StarCraft 2

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Sooo...I guess I'm the only supporter of science vessels. Poor irradiate only costs some 25 energy to cast and is highly contageous, effectively taking out any biomass, be it marines, mutas,l ings or zealots. Plus they repair mechs, and while it is inferior to PDD, it's still something.

Oh, sc1 vessels were much different. Irradiate takes 75 energy and they did not heal mech. The campaign vessel is way overpowered.

But then I guess sc1 vessels had emp, raven is still better though. EMP has nothing on the missile.

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Combine tunneling claws + infested marines + fungal growth, and you got a perfect ambush; even if the marines are slow as fuck, the enemy will be in a worse state after taking the FG, and since you can pop out marines pretty much anywhere, their attack can be as wide as an entire base. Of course, you'll need some support till the marines pop, but still! Compared to the SC1 queen, they're definitely better.

Yea, so it becomes readily apparent that the infestor is a strong addition to the zerg army. Too many people will compare things directly without considering time, tech tree, or cost. Having defiler tech at lair would be massively overpowered; the reason why ghosts are so good in sc2 is because of their accessibility.

But when you realize what the infestor was meant to do, and it becomes a very good unit. And indeed, it is very heavily used by the Zerg. It'd be intresting to see a t3 upgrade for the infestor, maybe it can morph into something else...

That being said, I wouldn't mind if they made zerg research cheaper. There's so much crap for zerg to research and lair tech (I strongly objected to the ol speed cost increase, wtf)

[Hooves]

Doesn't Zeratul have an ability that cancels out Stealth Detection, and paralizes the unit for a certain amount of time? Giving your Phoenixs enough time to move in for the kill when the Overseers move in?

[Kafriel]

@^: yea he does, void prison can make short work of the overseers.

EMP has nothing on the missile.

A quick note on missile, although it is pretty devastating, it's very energy consuming, has a relatively short cast range and has timed life (i.e. if you got speedlings you can easily outlast it). It's still a powerful skill though, I'd say it's in the same league as EMP, but the latter can just do impossible amounts of potential damage over a satisfactory area of shields.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

@^: yea he does, void prison can make short work of the overseers.
A quick note on missile, although it is pretty devastating, it's very energy consuming, has a relatively short cast range and has timed life (i.e. if you got speedlings you can easily outlast it). It's still a powerful skill though, I'd say it's in the same league as EMP, but the latter can just do impossible amounts of potential damage over a satisfactory area of shields.

Ah, well I forgot to say that sc1's version of EMP was very crappy. It doesn't have a large area (much smaller than it looks), has short range (you stand a good chance of losing the vessel), and is a slow moving projectile. Plus it required research.

Now if it had the sc2 emp, that'd be very powerful, but heat seeker missile still has the advantage of working against everything, not just shields.

[Kafriel]

Situational is what makes SC fun

[Archon_Wing]

Wtf...

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=151132

Someone played a ridiclous hacker... he was warping in immortals and auto casting force field. Yea... and the hacker still lost.

Blizz plz fix. -_-;

[Eisdrache]

Originally Posted by -Sho-

And Lurker , Air Queen ,Defiler , Valkyrie , Corsair T_T

Let's compare - Terran :

Ghost SC2 vs Ghost SC1 = EMP/Sniper or Lockdown (usefull to lock all Mecha ) ? Also Ghost SC1 cost less (50M 75G) so this is 1 Ghost SC2 vs 2 Ghost SC1 .

Banshee vs Wraith = Wraith win , can attack air / move faster .

Raven vs Science Vessel = Science Vessel win , Shield/EMP/irradiate nuff's said ..

Let's compare - Protoss :

Colossus vs Reaver = I remember how Reaver pawn mass units ! And very good cheese ! Colossus is faster and climb but got owned by air + if he fight against Reaver , Reaver will pawn him 3 shots .

Phoenix vs Corsair = Corsair FTW ! Imba Anti-air + Disruption . Phoenix is shit anti-air with Graviton .

Guess you mean anti-ground with Phoenix.

I more or less agree or accept what you said about Zerg, but for the love of god don't try to analyze terran/protoss units with your bias.

Ghost: SC2 Ghost is lower tier than in SC1 so the cost argument isn't valid.
Banshee vs Wraith are different units. The Wraith doesn't "win" just because it can attack air. It does move faster but it also deals minimal dmg against ground while Banshee has really high dps.
While I think that Science Vessel is more versatile than the Raven, you completely forgot to mention PDD and turrets which make the Raven an useful unit as well.

Collossus fires and moves faster, has more range (upgraded) than the Reaver and attacks several units without reloading as well while being able to abuse cliffs. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.
Phoenix can shoot while moving while Corsair has AoE. And uh it is true that Phoenix is pretty bad against ground but then the Corsair is too so that argument is negligible.

[-Sho-]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Their splash damage was wrecked in sc2; now it's much smaller. 2 archons could destroy mutas pretty bad. In sc1, mass archons (/w reaver) were insanely deadly vs zerg.

In sc2, they even said it was intentional that archons were supposed to be just leftovers when your templars had run out of energy, but I'm just lilke The sc1 dynamic had you deciding whether to have a powerful warrrior or spellcaster. In sc2 the choice becomes more obvious.

Ow yes indeed , i remember ... when i played Battlecraft (custom map) and make Archon something always disrupted me and that was the splash size . I always used ALT to see the life bar and damn Archon does shit now .

[-Sho-]

Ok Burning Tides is available but problem .... Unbalanced Team -.- 4 v 2 . B.net Team system really suxx , need to be fixed cuz it can't go on any longer ..

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by -Sho-

Ow yes indeed , i remember ... when i played Battlecraft (custom map) and make Archon something always disrupted me and that was the splash size . I always used ALT to see the life bar and damn Archon does shit now .

Why must Archons be portrayed by Raynor as "Super Deadly" during the Artifact mission.. But in truth... They are completely bad

Ahh!! Utter Darkness is evil... 2410 kills on Hard... Must try again.

[gummybear]

SC1 Archon can DPS and tank at the same time, SC2 Archon are as useful as a zealot

also, you know what grinds my gear? colossus. In the offical light noval, they showed that they were cutting zerg air swarms into pieces, yet they can't even defend themselves from air in game. <.<

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by gummybear

SC1 Archon can DPS and tank at the same time, SC2 Archon are as useful as a zealot

We now have a tough choice

Zealot - 100 minerals - Charge = Super Speed - Melee
or
Archon - 300 minerals/gas (depending which 2 templars you sacrifice) - Massive Shield - Range

[Xacual]

So my Brutal Playthrough started ok just to grind me to dust on the 4th level which I chose Smash & Grab. I can't keep a strong enough force to defend my base and also push the protoss base. Also I lose about 5-8 units just getting to the artifact thats to the left of my base. Would starting with Evacuation missions be a better choice for the extra credits for upgrades and stuff?

Just a quick Edit: I used my first 100k credits to upgrade Stim Pack and Bunker +2 slots.

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by Xacual

So my Brutal Playthrough started ok just to grind me to dust on the 4th level which I chose Smash & Grab. I can't keep a strong enough force to defend my base and also push the protoss base. Also I lose about 5-8 units just getting to the artifact thats to the left of my base. Would starting with Evacuation missions be a better choice for the extra credits for upgrades and stuff?

Just a quick Edit: I used my first 100k credits to upgrade Stim Pack and Bunker +2 slots.

I thought about doing the first "Colonist" mission where you get the Fire Bats, then hire the mercenaries, then get the Marines + Fire bat mercenaries to guard your base, while you go Marauder + Marine on the Protoss Lines. Of course there is always the Medic to add in that mix (You should also get the Perdition Turrets) (They are extremely deadly against the Zerg) So doing a couple of other missions to get the research is also helpful.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Xacual

So my Brutal Playthrough started ok just to grind me to dust on the 4th level which I chose Smash & Grab. I can't keep a strong enough force to defend my base and also push the protoss base. Also I lose about 5-8 units just getting to the artifact thats to the left of my base. Would starting with Evacuation missions be a better choice for the extra credits for upgrades and stuff?

Just a quick Edit: I used my first 100k credits to upgrade Stim Pack and Bunker +2 slots.

It is hard to defend your base while attacking. So you should spend some time building a large force first, and take those relics with a decent force. If they attack, just pull back. You may want like a dozen marines and war pigs, rest should be marauders. Once you've nearly mined out your main, go towards the artifact.

As for the main attack and defending your base? My solution is don't bother defending. Just take all your forces and attack. Lift your buildings and have them follow the army. Then you can end up breaking into the toss base and landing your buildings there. On brutal, the zerg will come soon, so set up a bunch of bunkers near the artifact to keep them away while you defeat the guardians.

I usually do this mission first, it's not too bad if you pace yourself properly. If you're really desperate you can do the Devil's playground mission as that doesn't require much in the way of upgrades/credits/units.

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

It is hard to defend your base while attacking. So you should spend some time building a large force first, and take those relics with a decent force. If they attack, just pull back. You may want like a dozen marines and war pigs, rest should be marauders. Once you've nearly mined out your main, go towards the artifact.

As for the main attack and defending your base? My solution is don't bother defending. Just take all your forces and attack. Lift your buildings and have them follow the army. Then you can end up breaking into the toss base and landing your buildings there. On brutal, the zerg will come soon, so set up a bunch of bunkers near the artifact to keep them away while you defeat the guardians.

I usually do this mission first, it's not too bad if you pace yourself properly. If you're really desperate you can do the Devil's playground mission as that doesn't require much in the way of upgrades/credits/units.

Yeah, just beated Devil's Playground on Hard, all I did was get Reapers and got the achievement for looking for Tosh's Reapers. So your plan for "Smash and Grab" on Brutal Difficulty is to Kamikaze run at the last moment?

[Archon_Wing]

That's generally the typical option for any mission that involves destroying a single target.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Ah, well I forgot to say that sc1's version of EMP was very crappy. It doesn't have a large area (much smaller than it looks), has short range (you stand a good chance of losing the vessel), and is a slow moving projectile. Plus it required research.

Now if it had the sc2 emp, that'd be very powerful, but heat seeker missile still has the advantage of working against everything, not just shields.

The SC1's Lockdown disables enemy units for a cost - great for ambushing carriers and battlecruisers while you chip into them with AA weapons.

The SC2 Ghost's EMP is more like the Science Vessel's EMP Shockwave that smashes enemy shields.

[Kafriel]

About the banshees VS wraith: I'd say that banshees win overall, because their attack is far higher than a wraith's, and has a lower cost as well. The only times I seriously used wraiths was in safe haven, where I used 6 of them to snipe the nexi and kill the mothership and in "welcome to the jungle", in order to defend the terrazine spots. So the advantage they got is speed, AA and a built-in cloak...

[Archon_Wing]

Yea, like I said, I don't really miss the wraith at all. (Though it should be noted the sc2 campaign wraith is worse; it requires an addon for some reason)

This is coming from someone that frequently tried to open wraiths a lot in sc1. Banshees are just so much better of an opening.