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Von Himmel · 2009-01-06, 08:49

^
I thought medically, they're still considered alive. If I remember it correctly, their body function is still alive, but weak. Weak enough so that they can be considered as dead themselves. But they're alive.

*sigh* I can't think anymore. . Forgive me Beato-sama . .

Looking at EP 4, how much cases that we can solve now ?

**Klashikari** · 2009-01-06, 10:06

That won't work at all because there isn't any roundabout word used in her red text, and it is even more insisted with quite an emphasis on "murders".

Ithekro · 2009-01-06, 14:15

Something that struck me...the magic battles and various demons, witches, and things...could very well be what a child could convert the murders and other nasty happenings into in there minds. One thought is Maria's mind...and Anje's mind. But since Eve got involved to some extent...is it possible that some of this is taken out of temporal context? That some of these events happened to other people when the parents were little kids and just the images of it gets shown to the players now out of context? (That shouldn't work, but some of the happenings are getting a little stranger than others, plus two time frames are already involved).

k//eternal · 2009-01-06, 17:34

So I was thinking a little about the whole "fugu poison zombies" thing, and while "dead" is pretty unambigous, that could actually cheat a pretty key definition, maybe.

Spoiler:

Cola91 · 2009-01-06, 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by k//eternal

So I was thinking a little about the whole "fugu poison zombies" thing, and while "dead" is pretty unambigous, that could actually cheat a pretty key definition, maybe.

Spoiler:

I think instant death means inability to act after being attacked but I don't remember red text about it that well so I don't know

Also I hope it's not as you said since it would look like parasites (again) and I don't like it very much

k//eternal · 2009-01-06, 18:10

Let's see:

Quote:

Well, in its full meaning, it could take several seconds or even minutes for them to die.
But no matter what, it would be completely impossible for them to take any action of their own will.
In that sense, I can state that they died instantly!

Cola91 · 2009-01-06, 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Let's see:

Quote:

Well, in its full meaning, it could take several seconds or even minutes for them to die.
But no matter what, it would be completely impossible for them to take any action of their own will.
In that sense, I can state that they died instantly!

mh.... that actually leaves space for doubt but even so I doubt this is a "human" way to explain the murder... can you explain how controlling one's will is possible without magic (and parasites hopefully XD).

PS: unlike Battler you can't get away with "I don't need to explain that!"

Rias · 2009-01-06, 18:33

A weird speculation of Rosa and her "affairs"

Spoiler for ep4:

k//eternal · 2009-01-06, 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cola91

mh.... that actually leaves space for doubt but even so I doubt this is a "human" way to explain the murder... can you explain how controlling one's will is possible without magic (and parasites hopefully XD).

PS: unlike Battler you can't get away with "I don't need to explain that!"

Certain types of drugs that make people highly vulnerable to suggestion, for instance. Not saying all instant kills are "faked" in this way, but a couple key ones, perhaps?

BTW, irrelevant, but there's a town in Japan called Ayukawa, or "sweetfish river". Maybe that's been mentioned before, but in ep. 3 its solution apparently involved the use of an atlas, so I thought there might be some relevance?

Cola91 · 2009-01-06, 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rias

A weird speculation of Rosa and her "affairs"

Spoiler for ep4:

Lol if this gets any more connected to Higurashi I'm gonna die XD

Anyway... would someone be so kind to post the translation of all the lies (blue text) from ep4? ^^

I apologize if i missed them...

chronotrig · 2009-01-06, 18:57

Spoiler for rules for red text:

Ithekro · 2009-01-06, 19:04

As long as the red text truths don't break down into "from a certain point of view" level of truth.

k//eternal · 2009-01-06, 19:10

But isn't that a problem?

Spoiler:

Goose Boy · 2009-01-06, 20:56

By the way...

Spoiler for Question to those who readed EP4:

And refering to the theme of chess:

Spoiler for Chess:

Cola91 · 2009-01-07, 17:14

Spoiler for question about ep2:

you know since we can only trust red I want to make sure ^^

Edit: Man... we really need a colored text archive thread XD

Keriaku · 2009-01-07, 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cola91

Spoiler for question about ep2:

you know since we can only trust red I want to make sure ^^

Edit: Man... we really need a colored text archive thread XD

I just finished rereading that part a few days ago, and I'm 99% sure they said in red that there was only 1 key to the chapel.

Turtleen · 2009-01-07, 22:20

Yeah, Beatrice said it, that was when red text was first introduced so it was one of Battler's first questions.

Has there ever been red text saying that it's absolutely impossible for someone to come to the island during the typhoon? I don't remember seeing anything like that.
It's probably extremely unlikely considering that well, there's a typhoon, who would want to take a boat out on the ocean...? There could be no more than 17 living people on the island at a time. Just a random thought since Kinzo having died already, and lowering the maximum occupants to 17 puts some holes in the fulfillment of the witch's epitaph.

Ithekro · 2009-01-07, 22:21

Didn't it say there were no more than 18 humans, alive or dead, on the island?

Goose Boy · 2009-01-08, 21:00

Spoiler for EP4:

ClockWorkAngel · 2009-01-08, 21:15

Oh however we must remember this

Spoiler for Red!:

2009-01-06, 08:49	Link #361
Von Himmel エーレンフェストの聖女 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Dollars	^ I thought medically, they're still considered alive. If I remember it correctly, their body function is still alive, but weak. Weak enough so that they can be considered as dead themselves. But they're alive. sigh I can't think anymore. . Forgive me Beato-sama . . Looking at EP 4, how much cases that we can solve now ? __________________ 「何かが起こっても、わたくしが守ります」

2009-01-06, 10:06	Link #362
Klashikari 阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180 Graphic Designer Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Belgium, Brussels Age: 37	That won't work at all because there isn't any roundabout word used in her red text, and it is even more insisted with quite an emphasis on "murders". __________________ [Sig art: Kagura Yuu, Nunukko, Maku Rako & Mishima Kurone] / [Twitter]

2009-01-06, 14:15	Link #363
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Something that struck me...the magic battles and various demons, witches, and things...could very well be what a child could convert the murders and other nasty happenings into in there minds. One thought is Maria's mind...and Anje's mind. But since Eve got involved to some extent...is it possible that some of this is taken out of temporal context? That some of these events happened to other people when the parents were little kids and just the images of it gets shown to the players now out of context? (That shouldn't work, but some of the happenings are getting a little stranger than others, plus two time frames are already involved). __________________

2009-01-06, 17:34	Link #364
k//eternal do you know ベアトリーチェ様? Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 35	So I was thinking a little about the whole "fugu poison zombies" thing, and while "dead" is pretty unambigous, that could actually cheat a pretty key definition, maybe. Spoiler: When Beato talks about "instant death", she says the victim becomes incapable of acting on their own will. However, if they can act by someone else's will, they are technically (by the given definition) "instantly dead". Basically, if the person can be thoroughly controlled, and die before they regain control, they are considered to be instantly dead. Is such a thing actually doable?

2009-01-06, 18:33	Link #368
Rias Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003	A weird speculation of Rosa and her "affairs" Spoiler for ep4: Recall the scene where Maria found out the train ticket to Atami, where Rosa's mood complete turned around becuase of that. Atami -> Hot springs Hot springs -> Hot springs man Akasaka Then the Hokkaido crab trip -> Ooishi...? __________________

2009-01-06, 18:57	Link #371
chronotrig Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Buffer overflow	Spoiler for rules for red text: Hmm...I wonder if that actually matters, k//eternal. I think ep4 shows us that some of the supposed 'rules' for red text aren't really rules. Since none of the rules for using red text other than the red tells the truth have been said in red, it's probably naive to assume that those rules exist, especially since some of these closed rooms seem pretty close to impossible without twisting words. And the biggest one is when Beato expands on the red text using white text. I assumed that these explanations counted, and so did most people up until now, but ironically enough, that assumption has been destroyed by the red text itself. You can't trust any words that aren't red. Nice job Battler, you may have accidentally given us one of the biggest clues yet. And that isn't all. If we assume that suddenly choking or reverting to white text, like Battler did, is all that stops people from saying untrue red text, then after they've gotten those words out, it doesn't matter what they say next because those words can't become unsaid. And thinking about it logically, what if someone had run by and sliced Beato's head off after the red text but before the explanation in white? Unless Ryuukishi's got a huge death-note-esque set of rules for that sort of thing, the whole system of red text breaks down. I think it's likely that you can only say red text if what you intend the words to mean is true, as long as the words can technically mean that. __________________ "The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable." --Hitchhikers www.witch-hunt.com Theory page

2009-01-06, 19:04	Link #372
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	As long as the red text truths don't break down into "from a certain point of view" level of truth. __________________

2009-01-06, 19:10	Link #373
k//eternal do you know ベアトリーチェ様? Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 35	But isn't that a problem? Spoiler: It's not like red text exists outside the meta world, which implies the entire incident could be a fabrication. What now? Everyone dies before they reach the island? X, Y, and Z were killed... when their boat crashed on some rocks and sunk? If no words that aren't red can be trusted, then does this mean the only trustworthy information we have occurs in the meta world?

2009-01-06, 20:56	Link #374
Goose Boy Happiness witch´s followe Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Venezuela Age: 30	By the way... Spoiler for Question to those who readed EP4: Did battler said that the kanon´s murder in ep1 was a trap? And refering to the theme of chess: Spoiler for Chess: As chess has a lot of influence in the umineko universe, there should be in fact 16 people to line up with the 16 people in chess. But there are 17 people, so one of them should be the culprit, and the should be one each time (no accomplices as they compete in the other side), this is somewhat supported as maria dies anyways in the end of each episode, and she is the witch´s "accomplice". If the culprit is different in each episode, the previous culprit will be in the other side, but the golden eagle servants, nanjo and those who are witch kinzo are obviously accomplices as they didnt said anything about kinzo´s dead, this way to simplify things in chess pieces is useless. So I dont even know why im writing. Another question: Did Kinzo was " alive " in ep4? ( stupid question ) Last edited by Goose Boy; 2009-01-06 at 21:14.

2009-01-07, 17:14	Link #375
Cola91 Member Join Date: Oct 2008	Spoiler for question about ep2: was it ever said in red in EP2 that there is only one key that opens the chapel door? because I remember only the "in-game" characters said so (in white obviously) you know since we can only trust red I want to make sure ^^ Edit: Man... we really need a colored text archive thread XD Last edited by Cola91; 2009-01-07 at 18:15.

2009-01-07, 22:20	Link #377
Turtleen Member Artist Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Ontario / BC Age: 31	Yeah, Beatrice said it, that was when red text was first introduced so it was one of Battler's first questions. Has there ever been red text saying that it's absolutely impossible for someone to come to the island during the typhoon? I don't remember seeing anything like that. It's probably extremely unlikely considering that well, there's a typhoon, who would want to take a boat out on the ocean...? There could be no more than 17 living people on the island at a time. Just a random thought since Kinzo having died already, and lowering the maximum occupants to 17 puts some holes in the fulfillment of the witch's epitaph.

2009-01-07, 22:21	Link #378
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Didn't it say there were no more than 18 humans, alive or dead, on the island? __________________

2009-01-08, 21:00	Link #379
Goose Boy Happiness witch´s followe Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Venezuela Age: 30	Spoiler for EP4: She has now lowered the number to 17

2009-01-08, 21:15	Link #380
ClockWorkAngel Aspiring Aspirer Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Somewhere Over The Rainbow, Canada Age: 32	Oh however we must remember this Spoiler for Red!: Since red text = the truth. She gave out a big inconsistentcy. That means in Ep3 There was an 18th person other than Kinzo __________________ Credit To Risa-chan!