Dragon Ball Super (Manga)

[DragonOsman]

^Yeah, I agree there. Though Caulifla and Cabba only ever managed to go up to Super Saiyan 2 in the anime as well. Goku felt that Caulifla had the potential to go Super Saiyan 3.

Frieza shouldn't be saying anything about the Saiyans having too many forms to keep track of, since his own race also has too many. Although aside from his Golden form, he just has "suppressed" forms and a true form. The form he uses as his base form now, the smaller form, is his true form where his full power is released.

[Alhazad2003]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

^Yeah, I agree there. Though Caulifla and Cabba only ever managed to go up to Super Saiyan 2 in the anime as well. Goku felt that Caulifla had the potential to go Super Saiyan 3.

Frieza shouldn't be saying anything about the Saiyans having too many forms to keep track of, since his own race also has too many. Although aside from his Golden form, he just has "suppressed" forms and a true form. The form he uses as his base form now, the smaller form, is his true form where his full power is released.

Perhaps, though I'd say that's Frieza trying to hide his self-loathing over how badly he underestimated the Saiyan race. He thought the original Super Saiyan was a nightmare, now he's seen Super Saiyan 2, 3, God, Blue, and now Kale has shown him her Legendary Super Saiyan form. It's enough to make his bald head spin, not bad for a group of monkeys, eh?

[DragonOsman]

Yeah, you're right about that. Really is not bad for a group of monkeys. Too bad for Frieza for underestimating them.

I wonder if Vegeta will also say in the manga, like he did in the anime when he noticed Kale's transformation, that that form is the true form of a Saiyan.

According to what we've heard regarding the origins of the Saiyans, the Saiyan that's spoken about the legend of the Super Saiyan, that Frieza knew about, was also the first Super Saiyan God although that part of the legend is known more by the Namekians since Yamoshi's spirit contacted the Namekian Guru of that time.

[Kanon]

I don't think the manga will say much about Kale's transformation. We'll probably have to wait for the movie where it looks like the antagonist has the same transformation has her based on the teaser.

[Tong]

Oh my, so they really are attempting to make Legendary SSJ canon somehow.

[DragonOsman]

@Kanon: Yamoshi was the first regular Super Saiyan but not an LSSJ, right? Or did he turn into both forms and also Super Saiyan God? We know he was the first Super Saiyan and also the first Super Saiyan God, but since Vegeta referred to LSSJ as the true form a Saiyan, it needs to have started somewhere. But the thing is that Vegeta didn't know about the Super Saiyan God until Super. It was a Namekian legend because the Namekian Guru at that time noticed Yamoshi's spirit as it passed on after his death.

Though I wonder if the Saiyan in the new movie is really Yamoshi or someone else. If it's Yamoshi, how did he come to the present and why is Goku fighting him? If Goku is fighting only for fun or to spar against him, that's that, but he could also be an enemy. But Yamoshi being an enemy wouldn't make sense given what we know about him from the past.

[Kanon]

All we know for sure about Yamoshi is that he was the first SSJ. The way Toriyama worded it, he's the first SSJ who died after wearing himself out and being overwhelmed by numbers and started searching for the SSG after he became a spirit. Unless his spirit possessed another saiyan, then he can't have been the SSG too.

[DragonOsman]

Either way, it does sound like he didn't turn into that SSJ form called the "true form a Saiyan" (The LSSJ name doesn't seem to be canon, so I won't use it unless I have to).

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Kanon

All we know for sure about Yamoshi is that he was the first SSJ. The way Toriyama worded it, he's the first SSJ who died after wearing himself out and being overwhelmed by numbers and started searching for the SSG after he became a spirit. Unless his spirit possessed another saiyan, then he can't have been the SSG too.

hmm you could link again that material cuz i'm not sure if it was what really talk i remember hearing about yamoshi himself becoming the first SSG but i can be wrong, could be good someone linking back what he had told to make things clear.

About being overpowered, honestly i can't buy it, because if frieza in his "weakest form" could obliterate the planet and almost all the sayans why yamoshi could loose??? if vegita at that time was the strongest sayan after yamoshi and still a weakling how exactly yamoshi in SS could loose to a army?? SS have enough power to throw a ki blast strong enough to beat all the evil sayan or beat them to a point of the remains just run in fear.

it's hard to believe which small fries could beat a SS whcih was supposed to be at last on frieza 100% form level, unless his SS was really that weak compared with goku first SS.

[Kanon]

You can read about it here.

[DragonOsman]

Thanks.

Yeah, Yamoshi wasn't the Super Saiyan God as it was only that his spirit searched for the Super Saiyan God after his bodily death, but then why did Toriyama say that the "legendary Super Saiyan" that Frieza feared and the Super Saiyan God were the same person? Yamoshi was only the "legendary Super Saiyan" that Frieza feared (and of course, this isn't talking about the LSS but the regular Super Saiyan; the reason it's a legend is because no one after Yamoshi was pure-hearted enough or had enough S-Cells to be able to become a Super Saiyan until Goku. Since it seemed impossible, it became the stuff of legends).

Anyway, it'd be good to know if (and if so, why) Yamoshi is an antagonist in the upcoming movie.

A gentle spirit and high-enough battle power makes a Super Saiyan, and a gentle spirit inside a Saiyan raised on a planet that's easy to live on increases the amount of S-Cells in that Saiyan's body. But really, what the heck are S-Cells? Hopefully the movie will go into detail on this. [Note: I'm just putting this info here so that people who are new (if there's anyone like that) to this info can find it here instead of having to search through the thread.] The interview where Toriyama talks about it is here: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translatio...an-special-qa/.

[Kanon]

He said they were the same "in a sense", because Yamoshi's spirit apparently created the SSG legend. I think we'll have to wait for the movie to get some real answers.

[DragonOsman]

If it's like that, then yeah, it makes more sense. The Namekian Guru of that time learned about the legend from Yamoshi's spirit and passed the legend down through the generations. But it's a Saiyan legend. I'm peeved that no Saiyans learned of it until Super.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Kanon

You can read about it here.

thanks for the link, but i can't still buy that thing about a SS losing to a "army of weaklings when peoples like frieza could blow up the whole planet and countless sayans which where in the space in his "most weak" form with just a finger beam.

how much weak was yamoshi SS form to have lost for a even most weak version of that army.

[Alhazad2003]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

thanks for the link, but i can't still buy that thing about a SS losing to a "army of weaklings when peoples like frieza could blow up the whole planet and countless sayans which where in the space in his "most weak" form with just a finger beam.

how much weak was yamoshi SS form to have lost for a even most weak version of that army.

Depends on how the army did it. If they engaged in melee combat, then no, it wouldn't really make any sense. But if they used their battleships and fired on him, or used something like particle beams, then that would be more feasible. Sort of like what Kylo Ren tried doing to Obiwan in "The Last Jedi". Though Yamoshi would have to be completely exhausted for such a tactic to work, unless he did destroy the invading army and died from exhaustion and injuries afterwards. Something along these lines anyway.

[Sixth]

Spoiler for No.17 and his minions:

That was a rather unexpected cameo.

[DragonOsman]

@Alzahad: Yeah, I think he may have defeated the entire army and died later from sustained injuries. Either that or he was already exhausted from something else when he was attacked by the army and died because of that. I hope it's the former.

About the spoiler.....what's with the Cell Juniors? Did 17 bring them out?

[Kanon]

People want Toriyama to bring Cell back, Toyotaro brings back the Cell Juniors. Apparently the explanation is that they regenerated. Pretty Gohan blew the heads of quite a few of them though. Leaving that aside, I hope there's also an explanation regarding why they were left alone, since Gohan and the others should have been able to sense their ki.

[Tong]

Probably because it took them a long time to regenerate and they were the least of their concerns, since Buu saga and all happened.

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by Kanon

People want Toriyama to bring Cell back, Toyotaro brings back the Cell Juniors. Apparently the explanation is that they regenerated. Pretty Gohan blew the heads of quite a few of them though. Leaving that aside, I hope there's also an explanation regarding why they were left alone, since Gohan and the others should have been able to sense their ki.

Well, considering how Cell regen from getting his upper body got blown by IT+Kamehame Combo and then coming back from his own self-destruction technique in the same day, Cell Jr survives and went living with No.17 for many years doesn't bother me at all.

As for Gohan and others for not doing anything, well, don't forget that they were the one who let Frieza's minion use the dragon ball, revive Frieza and then left the Earth despite that they had sensed frieza minions' ki earlier and completely aware of Shenlong been summoned.

The real concern is...when Kid-Buu blew up the Earth, the dragon ball firmly believed that these Cell Jr are not evil and revive them as well.