[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Because it's been said that it doesn't. Duct tape doesn't prevent you from leaving. You can break a duct tape seal easily.

Do you honestly think someone went around putting duct tape on doors and windows? I don't think so. The duct tape is a meta concept. This is why Erika doesn't actually have to go around and put duct tape.

Originally Posted by Judoh

No not one bit. First off she can only seal 3 rooms so that doesn't work. Second the reason she uses the seals is the same reason Eva does. It's to prove whether or not anybody left or entered the room. In Erika's case the tape has to be sticky because if it's not it doesn't leave a mark when it's removed. If there is no mark she can't tell if a person removed them and left. It's way of getting rid of alibis.

You're only listing what is said about this meta duct tape. There is nothing so convenient in the real world. Think about what actually happened. It does explain why Battler would hide in the closet. Why on earth, if you were trying to disappear, would you hide in the closet? That is just beyond stupid. Obviously he set up the trap so he could escape within a small window of time.
Erika most likely wouldn't have had time to kill these people when she supposedly went around and confirmed all their deaths. She would have plenty of time to do it after she escaped the guest house. Since the plan was to confine everybody to the guest house, these people would be free to move around. Especially so if the plan was for all of their corpses to vanish.
You don't think it is suspicious that Erika stole a master key and ran around to every room?

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

From the time you entered the room to the time of the logic error, you, Battler, and Kanon were the only ones who went in or out of the guest room.

I'm not about to make a theory based on making this red useless, but I was wondering.
Nontheless of saying the time of the logic error (and I'm not going to doubt if there was a logic error or not, to be fair at least a bit), we were explicitely shown that the game went on while Erika and Battler were having their creepy rapist wedding.

So basically, I'm saying, okay yeah up to that point only these 3 went in or out, but do we have a strict explanation that it isn't time-specific valid only still?

Ah, but the game ended while inside the room... however!
Erika went to check the bathroom, we're told pretty clearly Battler could only have left then, which means that Kanon entered the room after the game ended. As thus at a point after the game ended, he existed within the room, and then later on stopped existing within the room. Isn't that proof that even the reds said about the endgame were time specific?

Again, I don't really want to push that as a theory, but I think it's sorta a game in itself to find ways a red could mean nothing at all.

The game ended just after Erika finished in the bathroom and was about to open the closet door. At this point, Battler would have already escaped and Kanon would have entered, and he probably also stopped existing as Kanon.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

Do you honestly think someone went around putting duct tape on doors and windows? I don't think so. The duct tape is a meta concept. This is why Erika doesn't actually have to go around and put duct tape.

Except she did, she said herself she put on her swimsuit just like last time for the windows. Also, how do you suggest she borrowed bad meta-tape from Kumasawa?

If we have meta-tape... it leads the door to a lot of possibilities...
Did Erika put on her meta-swimsuit?
Did she ask the meta-tape to meta-Kumasawa?
Was the guestroom a meta-guestroom?
Were the crimes meta-crimes?
Was the chain a meta-chain?
Or a meta-door?
Was it meta-Erika who did the murders?
Was it the meta-victims who died?
Is it set on meta-rokkenjima?
Does Kanon doesn't meta-exist in the (meta)room anymore?
Same for Battler.

Originally Posted by Moogleking

The game ended just after Erika finished in the bathroom and was about to open the closet door. At this point, Battler would have already escaped and Kanon would have entered, and he probably also stopped existing as Kanon.

I thought it ended the moment she entered the room, but I'll trust your memory.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

Do you honestly think someone went around putting duct tape on doors and windows? I don't think so. The duct tape is a meta concept. This is why Erika doesn't actually have to go around and put duct tape.

I honestly have no opinion on it. As you said I'm just repeating what's been said. I don't care if it's Duct tape or not.

Think about what actually happened. It does explain why Battler would hide in the closet. Why on earth, if you were trying to disappear, would you hide in the closet? That is just beyond stupid. Obviously he set up the trap so he could escape within a small window of time.

OK...So... Hiding from a murderer is stupid now?

You don't need to explain the fakers with seals. I think that is pretty stupid and unnecessary in and of itself. When you're faking your death you're not really supposed to leave the spot your dead at are you? It kind of ruins the premise of making people think that you're dead. Simply having the intention for committing pseudocide explains why they don't leave their respective rooms.

[Moogleking]

I have little reason to take Erika's word that she went around and did stuff when it is questionable that she actually even exists.

Originally Posted by Judoh

I honestly have no opinion on it. As you said I'm just repeating what's been said. I don't care if it's Duct tape or not.

OK...So... Hiding from a murderer is stupid now?

You don't need to explain the fakers with seals. I think that is pretty stupid and unnecessary in and of itself. When you're faking your death you're not really supposed to leave the spot your dead at are you? It kind of ruins the premise of making people think that you're dead. Simply having the intention for committing pseudocide explains why they don't leave their respective rooms.

What do you mean hiding from a murderer? Nobody was supposed to be dead, right? Why was he in the closet?

There are only a few reasons Battler would hide in the closet:
A) Pretend his corpse disappeared.
B) He learns of the murderer and hides.
C) He is trapped in the room and knows someone is coming for him.

In case A, he would be a retard, because he is hiding in the same room.
In case B, he would also be a retard for hiding in the same room. Unless he just learned about the murderer and didn't have time to leave the room. In which case, he could not have set up the bathroom trap.
This leaves us with C, he knew enough ahead of time that someone was coming for him, but could not escape the room.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

I have little reason to take Erika's word that she went around and did stuff when it is questionable that she actually even exists.

This leaves us with C, he knew enough ahead of time that someone was coming for him, but could not escape the room.

Escape from a murderer that you suggest does not exist.

Edit: Sorry, someone you suggest does not exist.

[Judoh]

I think it's because you think his intention is to disappear at that exact moment that that seems stupid to you, but it makes more sense if his intention is actually to leave the room without being seen by the detective (whom piece Battler thinks is Erika).

Kanon doesn't have to intentionally rescue him remember?

Also maybe it's just me, but is there anyone else that thinks that letter Erika got doesn't exist? I mean what sense does it make to place the letter at the front door unless you only want Erika to read it?

Originally Posted by Moogleking

I have little reason to take Erika's word that she went around and did stuff when it is questionable that she actually even exists.

She at least has to have a body or a person to be masked over do a lot of the things she does. So she exists in some sense. But in a fictional one in this case.

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Escape from a murderer that you suggest does not exist.

Obviously there is still a murderer. Erika just represents other people.

Originally Posted by Judoh

I think it's because you think his intention is to disappear at that exact moment that that seems stupid to you, but it makes more sense if his intention is actually to leave the room without being seen by the detective (whom piece Battler thinks is Erika).

Kanon doesn't have to intentionally rescue him remember?

Also maybe it's just me, but is there anyone else that thinks that letter Erika got doesn't exist? I mean what sense does it make to place the letter at the front door unless you only want Erika to read it?

She at least has to have a body to do a lot of the things she does so she exists in some sense. But in a fictional one in this case.

The best opportunity for him to disappear is right after everyone goes to the guesthouse. You really think he has to hide in the closet to accomplish this? That puts him at way too much risk.

I agree, Kanon doesn't intentionally have to rescue him. I think he is going there to confront "Erika". In fact, I think this matches perfectly with the duel at the end of the love-game.

I also agree that Erika's letter probably doesn't exist. Let's assume it did exist for a moment. Who would place it there? The people who die? The people locked in the rooms? If there was a plan to specifically point out Battler's corpse as having disappeared, why would he still be in the freakin' room!?

None of it makes any sense.

Here's another thing that I don't think anyone addresses. A lot of people say Shannon jumped out of the window. Let's think about this in reality for a moment. She left from where again!? The other people in the room don't think this is strange? Why wouldn't she use the door? Keep in mind Hideyoshi has a gun.
I could understand if the door was literally sealed, but if it isn't, it just makes zero sense.

[Disz]

She slipped out with magic.

[UsagiTenpura]

The thing is there's plenty of things that makes a lot less sense in arc 5.
If you can explain that everyone, including Battler, Erika, and Natsuhi, aren't able to see that Kinzo's corpse isn't on Natsuhi's bed while being in the same room, I will believe your arguments about arc 6 people's not making sense to be good points.

Actually, I do think they are good points, but I don't think after arc 5 there's really much point in trying to make sense out of the character's actions. I am not suggesting this is the case for arc 1-2-3-4, and I believe Battler probably intended to make a "good story" like in arc 1-2-3-4, but Erika screwed that up so it lead to a nonsensical arc 5-like scenario.

No matter what you say about it not making any sense it doesn't change that 'The rescuer' means someone who reset the chain lock after Battler undid it. It does not matter whether they intended to save Battler or not. which clearly tells us that to leave the room all Battler had to do to was undo the chain lock, which he did, and thus could do. The only thing he couldn't do was reset it, and this is all rescuing means (and not rescuing from someone or something). This red doesn't leave any places to struggle about that.

Edit: I'm going to try to make some sense out of this tho. Suppose Battler doesn't know "Erika" killed anyone, he was still into the prank. There isn't much sense in why he remained in the room, but I assume his bathroom setup must've taken him some time. He probably did it cause it would be a bigger prank to Erika, especially since he could then escape right under her nose. Also if he leaves beforehand there's the chance he bumps into "Erika" as she is coming. It's safer that way and he has the prank set up at that point so he hides in the closet. She falls for the bathroom trick, and he escapes. He's not even aware Kanon would come and reset the chainlock. Now then I'd have to make sense out of what comes after as well I guess but so far that's how far I can think. I guess something like he closed the door and reset the chain because he wanted to talk to her (suppose "Erika" is Jessica for instance I guess) in private but she still went on in her killing spree and killed him.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

The thing is there's plenty of things that makes a lot less sense in arc 5.
If you can explain that everyone, including Battler, Erika, and Natsuhi, aren't able to see that Kinzo's corpse isn't on Natsuhi's bed while being in the same room, I will believe your arguments about arc 6 people's not making sense to be good points.

Huh? When were Battler, Erika, and Natsuhi all in Natsuhi's room?

If you're talking about when they accused her of murder they were in the parlor when that happened.

If you're talking about when she was in the closet IIRC that was in one of the guestrooms.

That and the red about Kinzo being in Natsuhi's room refers to a 'living Kinzo'. So they're just using the red to trap her by only allowing a living Kinzo to be in that room.

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

The thing is there's plenty of things that makes a lot less sense in arc 5.
If you can explain that everyone, including Battler, Erika, and Natsuhi, aren't able to see that Kinzo's corpse isn't on Natsuhi's bed while being in the same room, I will believe your arguments about arc 6 people's not making sense to be good points.

Actually, I do think they are good points, but I don't think after arc 5 there's really much point in trying to make sense out of the character's actions. I am not suggesting this is the case for arc 1-2-3-4, and I believe Battler probably intended to make a "good story" like in arc 1-2-3-4, but Erika screwed that up so it lead to a nonsensical arc 5-like scenario.

No matter what you say about it not making any sense it doesn't change that 'The rescuer' means someone who reset the chain lock after Battler undid it. It does not matter whether they intended to save Battler or not. which clearly tells us that to leave the room all Battler had to do to was undo the chain lock, which he did, and thus could do. The only thing he couldn't do was reset it, and this is all rescuing means (and not rescuing from someone or something). This red doesn't leave any places to struggle about that.

Unfortunately, game 5 is the one I least remember. I've been replaying the games, and I've done 1, 2, and halfway through 3 taking very detailed notes. Doesn't most of the arguing about Kinzo being in weird places take place in the meta anyways?

The goal of game 5 appears to be to get Natsuhi to confess about Kinzo. This actually does make sense as to why the adults go searching the mansion and eventually end up in Natsuhi's room, looking for some evidence of Kinzo. It is certainly more believable than someone trying to fake the disappearance of his corpse by hiding in a closet in the same room, or someone randomly leaving from the window and people not thinking it suspicious.

I don't understand what you're arguing about with rescuing. Why would Battler have to reset the chain lock to leave the room? That's the real question. The chain lock was broken until Erika entered the room. If he really wanted to disappear, he just had to walk outside and hide in another room.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Huh? When were Battler, Erika, and Natsuhi all in Natsuhi's room?

If you're talking about when they accused her of murder they were in the parlor when that happened.

If you're talking about when she was in the closet IIRC that was in one of the guestrooms.

That and the red about Kinzo being in Natsuhi's room refers to a 'living Kinzo'. So they're just using the red to trap her by only allowing a living Kinzo to be in that room.

I don't really see how they could rule out that Kinzo doesn't exist anywhere in the mansion exept her room, then anywhere in the room except her bed, without searching it. However now that you mention it that way I'm willing to believe they could've simply "trusted" Erika's search that she could've done on her own. However it doesn't explain why she herself didn't even propose to check her bed and see that Kinzo isn't there. It also doesn't explain Erika's detective authority making any sense on the gameboard, so doesn't explain why anyone would even trust her search. Even if we talk about a conspiracy to make Natsuhi/Krauss fall or something, it doesn't explain that they would trust a complete stranger into it. It's really hard to make any sense out of that scene.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

I don't understand what you're arguing about with rescuing. Why would Battler have to reset the chain lock to leave the room? That's the real question.

What? He said Battler has to unset it to leave.

The chain lock was broken until Erika entered the room. If he really wanted to disappear, he just had to walk outside and hide in another room.

You're not understanding something. The reason Battler can't leave before Erika entered is because she sealed the room. The seal wasn't broken until Erika entered and she said in red that she resealed it after resetting the chain lock when she did. That's why he has to be hiding in the closet in first place because the seal being intact proves he didn't leave until she broke the seal.

@UsagiTenpura: It was Bernkastel that said those reds so a search for Kinzo's corpse isn't necessary to proclaim them. Evidence like that is only necessary for Humans that are participating in the trial.

[UsagiTenpura]

@ Moogleking
I did an edit on my earlier post (2 posts ago) to give a possible explanation I guess.

[LaplaceNoMa]

All this discussion about a 'lie which is accepted be everyone becoming truth' reminded me of a certain episode of Akagi. Remember when he was playing dice game at some gambling house? 'All people besides you acknowledge that the outcome is even'. I wonder if this line of thought is really the best explaination of the red words in ep4 about 'acknowledging of Kinzo's existance'.

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

I don't really see how they could rule out that Kinzo doesn't exist anywhere in the mansion exept her room, then anywhere in the room except her bed, without searching it. However now that you mention it that way I'm willing to believe they could've simply "trusted" Erika's search that she could've done on her own. However it doesn't explain why she herself didn't even propose to check her bed and see that Kinzo isn't there. It also doesn't explain Erika's detective authority making any sense on the gameboard, so doesn't explain why anyone would even trust her search. Even if we talk about a conspiracy to make Natsuhi/Krauss fall or something, it doesn't explain that they would trust a complete stranger into it. It's really hard to make any sense out of that scene.

Erika doesn't exist. She is just the amalgamation of everyone else's feelings. You'll notice she never tells people to do anything they don't already want to do. The detective is just a meta thing. In fact, the detective might be the meta-player who is playing the game. This matches with Battler being detective in 1-4 and Erika being it in 5-6. This explains the detective's authority very easily. It wouldn't make for much of a game if they couldn't inspect the crime scenes. That's the only part of detective's authority mentioned in red. The detective's authority about being allowed to question Natsuhi? They all WANTED to question Natsuhi.

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Edit: I'm going to try to make some sense out of this tho. Suppose Battler doesn't know "Erika" killed anyone, he was still into the prank. There isn't much sense in why he remained in the room, but I assume his bathroom setup must've taken him some time. He probably did it cause it would be a bigger prank to Erika, especially since he could then escape right under her nose. Also if he leaves beforehand there's the chance he bumps into "Erika" as she is coming. It's safer that way and he has the prank set up at that point so he hides in the closet. She falls for the bathroom trick, and he escapes. He's not even aware Kanon would come and reset the chainlock. Now then I'd have to make sense out of what comes after as well I guess but so far that's how far I can think. I guess something like he closed the door and reset the chain because he wanted to talk to her (suppose "Erika" is Jessica for instance I guess) in private but she still went on in her killing spree and killed him.

Much closer to something reasonable. However, I still don't buy he set up the bathroom thing if he could just leave. There is no benefit to "escaping from under her nose." There's no way he knew she would fix the lock on the door. And if he has time to set up the bathroom thing without worrying about Erika finding him, then he definitely has PLENTY of time to just leave the room.

Originally Posted by Judoh

What? He said Battler has to unset it to leave.

Your not understanding something. The reason Battler can't leave before Erika entered is because she sealed the room. The seal wasn't broken until Erika entered and she said in red that she resealed it after resetting the chain lock when she did. That's why he has to be hiding in the closet in first place because he can't leave until she breaks the seal.

Battler shouldn't have to unset any lock to leave, because the lock is broken. Remember, we're thinking about this in the real world. There is no reason for him to stay in the room until Erika comes.

So, you agree with me then that Erika literally sealed the room? If you think she just put duct tape on it, there's no way he would know about it. He would just open the door and go hide somewhere else to pretend his body was missing.

Red doesn't actually exist in the real world, so the red alone cannot keep him inside the room.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

Battler shouldn't have to unset any lock to leave, because the lock is broken. Remember, we're thinking about this in the real world. There is no reason for him to stay in the room until Erika comes.

Erika repaired the chain lock.

So, you agree with me then that Erika literally sealed the room? If you think she just put duct tape on it, there's no way he would know about it. He would just open the door and go hide somewhere else to pretend his body was missing.

I edited my post for that.

That's why he has to be hiding in the closet in first place because the seal being intact proves he didn't leave until she broke the seal.

Red doesn't actually exist, so the red itself cannot alone keep him inside the room.

Battler never broke the seal Erika did. That proves he was in the guestroom until she entered. Her sealing that room was a retroactive move remember? That's the whole point of the logic error. The seal being intact is proof Battler didn't leave and yet the GM claims he's not in the room.

[Moogleking]

Originally Posted by Judoh

[COLOR="Red"]
Battler never broke the seal Erika did. That proves he was in the guestroom until she entered. Her sealing that room was a retroactive move remember? That's the whole point of the logic error. There is proof Battler didn't leave and yet the GM claims he's not in the room.

You're missing my point. There is proof Battler didn't leave the room, I'm not denying that. I am asking WHY he did not leave the room. Why did he not break the seal? He couldn't have known about it.

All signs point to him leaving the room being the best option. Leaving the room makes the most sense, yet he didn't.

"Because Erika sealed the door with red" is NOT a valid reason for not leaving the room, because that doesn't exist in the real world (unless she actually literally sealed it). There must be a reason for him not to leave the room, and the only thing that seems to make sense is that he was stuck there.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

You're missing my point. There is proof Battler didn't leave the room, I'm not denying that. I am asking WHY he did not leave the room.

The question you should be asking then is why Battler didn't break the seal not why he didn't leave the room. I really don't have an answer. For whatever reason he just didn't.

Originally Posted by Moogleking

All signs point to him leaving the room being the best option. Leaving the room makes the most sense, yet he didn't.

For meta Battler because he's making a move for his disappearance. What reason DOES piece Battler have to leave the room?

"Because Erika sealed the door with red" is NOT a valid reason for not leaving the room, because that doesn't exist in the real world (unless she actually literally sealed it). There must be a reason for him not to leave the room, and the only thing that seems to make sense is that he was stuck there.

It's not a reason why he didn't it's just the method that proves he didn't. Maybe he didn't think he had to? BATTLER and Battler don't really have to be on the same page about this.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

Much closer to something reasonable. However, I still don't buy he set up the bathroom thing if he could just leave. There is no benefit to "escaping from under her nose." There's no way he knew she would fix the lock on the door. And if he has time to set up the bathroom thing without worrying about Erika finding him, then he definitely has PLENTY of time to just leave the room.

Ah, I think this is the core of our misunderstanding. You propose that Battler couldn't leave the room, possibly because Erika said sorta so. However she was talking about the past in the context that "He couldn't have left the room because I have a proof he didn't" and not that he literally couldn't. In other words, he simply didn't leave the room, it's not that he couldn't.

Doing the bathroom setup must've taken quite some time, and that bathroom setup is real, and wasn't there when Erika searched the room. It's likely it took most of Battler's time. As for a benefit, I mentioned that's the only sure way he could've left and be certain he wouldn't bump into her.

Edit : Judoh was faster...