strong and capable and one who is not, it could hardly be said to be promoting negative sterotypes of women.

Though let me ask you this: if Honoka being a woman would be insulting, what makes you think Honoka being a man isn't insulting? If the character's behavior is a problem, then it's a problem regardless.

[CrowKenobi]

How about we get back on topic about the anime and take the OT to VM or PM (and quit the sniping!).

[AmeNoJaku]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

A matter of perspective. Given that the show would then be about two girls, one of whom is strong and capable and one who is not, it could hardly be said to be promoting negative sterotypes of women.

Though let me ask you this: if Honoka being a woman would be insulting, what makes you think Honoka being a man isn't insulting? If the character's behavior is a problem, then it's a problem regardless.

It's personal bias. I hate damsels in distress, because it's an anachronistic stereotype for women, but when applied to men, I find it at least cute, despite hindering storytelling and character development... and that's development, not random empowerment

Originally Posted by CrowKenobi

How about we get back on topic about the anime and take the OT to VM or PM (and quit the sniping!).

Finally

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Though let me ask you this: if Honoka being a woman would be insulting, what makes you think Honoka being a man isn't insulting? If the character's behavior is a problem, then it's a problem regardless.

I'm not sure someone who just admitted he had a double-standard in regards to characters and their gender should really be saying this...

Can you really not understand why it's a bigger deal to put a guy in the "princess" position than it is a girl?

[Random Wanderer]

Since I think this is part of the OT that CrowKenobi was warning us about, I'm going to drop out of this debate.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku

If Honoka was a girl, it would be too insulting to watch.

Actually, on this, I'd agree.

However, in Honoka's case for some reason I find it 'forgivable' in a sense, when he relies on the girl simply for more often than not, the opposite is prevalent in anime. The point of the premise of the show was to twist that expectation around and play around with it, in purpose.

And besides... maybe it's just another instance of the story afffecting expectations, but I find it difficult to imagine Kagari going for some macho or 'manly' or action hero guy. It just doesn't 'work' for some reason.

[Dekomori Sanae]

Just watched ep. 3, and right at the beginning, I was like this:



The five witches (Tanpopo&Co.), the only proper adversary up to now, which they took some time introducing, and which they devoted the entire ED to, still don't get any even remotely decent fights because Ayaka is so ludicrously overpowered she needs just twitch her little finger to send them flying. That's just really poor writing, and it's getting annoying by now. This is even more pathetic than Team Rocket

Surprisingly, we saw a first actual adversary (that Chrono Schwarz girl) who had more power than the next fly on the wall, at least in relation to Ayaka, and thus couldn't be swatted that easily... until Ayaka suddenly pulled a Super Mario Super Ayaka transformation out of her anus (well, perhaps she was eating some strange mushroom while we weren't looking) and then beat the other witch easily again

The fights so far have been really lame, especially the pathetic encounters with the five witches. I seriously hope the fights will still improve quite a bit, especially the encounters with the five witches.

Originally Posted by Anime Online

Honoka is just dumb. He jumped off a flying broom without the knowledge of how to conjure his own flying broom. I was disappointed he didn't splat on the tarmac. Of course he was saved at the last second. Guts and hot-blooded determination wins the day! Anyway, he then crashed into the muggers and would have received a beating. And of course Kagari appeared and saved him.

It's just a mugging. There's no real need to risk your life over the bit of money a high school student would be carrying around. And worse, because of Mr Dumb, both him and Kagari became visible to normal people, and she broke the tenet of the Workshop Witches.

I'm tired of Honoka always doing something dumb and relying on Kagari to bail him out. I have no doubt he'll munch on the candy at some point in some misguided attempt at heroism, and get Kagari into more trouble.

Wanting to help the threatened girl was definitely the right thing, but jumping off the broom without being able to fly was really suicidial. He should've made a splat and get a Darwin Award for it.
That's Honoka's worst trait. While he does have courage and does want to do the right thing, which is commendable, he never thinks about his actions beforehand, not even for a split second, making him do the most stupid things - it's way beyond foolhardy already, this time it was totally suicidial even. Hope he gets at least a tiny bit of "think before you act" soon.

Honoka's actions on seeing that incident were highly questionable, with her being, "I don't give a damn."
At first she tries an excuse that they're supposedly ordinary girls, and that she can't use magic against ordinary girls. (Who knows if that's true?) Even then, this excuse is flimsy at best, as she certainly could've chased them away even without magic, had they been real ordinary girls.
After Honoka suddenly learns to fly a few centimeters above ground, he conveniently crash-lands on the mugger girls despite having no control over the broom. Then it conveniently turns out that the girls actually are witches, so she can used magic against them.
That's all pretty contrived. If she knew they were witches, then that would've been all the more a reason to help that girl, who was in much bigger danger than if the girls would've been ordinary girls. So why didn't she want to help? Too damn lazy?
That "trap" stuff she then comes up with also reeks of excuse.

[Tempest35]

...no, the girls weren't witches at all - they were normal muggles.

Kagari just 'rationalized' that anyone who tries to hurt Honoka must be a Tower Witch (regardless of whether or not they actually are such). She knew they weren't but damnit her Princess was about to be raped by unsavory types so of course she blew them up. Kagari is a VIOLENTLY PROTECTIVE girlfriend - make no mistake.

[Random Wanderer]

The girls weren't witches. Kagari, however, has an extremely focused mindset. There is no processing space in her brain for anyone who isn't an enemy witch trying to hurt Honoka. They screwed up the comedic timing on her final statement, but it is clearly meant to be a point where you either laugh, or smack your forehead at her foolishness when you realize that her entire spiel about how that was a trap designed to lure Honoka due on their understanding of his personality is based on absolutely no evidence other then them trying to hurt him.

[greensoulreaper]

I'll admit though, it's sometimes hard to tell if Ayaka is joking or not because she always wears a dead pan expression.

[Razdent]

Originally Posted by Dekomori Sanae

The five witches (Tanpopo&Co.), the only proper adversary up to now, which they took some time introducing, and which they devoted the entire ED to, still don't get any even remotely decent fights because Ayaka is so ludicrously overpowered she needs just twitch her little finger to send them flying. That's just really poor writing, and it's getting annoying by now. This is even more pathetic than Team Rocket

You're assuming way too much. The ED heavily featuring them does not mean that they are some kind of integral part of the story. You can't expect Medusa's minions to be on par whatsoever with Ayaka. That would be stupid (poor writing). If Ayaka was just an average witch assigned to protect Honoka it would be more likely that the tower witches would be able to stand their ground but that's simply not the case. From what I can remember they are mostly there for comedic purposes or to serve as an obstruction for Honoka and Ayaka. If their antics aren't funny to you then to each their own I suppose.

Originally Posted by Dekomori Sanae

Surprisingly, we saw a first actual adversary (that Chrono Schwarz girl) who had more power than the next fly on the wall, at least in relation to Ayaka, and thus couldn't be swatted that easily... until Ayaka suddenly pulled a Super Mario Super Ayaka transformation out of her anus (well, perhaps she was eating some strange mushroom while we weren't looking) and then beat the other witch easily again

What? Ayaka didn't beat Chronoire. Chronoire came prepared to confirm some things with the both of them (demonstrating to Honoka that he has a contract with Ayaka and making Ayaka display her real power). She also dropped by to give Honoka the pill. She clearly had no intention of fighting Ayaka at all. It was all just basically her way of greeting the both of them for future confrontations.

Originally Posted by Dekomori Sanae

Wanting to help the threatened girl was definitely the right thing, but jumping off the broom without being able to fly was really suicidial. He should've made a splat and get a Darwin Award for it.
That's Honoka's worst trait. While he does have courage and does want to do the right thing, which is commendable, he never thinks about his actions beforehand, not even for a split second, making him do the most stupid things - it's way beyond foolhardy already, this time it was totally suicidial even. Hope he gets at least a tiny bit of "think before you act" soon.

Agreed with his action being suicidal. If I was cynical I would say that he did it knowing Ayaka would be forced to take action and thus knew he wouldn't be in any real danger (of course that's not his personality). However, he did think about his actions enough to tell her not to be close to him to avoid damage transfer.

Originally Posted by Dekomori Sanae

That "trap" stuff she then comes up with also reeks of excuse.

That sums it up right there. It's heavily implied (or rather, by the end of the scene it should be fairly obvious) she just made up an excuse to Honoka to justify her actions. Those girls weren't witches at all.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by icbm3747

That sums it up right there. It's heavily implied (or rather, by the end of the scene it should be fairly obvious) she just made up an excuse to Honoka to justify her actions. Those girls weren't witches at all.

Am I missing something? Why are some people taking this part so seriously?

[greensoulreaper]

Originally Posted by kujoe

And besides... maybe it's just another instance of the story afffecting expectations, but I find it difficult to imagine Kagari going for some macho or 'manly' or action hero guy. It just doesn't 'work' for some reason.

I would say it's all about the balance. I mean I always see all kinds of different stories where there's always one "big" guy paired with a "little" guy and they have different characteristics but become best buds. It always plays out that way.

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by kujoe

Am I missing something? Why are some people taking this part so seriously?

Some people are just naive and take up everything said by characters without thinking why the said person would say such things.

in other words, they just want things to bash the show on, without realising that it's making them look stupid.