Madan no Ou to Vanadis [Light Novel]

[Brin A'sair]

I'm not sure if it matters what the other nobles think. If all of the Vanadis (and especially their Viralts) choose Tigre, it will result in either civil war or a severe decrease in military strength if Tigre is not chosen / accepted as the next emperor.


Take an extreme and utterly unlikely example: Suppose that upon the death of the current emperor, rather than guiding the Vanadis to the new emperor to swear loyalty, the Viralts instead guide their Vanadis to Tigre to swear loyalty. Suppose that upon learning this the Vanadis are asked to recant and swear loyalty to the heir of the former emperor or lose their rank and holdings. Suppose they choose not to recant and simply accept their loss of rank / holdings, after which the seven leave Zhcted and move in with Tigre in Alsace.

This would be akin to during the cold war if all of the nukes (with their arming codes) were held in nuclear submarines, and for some reason all of the nuclear subs of a single country (USA or USSR) suddenly defected to, say, Costa Rica. Sure, the country still has all of its troops, tanks, planes, air craft carriers, etc, but if Costa Rica had a thousand ICBMs that could be launched at a moment's notice, do you really think the country that lost those nukes would act with rash swiftness, or that their foe wouldn't consider taking advantage of the situation?


If all or even most of the Vanadis swear loyalty to Tigre rather than the emperor's heir upon the death of the current emperor, and if their Viralts stay with them (showing that they too accept Tigre rather than the new emperor), I would not be surprised if some of the nobles currently serving under those Vanadis might not choose to remain loyal to their local Vanadis. And this is sure to result in civil war - especially as some of the Vanadis would not be willing to abandon those who choose to remain loyal to them.

In any case, as the volumes have currently involved civil wars in Brune and Asvarre, I fully expect a civil war to eventually occur in Zhcted as well, although probably not for the reason given above. Instead, I wonder if the Viralts might not have trouble choosing the target of their loyalty during such a civil war, in which case a situation might arise where the Viralts, not having a clear choice (due to multiple heirs of the emperor fighting among each other for the top spot), instead refuse to choose anyone. Perhaps during such a civil war all clear lines of succession are lost, and Tigre is eventually chosen by the Viralts simply because he is the wielder of the black bow and no one directly from the prior lineage is left.

This would actually be much more believable to me than the next wielder of Bargren showing up to swear loyalty to Tigre, although as I earlier stated it would be an interesting and amusing plot twist if this actually happens, albeit not entirely unpredictable.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by Brin A'sair

I'm not sure if it matters what the other nobles think. If all of the Vanadis (and especially their Viralts) choose Tigre, it will result in either civil war or a severe decrease in military strength if Tigre is not chosen / accepted as the next emperor.


Take an extreme and utterly unlikely example: Suppose that upon the death of the current emperor, rather than guiding the Vanadis to the new emperor to swear loyalty, the Viralts instead guide their Vanadis to Tigre to swear loyalty. Suppose that upon learning this the Vanadis are asked to recant and swear loyalty to the heir of the former emperor or lose their rank and holdings. Suppose they choose not to recant and simply accept their loss of rank / holdings, after which the seven leave Zhcted and move in with Tigre in Alsace.

This would be akin to during the cold war if all of the nukes (with their arming codes) were held in nuclear submarines, and for some reason all of the nuclear subs of a single country (USA or USSR) suddenly defected to, say, Costa Rica. Sure, the country still has all of its troops, tanks, planes, air craft carriers, etc, but if Costa Rica had a thousand ICBMs that could be launched at a moment's notice, do you really think the country that lost those nukes would act with rash swiftness, or that their foe wouldn't consider taking advantage of the situation?


If all or even most of the Vanadis swear loyalty to Tigre rather than the emperor's heir upon the death of the current emperor, and if their Viralts stay with them (showing that they too accept Tigre rather than the new emperor), I would not be surprised if some of the nobles currently serving under those Vanadis might not choose to remain loyal to their local Vanadis. And this is sure to result in civil war - especially as some of the Vanadis would not be willing to abandon those who choose to remain loyal to them.

In any case, as the volumes have currently involved civil wars in Brune and Asvarre, I fully expect a civil war to eventually occur in Zhcted as well, although probably not for the reason given above. Instead, I wonder if the Viralts might not have trouble choosing the target of their loyalty during such a civil war, in which case a situation might arise where the Viralts, not having a clear choice (due to multiple heirs of the emperor fighting among each other for the top spot), instead refuse to choose anyone. Perhaps during such a civil war all clear lines of succession are lost, and Tigre is eventually chosen by the Viralts simply because he is the wielder of the black bow and no one directly from the prior lineage is left.

This would actually be much more believable to me than the next wielder of Bargren showing up to swear loyalty to Tigre, although as I earlier stated it would be an interesting and amusing plot twist if this actually happens, albeit not entirely unpredictable.

^This. Basically something like this would happen,except some nobles are just dumb enough thinking they have a chance against a Vanadis with a Viralt(the King's nephew for example).

[borisdrakoni]

Incidentally, the author has already given a fairly simple method for Tigre to take the throne back in Volume 8.

"The throne of Zchted was not particularly different from that of other countries. It was hereditary and gave priority to the eldest son. In addition, the nomination by the King gave priority to inheritance. Though women were also given the rights to the throne, even thinking about the fact that there was no queen so far, it could be said that the hope was very small........The third in line of succession to the throne was the husband of King Victor’s eldest daughter. The eldest daughter’s rights to the throne were given to her husband by marriage."

It's essentially the exact same method King Faron wanted to use for Brune. Assuming Valentina somehow or other eventually ends up hopping on the Vanadis harem train, all Tigre would need at that point would be the King's endorsement, and then the throne is all his.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by borisdrakoni

Incidentally, the author has already given a fairly simple method for Tigre to take the throne back in Volume 8.

"The throne of Zchted was not particularly different from that of other countries. It was hereditary and gave priority to the eldest son. In addition, the nomination by the King gave priority to inheritance. Though women were also given the rights to the throne, even thinking about the fact that there was no queen so far, it could be said that the hope was very small........The third in line of succession to the throne was the husband of King Victor’s eldest daughter. The eldest daughter’s rights to the throne were given to her husband by marriage."

It's essentially the exact same method King Faron wanted to use for Brune. Assuming Valentina somehow or other eventually ends up hopping on the Vanadis harem train, all Tigre would need at that point would be the King's endorsement, and then the throne is all his.

Meaning Tigre would most likely have to marry a member of the existing royal family as I've suggested(either his granddaughter,Eugene's daughter or even his semi-widowed daughter if she's still young enough). The King ain't gonna give the throne to someone who isn't part of the family. Even Eugene is his nephew by marriage, and future kings would have been related to Victor. It's been implied that the King would rather watch the realm burn than to let the throne pass out of his family, seeing how he tries to weaken the power of the Vanadis all the time,sometimes even provoking and tolerating war between the Vanadis to do so, in fear they might rebel against him.

[Leonardunitylim]

About the anime adaptation, Even if it is rushed, it can't be worst than mahou sensou and even if it is, Ellen is there (signature and DP) =D

About the Tigre toppling the king to get throne, i'd say not that huge of a chance. Plainly because that nobody in the royal family recognizes him as one even though all the vanadis would fight each other for him. Tigre either gets selected by the King and then bed the kin of the King or raze Zchted from the ground up with all 7 vanadis backing behind him (highly doubting it)

[nosaer]

As a Vanadis you are expected to declare your loyalty to the king, but I don't remember reading about the Viralts leading them to the king. Also you guys seem to be forgetting that the current king is on his death bed. Tigre doesn't have to overthrow him, he just has to settle the civil war that Valentina is creating. Valentina is also an excellent example of a Disloyal Vanadis. she does her best to disobey the king and escape her duties, yet the Viralt has not abandoned her. Olga as well spent 2 years away from the country skipping her duties and the viralt didn't leave her either. I think loyalty to the king has become more of a tradition than a requirement.

Next, many Vanadis have the utmost in trust from their territory. I would say Mira, Ellen, Sophie, and Probably Valentina as well (she has made her area richer then they've ever been). If there were some discontent to rise up, I doubt it could be anything too large, atleast with these vanadis. Mira's and Ellen's followed them specifically to fight against the soldiers of their own country over their Vanadis' personal feelings. my example here being Ellen fighting liza because of personal feelings to sasha.

Next Common people often don't care about the authority of those too high up until it directly affects them. If Tigre took over, he wouldn't do anything to directly dissatisfy the people. He's been raised to help them as much as possible.

But the biggest reason why Tigre could become king is that Succession in Zechted is not very clear. the next successor is only known to a tiny amount of people. when he dies there will be a fight over who takes over. Valentina herself is planning to take advantage of this situation, but I doubt she will be able to.

[SeaDam]

I agree with the above. I think the Viralt are operating on their own set of rules that have little to do with the present king's watered down blood.

[shadow1296]

is it possible that there is a rule in zchted that the vanadis can appoint the next king as long as they are all in agreement about the candidate and it doesn't matter if that candidate is related to the king or not?

[GrrDraxin]

^ That would be interesting, and would solve many problems about the line of succession, but it's not likely such a clause exists in order for that to happen. And even if it did, it's likely to be something so obscure that it's virtually unknown except to the most educated in Zhect's history tp know such a thing, much less the Vandis. Though Tier Na Fal might tell Tigre about it, and whomever witnesses that telling. But who knows how well that will go over.

[nosaer]

Originally Posted by shadow1296

is it possible that there is a rule in zchted that the vanadis can appoint the next king as long as they are all in agreement about the candidate and it doesn't matter if that candidate is related to the king or not?

Seeing as how this is a work of fiction, it is possible that such a rule exists. It hasn't been denied at least, but at the same time I find it unlikely that there would be a law specifically for this situation.

Besides they wouldn't need such a law anyways since no body in the country could stand against all 7 of them together. They are the only ones who can keep each other in check. Sasha and Sophie were the only ones stated to ever break up Ellen/Mira conflicts before and besides Tigre. (everyone else walks by and pretends to not see it).

That last point of Tigre settling Ellen/Mira disputes is very strong evidence of his capacity to be the king.

I myself am personally curious about the links between Zechted's history, the Black Bow's history, and Tir na fa (+ sisters). Apparently there are even similar legends in Mouzinel (which was how Tigre got the star shooter moniker). I wonder if/when the author will explore these legends more since they all seem likely to be true.

[Brin A'sair]

Re-reading volume 1, I came upon this interesting quote:

Originally Posted by v1 c6

“... Do you dislike the King of Zhcted?”
“Though I don't hate him, I don't particularly like him. He is the King now, so I only contact him occasionally.”
As if remembering something displeasing, Ellen's beautiful face turned bitter.
“Our country is maintaining peace and stability for now. We have had decades, even a century in which we were unable to expand our lands. Though every King has been excellent in his own way, none were able to properly conform to the presence of all seven Vanadis. Often, because they fear the Vanadis, they came to argue with us. Now, the Vanadis, while pretending to follow the King, scheme to appoint an appropriate person to lead.”
“How terrible...”
While frowning, only those words could be expressed.
“None of the Vanadis wish to become king?”
“The Vanadis kneel to the King. The King is to be defended. Those who fight for the King cannot become the King.”
Tigre inclined his head upon hearing her response.
--- Is there some restriction they are bound to?
Though it was beyond his understanding, it was not an impossible story.

Most interesting was the line "none were able to properly conform to the presence of all seven Vanadis." This suggests that perhaps something could occur if all seven Vanadis were to find favor with a single person.

Also interesting was the suggestion that the Vanadis might be limited by some restriction, although whether this exists (let alone what may be involved) is not known.

[nosaer]

^ I read that part of volume 1 all the time lol. I agree about interesting things being possible if one person were to find favor with all 7, but the more interesting point she made to me was

"Now the Vanadis, while pretending to follow the king, scheme to appoint an appropriate person to lead."

that quote right there sums up the situation in Zechted perfectly I think. The vanadis want someone who they feel is fit to lead. everyone who has to follow someone wants to have an exceptional leader. Also the part you're keying in on(about the vanadis' restrictions) seems to be this quote:

"The Vanadis kneel to the King. The King is to be defended. Those who fight for the King cannot become the King."

I think this is Ellen's personal belief here. but at the same time its practically impossible for anyone to just blatantly fight the king, including a vanadis. If one were to try, the king could use all the guards at his palace, or call upon any of the other vanadis to fight for him. They seem to be dissatisfied with the king, but not to the point where they will throw the entire country into chaos by attacking him. besides you'd have to have a better reason than "I don't like him" to convince anyone that your attacking him is justified lol.

[Brin A'sair]

Originally Posted by nosaer

They seem to be dissatisfied with the king, but not to the point where they will throw the entire country into chaos by attacking him. besides you'd have to have a better reason than "I don't like him" to convince anyone that your attacking him is justified lol.

True, but if the country were already in chaos due to a civil war with no clear heir, then I can see (most of) them uniting behind one they consider worthy, and - due to their own popularity - that one being considered as much a contender as any of the potential heirs.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by nosaer

Seeing as how this is a work of fiction, it is possible that such a rule exists. It hasn't been denied at least, but at the same time I find it unlikely that there would be a law specifically for this situation.

Besides they wouldn't need such a law anyways since no body in the country could stand against all 7 of them together. They are the only ones who can keep each other in check. Sasha and Sophie were the only ones stated to ever break up Ellen/Mira conflicts before and besides Tigre. (everyone else walks by and pretends to not see it).

That last point of Tigre settling Ellen/Mira disputes is very strong evidence of his capacity to be the king.

I myself am personally curious about the links between Zechted's history, the Black Bow's history, and Tir na fa (+ sisters). Apparently there are even similar legends in Mouzinel (which was how Tigre got the star shooter moniker). I wonder if/when the author will explore these legends more since they all seem likely to be true.

The problem isn't with nobody can withstand all 7 Vanadis, but there will be discontent and people are stupid enough to test their luck(e.g. the King's nephew).There's bound to be loyalists or opportunists stupid enough to stir up a rebellion against someone whose claim to the throne is questionable at best, black dragon or no black dragon.There's also the fact that, apart from the Vanadis, there are other nobles with powerful armies on their side.We also have no telling of what exactly is the attitude of the Vanadis' own subjects to their decision. There are opportunists like Elizabeta's father who are willing to defy their local Vanadis. Therefore, there will be civil war whether the Vanadis supports Tigre or not.

[Kazandu]

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

The problem isn't with nobody can withstand all 7 Vanadis, but there will be discontent and people are stupid enough to test their luck(e.g. the King's nephew).There's bound to be loyalists or opportunists stupid enough to stir up a rebellion against someone whose claim to the throne is questionable at best, black dragon or no black dragon.There's also the fact that, apart from the Vanadis, there are other nobles with powerful armies on their side.We also have no telling of what exactly is the attitude of the Vanadis' own subjects to their decision. There are opportunists like Elizabeta's father who are willing to defy their local Vanadis. Therefore, there will be civil war whether the Vanadis supports Tigre or not.

No only that, we talking about a foreigner taking the throne, in a country with a monarch system this is practically a call to arms to all the kingdom, i think people simple assuming that tigre will become the next king of zetch, thing i frankly doubt, the only chance that something like tigre becoming a king if some sort of cathastrophic outbreak happens involving zetch and brune, will all in disarray and without royal family aviable to succeed the throne maybe and only maybe as a someone who overcome the disaster leading the people he will become king.

it's the only kind of plot twist that open the king tigre route :P

[Trung-t-rung]

Originally Posted by Kazandu

No only that, we talking about a foreigner taking the throne, in a country with a monarch system this is practically a call to arms to all the kingdom, i think people simple assuming that tigre will become the next king of zetch, thing i frankly doubt, the only chance that something like tigre becoming a king if some sort of cathastrophic outbreak happens involving zetch and brune, will all in disarray and without royal family aviable to succeed the throne maybe and only maybe as a someone who overcome the disaster leading the people he will become king.

it's the only kind of plot twist that open the king tigre route :P

And we conveniently have demons and Gods in the mix now for that kind of set up.

[GrrDraxin]

Of course, there is also the possibility that all the vandis whom support Tigre would come before the king with Tigre in tow to nominate him into the line of succession.

This could be especially true should Tigre put down a major civil uprising in Zhect that for all intents and purposes should have torn the country completely apart. Though it's possible that Valentina would be branded the villain for such an event with her scheming. Should it be proven anyway. But it's also possible that she could end up being the victim of someone else's even more malicious scheme (here's looking at you, Baba Yaga-chan), and end up being saved by Tigre heroically enough to garner her admiration and support.

So, if they all support Tigre to bring him into that situation to potentially rule, Tigre may have to go through a series of trials just like those he's done in Lebus for Eli so far, I think he can manage it. Plus whatever benefits the bow could bring him in interaction with the vandis' viralts. Though a bit harder to prove, if there is no clear history of where the bow came from, and who made it, and why Tigre is able to wield it, even when he doesn't have the physical bow.

If the demons do take a more active role in these events, Tigre may end up with yet another title to his name in addition to "Star Shooter, and the one the late Brune king gave him. Probably something like "Demon Slayer" or something of the like.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by GrrDraxin

Of course, there is also the possibility that all the vandis whom support Tigre would come before the king with Tigre in tow to nominate him into the line of succession.

This could be especially true should Tigre put down a major civil uprising in Zhect that for all intents and purposes should have torn the country completely apart. Though it's possible that Valentina would be branded the villain for such an event with her scheming. Should it be proven anyway. But it's also possible that she could end up being the victim of someone else's even more malicious scheme (here's looking at you, Baba Yaga-chan), and end up being saved by Tigre heroically enough to garner her admiration and support.

So, if they all support Tigre to bring him into that situation to potentially rule, Tigre may have to go through a series of trials just like those he's done in Lebus for Eli so far, I think he can manage it. Plus whatever benefits the bow could bring him in interaction with the vandis' viralts. Though a bit harder to prove, if there is no clear history of where the bow came from, and who made it, and why Tigre is able to wield it, even when he doesn't have the physical bow.

If the demons do take a more active role in these events, Tigre may end up with yet another title to his name in addition to "Star Shooter, and the one the late Brune king gave him. Probably something like "Demon Slayer" or something of the like.

There would have been conditions for the King to nominate Tigre as his successor. As I've mentioned, the King's someone who would rather watch the realm burn than to let the throne pass out of his family's control. He will probably make him marry his granddaughter or grandniece, perhaps even his daughter whose husband's missing if she's still young enough.The King won't accept the Vanadis' demands unless he can guarantee his family remains in control.Even if all seven vanadis come together to crush the loyalists, chances are that it would be a long,difficult task since they will be fighting the entire country, including their own followers, since all seven Vanadis would have been labelled as traitors.

[Ramero]

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

There would have been conditions for the King to nominate Tigre as his successor. As I've mentioned, the King's someone who would rather watch the realm burn than to let the throne pass out of his family's control. He will probably make him marry his granddaughter or grandniece, perhaps even his daughter whose husband's missing if she's still young enough.The King won't accept the Vanadis' demands unless he can guarantee his family remains in control.Even if all seven vanadis come together to crush the loyalists, chances are that it would be a long,difficult task since they will be fighting the entire country, including their own followers, since all seven Vanadis would have been labelled as traitors.

We haven't see the royal rules yet about the lineage of Zchted's sovereign or maybe just a default rules about the succession of the throne.

Tigre may holds a very high potential to be the leader as such he is naturally a leader as we can already see he prove his natural leadership during civil war and Asvarre civil war.

If the decline and unrest on Zchted rises and none of nobles can suppress it except Tigre, King Victor have to discuss with Regin about taking Tigre as next line of succession since Tigre is also a noble with Earl title.

Tigre naturally already have five Vanadis on his back (Include Sasha that was already passed away) and we're observing how Tigre capture Elizaveta's heart and making her support him. The last one sure is Valentina and somehow she will change her plans once she noticed that entire Vanadis except Valentina is supporting Tigre.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by Ramero

We haven't see the royal rules yet about the lineage of Zchted's sovereign or maybe just a default rules about the succession of the throne.

Tigre may holds a very high potential to be the leader as such he is naturally a leader as we can already see he prove his natural leadership during civil war and Asvarre civil war.

If the decline and unrest on Zchted rises and none of nobles can suppress it except Tigre, King Victor have to discuss with Regin about taking Tigre as next line of succession since Tigre is also a noble with Earl title.

Tigre naturally already have five Vanadis on his back (Include Sasha that was already passed away) and we're observing how Tigre capture Elizaveta's heart and making her support him. The last one sure is Valentina and somehow she will change her plans once she noticed that entire Vanadis except Valentina is supporting Tigre.

We've already seen the rules for how the throne's succeeded in Zchted. Tigre would have definitely been seen as a usurper if he dared to claim the throne since he lacks connection to the actual ruling house and the only claim he has is the support of the Vanadis and himself being the supposed black dragon. A tint of illegitimacy will still remain even if the King appoints him as his successor without having any blood or marital claim to the throne. Quite messy over the long term if he tries something like that.For one, there would have been people who try to restore the 'legitimate bloodline'. In addition, you are basically legitimizing the principle that might equals the right to become King. Any noble with an army or two would have tried to gun for the throne whether they have a legitimate claim or not whether Tigre show signs of weakness in the future(which is incidentally how the Roman Empire collapsed).

There's also the fact that while Tigre may have the support of most Vanadis in the present, the current generation ain't gonna live forever. Sooner or later, they will either die or retire. The new Vanadis might not be as supportive as the previous generation and may in fact be as ambitious as Valentinia,potentially causing greater disturbance using Tigre's lack of legitimacy as an excuse.

There's also the point that Victor doesn't give a damn about the order of the realm as long as he can assure the continued rule of his house. He is after all a selfish individual who "prioritized his personal safety first and foremost." He doesn't care about what happened to the realm, seeing how never bothered to intervene in the fights between the Vanadis despite the disturbances they bring. Now that he is dying anyway, he's got nothing to lose. Another thing is that, he most probably wouldn't call in Tigre to suppress any nobles if it meant giving the throne to him since all the contenders are basically members of his own family.

Overall, these reasons indicate that unless he marries a member of Victor's family, Tigre won't be able to hold onto the country peacefully.He'd be fighting one rebellion after another.