Whats the differnce between MH Shizuru and MO Tomoe

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

At least Tomoe for now doesn't seem to pretend she is doing her evil deeds for someone else which helps me like her more than Shizuru. But I suspect she will eventually pull a Shizuru when caught and will pretend that she has done everything for Shizuru's benefit.

So you prefer her to pretend someone else did it? And to call her henchwoman "useless garbage" even though Miya not once betrayed her...

Indeed, Tomoe didn't pretend to do evil deeds for someone else. Instead, she pretended her evil deeds were DONE by someone else.

Are you actually suggesting that MO Tomoe is more honest than MH Shizuru?

EDIT:
MH Shizuru BELIEVES that she was doing everything for Natsuki's benefit. Especially after she thinks Natsuki was lost to her. She killed the 1st District not so she could win Natsuki, because she had gave up by that point.

Since when did Shizuru "pretend" to help Natsuki? When? Because I can't find such an example. You can't pretend to do something when you are actually doing it. Natsuki hates the 1st District and wants to destroy it. That's a fact. Shizuru destroyed 1st District. That is also a fact. You can't deny that Shizuru helped. You also can't deny that Shizuru had gave up trying to win Natsuki's heart by that point, which was the whole point of her madness.

As I said, and I will say it again. If Shizuru simply wants to own Natsuki, as an object and plaything, she has enough power to do so by force. But she wants to love and be loved.

Her insanity did not start until Natsuki rejected her.

[Matrim]

Are you actually suggesting that MO Tomoe is more honest than MH Shizuru?

Yes, but I meant that Tomoe seems more honest to herself as far as I can tell. Shizuru deluded herself that she was killing for Natsuki's sake (which was kind of impossible since Natsuki tried to make her stop) while Tomoe is doing her deeds without such justification, at least up to now. Her modus operandi seems to be "I hate Arika therefore Arika must disappear", not "Well, the circumstances force me to do it". But as I said I expect that to change.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Matrim

Yes, but I meant that Tomoe seems more honest to herself as far as I can tell. Shizuru deluded herself that she was killing for Natsuki's sake (which was kind of impossible since Natsuki tried to make her stop) while Tomoe is doing her deeds without such justification, at least up to now. Her modus operandi seems to be "I hate Arika therefore Arika must disappear", not "Well, the circumstances force me to do it". But as I said I expect that to change.

I suppose Natsuki merely wants to have a nice chat with 1st district, then?

I personaly believe Natsuki wants Shizuru to stop because she doesn't want Shizuru to kill for her. A natural reaction, especially when realising that someone you cared about is killing under your name.

What did you think Natsuki's intention was for the 1st District?

And what did you think 1st District would have done had they caught Natsuki during one of her spying missions?
EDIT:
And one other point... What makes you think Tomoe would be at "Shizuru's level" if she claimed she did it all for Shizuru's sake? That would just be another lie, won't it? What makes that any better or worse than she already is now?

Are you saying it's better to be an evil liar who knows full well what she's doing and do bad things intentionally, than to be a mentally imbalanced woman who did bad things because she isn't in control of her own thought processes?

[Matrim]

I suppose Natsuki merely wants to have a nice chat with 1st district, then?

Well, she never struck me as someone who would go and kill all of the First District personnel in their headquarters as Shizuru did but that's not really the issue. I don't think Natsuki wanted for instance Haruka to "die", never mind Shizuru killing for her or not.

What makes you think Tomoe would be at "Shizuru's level" if she claimed she did it all for Shizuru's sake? That would just be another lie, won't it?

It depends on whether Tomoe would believe what she claims or not. If not, then it would be just another lie. If yes, her justification would be basically the same as Shizuru's in MH.

MH Shizuru BELIEVES that she was doing everything for Natsuki's benefit. Especially after she thinks Natsuki was lost to her. She killed the 1st District not so she could win Natsuki, because she had gave up by that point.

Had she? Yet she uttered "You belong to me" to Natsuki AFTER destroying First District headquarters.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

My point remains.

Shizuru's actions were from a mind no longer functional, while Tomoe's actions were planned out and with careful acts of concealment. Tomoe may or may not become insane later, but for now she knows full well what she is doing.

And you are saying a person intentionally performing crimes is better than someone who performs crimes in a legally mentally insane state?

At least Tomoe for now doesn't seem to pretend she is doing her evil deeds for someone else which helps me like her more than Shizuru.

Shizuru wasn't pretending anything; she was raving mad. There is a difference.

[Matrim]

And you are saying a person intentionally performing crimes is better than someone who performs crimes in a legally mentally insane state?

Of course not, I just happen to prefer fictional villains who are not totally mad. But judging by the evil smile of Tomoe in episode 14 I think she is very close to madness already anyway.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Matrim

Of course not, I just happen to prefer fictional villains who are not totally mad. But judging by the evil smile of Tomoe in episode 14 I think she is very close to madness already anyway.

Well, in that case isn't Nagi a better candidate?

Tomoe would have been a great villain if she had more actual power than merely the ability to control Miya. (which I suspect/guess/speculate is due to Miya's romantic love for her.)

But Tomoe is doomed to small-time petty crimes, and would eventially fall by the way side when the big girls come out and play. I once hoped that she had capabilities for generating much chaos and destruction in Gardrobe. But ever since Miya was removed from the picture, it has now become apparent Tomoe had no cards left to play.

If Miya was the only minion Tomoe had, Tomoe really should have had taken better care of her. I previously thought Tomoe had an army of backup drones to take Miya's place from the way she treats her, but it appears the assumption was wrong.

A true villian would have backup plans. A true villain would try to expand her influence past a single minion. A true villain would try to keep a loyal minion at all costs if that minion was the only minion she has.

Tomoe has the will, and the desire, to be a villain. But she fails in the execution because she had no talent in the area. It takes skill to be evil effectively, and Tomoe has none of the skill.

[Lost]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

As I said, and I will say it again. If Shizuru simply wants to own Natsuki, as an object and plaything, she has enough power to do so by force. But she wants to love and be loved.

Yes, I agree. But when that "be loved" was denied, She was perfectly happy with just owning Natsuki (Ep 25 again, The "You'll be Mine" routine).

And yes, thats the point of this whole thread isn't it? Shizuru is accepted because her actions stemmed, as Vallen puts it, "from a mind no longer functional", one that had reached breaking point where love turned in obsession--one surely cant blame her entirely for that. While Tomoe's mind is functioning perfectly and deliberately, knowing "full well what she is doing," and the full consequences of her actions on Arika.

I think I understand Matrim when he says that Tomoe is in a sense more honest, (correct me if i'm wrong) in that she accepts and even relishes what she is planning and carrying out, while Shizuru did it blankly, in a flash, "all in the circumstances" kinda thing. This makes some of us dislike Tomoe all the more.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

But ever since Miya was removed from the picture, it has now become apparent Tomoe had no cards left to play.

It is still kinda early to say that for sure...

[Matrim]

Well, in that case isn't Nagi a better candidate?

Sure, I like Nagi a lot more than Tomoe. But you have to feel for her, always trying to create trouble for Arika who is protected by the fact that by virtue of being the main character she just won't die and will always prevail.

t ever since Miya was removed from the picture, it has now become apparent Tomoe had no cards left to play.

I doubt that, too much time has been spent on Tomoe to just eliminate her from the big picture like that. I think she still has a few tricks up her sleeve. If not, her character would be just another thing to complain about in Otome.

[Captain Picard]

Tomoe is different from Shizuru, but I still like Tomoe more than Shizuru. In MH, Shizuru appeared to be a weak person who was driven mad by a person rejecting her. MO Tomoe does, at the very least, know what she wants. She is certain of her course, uninfluenced by the wants and needs of others, and because of that I like her a lot more.

Although to be fair, I've always hated Shizuru from first sight for some reason.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

The reason why I believe Tomoe will soon be out of the picture (and I admit it is a personal belief, rather than anything backed by evidence) is that I believe Miya is destined to do something REALLY major. And now that she is no longer IN Gardrobe, the main target for her "major activity" would likely be Tomoe.

Obviously, this assumes that Miya doesn't vanish and never appear in the story again. And I know the probability is 50/50 that she is gone forever.

I mean... People assumed that Tomoe would go crazy for Shizuru and do something nutty. So what stops Miya go crazy for Tomoe and do something nutty first?

I know this is speculation territory rather than facts, but hey, this is just my views. You don't have to agree with them.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Second, if Shizuru was merely a Psycho, what stops her from simply locking Natsuki up in her basement Steven-King Misery-style and having her way with her?
(On the other hand, I can imagine MO Tomoe doing such a thing.)

I am hoping Miya will pull a misery on Tomoe for a ending. It would be the perfect ending for that couple.

[darkwing]

Originally Posted by Matrim

This part was really open for interpretation. Yukino said : "I've seen it. Just like you kissed her a moment ago while Kuga-san was asleep". Since she said "I" and "just like" I assume she had seen Shizuru doing this not once and maybe doing other things, too.

If I understand that part correctly, Yukino says "Atashi mitan desu. Sakki kisu shita mitai ni nemutte iru Kuga-san wa anata ga.""
The "mitai ni" should refer to "kisu shita", and that sentence would translate to "It seems you just kissed the sleeping Kuga-san."
Could someone who speaks Japanese back me up or prove me wrong?

[ZippyDSM]

!! lets keep the convos civil please! I ahte to see catgirls doing so much work over pll being stupid ><!!( BTW if this needs to be edited out go ahead I dont mind,fix my spelling errors to while your at it :P)

Anyway I think the main diffreance is that altho Shizuru was "evil" she did things respecfuly most of the time...altho near the end she just went suki for natsuki LOL,coem on Shiz likes girls and focused on natsuki she wanted her so bad it broke her mental state well LOVE and haveing to FIGHT broke her 0_o,lest thats my feeling.



Anyway Tomoe is just evil and unable IMO to do her own dirty work,shes going to get the crap beaten out of her soon >> mark my words << *L* if she dosnet shes just going to be a htorn in all the "good" girls sides >>

[Eclipze]

Just to clarify one matter:
The OL told Nagi to tell Shizuru that the First District was the enemy of Natsuki, thats why she went to annilate(sp?) them.

In other words, the OL was using Shizuru to wipe out the First District, his oppositions. It was nothing Shizuru(pre or post rejection) planned on doing. Just that post-rejection, she couldn't tell right from wrong anymore. Perfect for manipulation(which the OL clearly took advantage of).

And yes, I believe the whole point of the topic was to find the reason why Tomoe is hated more than MH Shizuru.

[ZippyDSM]

Eclipze
whats your Sig from and how do I get more pics of them...her.... IT!!!!!!!!! 0-o
*L*
BTW to keep this post from being deleted I must say you are right :P

[ando]

Originally Posted by darkwing

If I understand that part correctly, Yukino says "Atashi mitan desu. Sakki kisu shita mitai ni nemutte iru Kuga-san wa anata ga.""
The "mitai ni" should refer to "kisu shita", and that sentence would translate to "It seems you just kissed the sleeping Kuga-san."
Could someone who speaks Japanese back me up or prove me wrong?

I'm Japanese and though I don't watch the part over again, if your Japanese romaji description is right, your translation looks reasonable.

[guest]

Originally Posted by Lost

Yes, I agree. But when that "be loved" was denied, She was perfectly happy with just owning Natsuki (Ep 25 again, The "You'll be Mine" routine).

"Perfectly happy?" Shizuru was crying at some point, she was looking very sad for the last few ep, even if she keeps saying "you belong to me," she just embrace Natsuki after she finally capture her.
I don't know about you but to me, that is way too far to be called "happy."

[Lost]

Originally Posted by guest

"Perfectly happy?" Shizuru was crying at some point, she was looking very sad for the last few ep, even if she keeps saying "you belong to me," she just embrace Natsuki after she finally capture her.
I don't know about you but to me, that is way too far to be called "happy."

Sorry, you misunderstand me, but I admit "happy" wasnt such an appropriate word to use. I don't mean Shizuru was "Happy" at that point, as you pointed out, that was one of the most heart-wrenching moments in the Series. I think a better word would be "Satisfied". I meant that If Shizuru couldnt get Natsuki's love, She was satisfied just to own Natsuki, (Hence her obsessive fight to capture Natsuki) as if by owning her everything would be better again (How she embraced Natsuki).

Hmmm... anymore reasons why Tomoe is more hated than Shizuru? I like that insightful reason given about Tomoe not doing the dirty work herself, but hiding herself behind her henchwoman. Never thought of that.

[Eclipze]

Originally Posted by ZippyDSM

Eclipze
whats your Sig from and how do I get more pics of them...her.... IT!!!!!!!!! 0-o
*L*
BTW to keep this post from being deleted I must say you are right :P

Its from Fate/stay night. Theres a subforum for that anime, and you can request for a sig there.

And yes, Im a proud member of the riding Rider club.

On topic: Probably because Tomoe pretends to be nice, and backstabs others when they're not looking. Add that with the fact that she manipulates Miya into doing her dirty work which makes her so despicable.

Or in Matrim's case, lovable.