Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[bladeofdarkness]

but the point i raised that that all that related ONLY to their turning aginast lelouch
other then that they didnt actually DO anything that would make them karma hudini's

@morbo
even LELOUCH didnt know just how destractive it would be
and i am not accusing lelouch of failing to care about the people he hurt
i'm accusing lelouch of HURTING the people he hurt (that he doesnt care is a minor issue)

@FruitsPunchSamurai
they didnt know how big of a douch their leader really was
and if they did they wouldnt follow him (which is proved once they DO learn the truth)

[azul120]

Originally Posted by FruitsPunchSamurai

Just saying that they KNEW how they stand in the rebellion and they KNEW that they needed Zero regardless of his origin, clearly stated in Stage 12.

It's too bad the members of the Kyoto House, who knew Zero's identity and were the ones to give them their first major funding infusion, had been executed following the Black Rebellion. But I guess the BKs would have been under the impression that Lelouch had geassed them.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

but the point i raised that that all that related ONLY to their turning aginast lelouch
other then that they didnt actually DO anything that would make them karma hudini's

It's their mistakes in that situation, the gravity behind them, and that they don't have to answer for them that make them Karma Houdinis.

@FruitsPunchSamurai
they didnt know how big of a douch their leader really was
and if they did they wouldnt follow him (which is proved once they DO learn the truth)

What about Ohgi? Yeah, he turned out really great himself.

[Betteroffer]

To add to Morbofist's list:

1. They not only stole what they believed was poison gas (which was "the great Naoto's" plan funnily enough), but both Tamaki and Nagata expressed not just a willingness but desire to use it, the latter on a public highway in a city.

2. While they were admittedly forced off the road by the Purists, they then fled into the civilian populated Shinjuku ghetto (which was populated by civilians), and while Kallen was making the comments about not using the gas in public, not driving into the ghetto, and getting the civilians to safety and risking only the resistence members getting caught, Ohgi was ALL TOO QUICK to use those civilians to hide amongst, knowing full well that Britannia would shoot through them to get to the terrorists.

Ohgi was already just as bad as anything Zero would ever do. The only difference was scale.

3. There is the fact that we never hear about the JLF making any sort of response or apology statement for Kawaguchi. Even though we know Britannia heavily censored its media, Diethard's ability to get Zero footage during the Orange incident proves that they could easily steal on or two cameras and make a quick "We don't condone Kusakabe's actions" kind of statement.

4. Ohgi 'captured' Viletta because she mumbled about Zero, and he wanted information on him. For all Ohgi knew, Viletta was a spy for Zero who needed to get critical information to him ASAP. Then he didn't take her to Zero, or even a proper hospital. What if she had a concussion or other medical problems?

5. Tamaki, the guy who doubted Zero up until near the end of the first season suddenly declares he "knows Zero, and knows that Zero wouldn't hesitate to kill their hostages," despite the facts that:
a. They were f**king children.
b. They were Kallen's school friends (he had to know this given his apparent familiarity with Ohgi and Kallen)
c. Zero had thus far demonstrated a dislike for using hostages.
d. While he did take them as hostages he PERSONALLY guaranteed their saftey to them, with Tamaki in the room (and yelled at Tamaki to not attack them).
e. They. Were. F**king. CHILDREN.

And as for Euphemia, while I don't believe she deserved what she got, I have already mentioned why the SAZ would actually have produced a huge rise inviolence in Japan, the other Areas, and created a high-risk of igniting the Third Pacific War, which would probably lead to a literal world war in the Code Geass world.

[FruitsPunchSamurai]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

issue)

@FruitsPunchSamurai
they didnt know how big of a douch their leader really was
and if they did they wouldnt follow him (which is proved once they DO learn the truth)

But did they betray him because he's a Britannian prince or a douche?

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by FruitsPunchSamurai

But did they betray him because he's a Britannian prince or a douche?

Err, considering how Schneizel, Clovis, and Lelouch turned out, character-wise, isn't "Britannian prince" and "douche" mostly synonymous?

[FruitsPunchSamurai]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

And as for Euphemia, while I don't believe she deserved what she got, I have already mentioned why the SAZ would actually have produced a huge rise inviolence in Japan, the other Areas, and created a high-risk of igniting the Third Pacific War, which would probably lead to a literal world war in the Code Geass world.

People always brings this but they forget that fact that Zero/Lelouch agreed to work side with Euphie for the SAZ to work, the Black Knights stands for justice not just for Japan but for everywhere, if riots were to break out Zero can use his influence to stop it. Besides as R2 clearly shown with the SAZ NO RIOTS OF ANY SORT BROKE OUT in the other areas when Nunnally reestablished it for Japan.

[kir44n]

They betrayed him because they did not trust him. His actions over the previous few days/weeks had been highly suspect, and getting someone in to capitalize on that distrust was something they were only too willing to do.

The fact is, they had an idea that he was a douche (they being douche's as well, it only makes sense their leader is one). However, they used the "proof" Schneizel provided as a convenient excuse. he could have told them Zero was a leperous wombat from New Zealand high on Vicodin, and they would have jumped on him.

[bladeofdarkness]

@samurai
douchbag with a geass and a hell of alot of dirty secrets

@Betteroffer
that is actually a really excellent post
i'd rep you if i could

1)we dont know what the original target was suppose to be, but i cant really agree with tamaki and nagata either
i'll give you that one i suppose

2)they were fighting to get the civilians out, i doubt they suspected that clovis would order the complete destraction of the entire getto (he did this to cover up C.C, which they didnt know about)

3)the JLF are an armed resistance force that opposes britannia, admiting that there was a factioning within their own ranks is not good for the group overall

4)ougi's treatment of villeta is a very poor mistake that stems from his mistrust in ZERO, but its not something he does out of malice

5)tamaki's actions i cant explain, you win again sir

@kira
lelouch is a MUCH bigger douch then any of them
he just happpens to be the protagonist douch
which is why he cant go on a murdering spree when one of his love interests gets killed, but ougi is a traitor for LISTENING to his

[FruitsPunchSamurai]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Err, considering how Schneizel, Clovis, and Lelouch turned out, character-wise, isn't "Britannian prince" and "douche" mostly synonymous?

Eh. Just something I wanted to bring up, the BK were eating out of Schneizel's hands after his performance, seems kind of ironic that they did the same for Zero/Lelouch for so long.

[kir44n]

Lelouch is only a bigger douch because he actually succeeded in many of his plans, whereas the OotBK were incompetent idiots. What prevented them from being bigger douches wasn't intent, but skill.

You do point out the Narrative Causality though that guarantees the protaganist held to a higher standard compared to anyone else when it comes to cause/effect actions. Of course, some shows simply wouldn't be interesting if this weren't the case XD.

Anyways, I think its fairly agreed that the OotBK are basicaly lap dogs to whomever appears to them to be the most successful of fulfilling what they need. While it can be understood on a very basic, primitive level (they aren't exactly brilliant), it lends to their ultimate uselessness overall.

[bladeofdarkness]

lelouch spends the entire first season manipulating the entire japanese people for his own selfish aims AND NOTHING ELSE (remarking to C.C how the japanese cant resist the appeal of the bullshit he feeds them)
its only in season 2 that he starts to give a crap about other people (and not even the start of season 2, its only at turn 7)
no matter how you look at it, lelouch is a much bigger douch in season 1 (the season where all the examples Betteroffer gave are in)

[azul120]

Originally Posted by kir44n

Lelouch is only a bigger douch because he actually succeeded in many of his plans, whereas the OotBK were incompetent idiots. What prevented them from being bigger douches wasn't intent, but skill.

That doesn't make him a bigger douche, just a far more competent one.

Lelouch acknowledges the blood on his hands midway through S1, but notes that he's ready to see it all the way through to victory so that the lives he claims in his campaign won't be in vain.

The things Ohgi does in R2 in particular threaten to throw that progress out the window. And that in a way would ultimately be the douchiest thing that could be done.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by azul120

That doesn't make him a bigger douche, just a far more competent one.

read my later statmetnt

[azul120]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

read my later statmetnt

I did. I was just replying to kir44n's statement, and edited my own right after this post of yours.

[Betteroffer]

@Blade: Thanks.

2. They might not have expected Clovis to encircle the ghetto and try to slaughter everyone, but they still tried to use it to hide in, knowing that the military would mow doen anything in their path. They may have been expecting a smaller scale slaughter, but a slaughter nonetheless should have been expected, and they still hid there.

I'll again say that Kallen was the closest thing to a voice of morality in that operation. She was the one who told Ohgi to focus on helping the civilians, saying she would be a decoy. Ohgi agrees, but after they've been beaten down by the Lancelot Ohgi calls out to her and leads her to that warehouse full of civilians.

3. They weren't run by a council setup, but by general Katase, who seemd to rely too much on Tohdoh, who himself was furious with Kusakabe's actions. If both their leader (Katase) and their symbol (Tohdoh) had said that what Kusakabe did was vastly out of line to what they stood for, then there wouldn't be too much opposition.

Zero obviously managed to glorify himself and make the JLF look as bad as Britannia at Kawaguchi. If anything making a statement denouncing Kusakabe would probably prevent many of the JLF soldiers from going "Hey wait, Zero was right, I should join him instead!" Beyond that, they should have been able to recognize the strategic value of public opinion like Lelouch did. Even if they hadn't realized it before (which is pretty bonheaded for such a large scale resistence movement), they should have realized it afterwards in the following weeks when the BK were busting the refrain cartels. They even commented how it was getting Zero a massive support boost and how Kyoto had decided to give Zero the Guren rather than the JLF.

4. Malice isn't necessary. He still held onto a captive who he should have reasonably assumed was either an ally and informant, thus Zero could better help her than Ohgi could, or an enemy, thus either killing her, or giving her to Zero to alert him that they might be being traced somehow would be the wiser decision. Regardless of what she was, the option of handing her over to Zero was the best choice for their operations as a whole, but Oghi didn't do it.

As far as Lelouch manipulating them, most of the core BK admitted that as long as they got Japan back, the UFN could go f**k itself. Lelouch did contemptible things for a large scale noble goal, the core BK were thinking about abandoning other countries in the same position they were in once they got what they wanted. Lelouch wanted to help himself and the world. The BK only wanted to help themselves.

EDIT:
@FruitsPunchSamurai: Zero would be reduced to little more than a figurehead. All he could do would be to go on TV and wag his finger at any rioters, and most of the other intact terrorist cells wouldn't bother joining, since they had never bothered relying on public support, and were too nationalistic to even consider joining the SAZ.

As far as the R2 SAZ being riot free, this was because the Japanese and other Numbers were scarred sh*tless at the prospect of what it meant for a seemingly sweet little princess of Britannia to suddenly start spouting off about equality. They had (from what they knew) very good reason to view this as Britannia planning another massacre for the lulz, and Zero's last rebellion in retalliation had been crushed and he could hardly be considered at anything close to full strength at the time.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

As far as Lelouch manipulating them, most of the core BK admitted that as long as they got Japan back, the UFN could go f**k itself. Lelouch did contemptible things for a large scale noble goal, the core BK were thinking about abandoning other countries in the same position they were in once they got what they wanted. Lelouch wanted to help himself and the world. The BK only wanted to help themselves.

Exactly. And while I'm not necessarily giving Lelouch a free pass on the stuff that he did, doesn't the fact that his father told him he was dead early in his childhood for confronting him about his mother's murder and his little sister's crippling before subsequently sending them both off to Japan, where he would bear witness to his former homeland's occupation of that area explain sonewhat his deranged and malicious ways? It's surprising and a credit to him that he managed to maintain his sense of empathy. A lesser man would degenerate into an insane sociopath, though Lelouch himself appeared to be that way at times.

[Bionicman]

I didn't think the Black Knights were entirely unjustified in breaking with Lelouch (although how and why they did it raises questions), but I was pretty appalled at how they sided with Schneizel through the remainder of the series. Schneizel was the main proponent of the development of the FREIJA, and he approved of arming Suzaku's frame with it; he bears far more responsibility for the destruction of Tokyo than anyone else. That the Black Knights were willing to essentially fight under him is a huge Wall Banger. And my memory is fuzzy, but I think I remember a scene in the final battle where Schneizel tells some of the major members of the Black Knights that he's using them as pawns and they still fight for him.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

lelouch portreyed HIMSELF as a worse enemy then Schneizel during the final arc
that was the whole POINT
the OOBK didnt side with Schneizel
they OPPOSED leouch (becouse of things HE did)
and they ended up turning to Schneizel for help becouse the man
A)had shown that he was opposing lelouch as well
B)up to that point was mostly portrayed as a fairly noble demon (they didnt know about his CB plan)

First, they did side with Schneizel, taking orders directly from him in a war; that they did it to oppose Lelouch doesn't change that. Second, the argument that they should support Schneizel (instead of sitting on the sidelines, or opposing them both) because Lelouch was worse implies the embrace of the arguments that 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' and 'support the lesser of two evils'; in that case, they shouldn't have had a problem with what Lelouch did (he was being evil to defeat what both thought was a greater evil). Third, Schneizel was the prime instigator of the use of FREIJA on Tokyo, which should have made working with him anathema to the Black Knights. It's understandable if they weren't aware of Schneizel's role in the use of the weapon when they first made a deal with him, but by the time Lelouch and Schneizel were ready for war, they should have figured it out.

[darthfury78]

Originally Posted by kir44n

A New rumor sequel. Now, is this the same rumor as mentioned back in December/January, or is this a different rumor all together? I'd like to see the sauce if anyone has the link handy.

Regardless, the series is definitly ripe material for sequel / spinoff, and with the world economy in the can, Bandai needs some sure cash-cow product (Code Geass & Gundam)

The success of the series gives the staff the option to do another Code Geass project. Although, it was my hope that they could remake Code Geass R2 into an alternate version that was intended to be presented at the latenight audience before the timeslot change. It was to have been the second half of Code Geass season one, starting with Stage 26 to Stage 50.

Since there were a lot of rumors regarding Code Geass R2, I wrote to Tanigushi regarding the idea of remaking Code Geass R2 the way that he had initially planned before he was forced to change the structure of the storyline to suit the new mass audience. An audience that had already seen the first season of Code Geass to begin with.

I don't feel that the staff EVER intended Code Geass to be another generic version of Gundam.

This is a series that could have been extended from Stage 1 to Stage 100, which would have been more than satisfactory to explain this epic.

For Code Geass R2, a lot of details were missing. It was rushed. The retelling was a waste of time. Thus, there were things that pracatically repeated itself from season one.

[snowdevil_crow]

You wrote to him? o_0 Did he ever write back?

And yeah, I agree with you. I would love to see all those issues expanded on, and seen the series go on longer.

[darthfury78]

Originally Posted by azul120

Exactly. And while I'm not necessarily giving Lelouch a free pass on the stuff that he did, doesn't the fact that his father told him he was dead early in his childhood for confronting him about his mother's murder and his little sister's crippling before subsequently sending them both off to Japan, where he would bear witness to his former homeland's occupation of that area explain sonewhat his deranged and malicious ways? It's surprising and a credit to him that he managed to maintain his sense of empathy. A lesser man would degenerate into an insane sociopath, though Lelouch himself appeared to be that way at times.

And Charles did that to protect his son from V.V.'s interest. Doesn't anyone believe that Charles might have geassed Lelouch with those memories before he had sent him and Nunnally to Japan? As soon as Marianne appeared, Charles became the loving father that Lelouch once knew before her death. The Emperor did mention to Lelouch that he was the one who geassed Nunnally into thinking that she was blind to prevent her from knowing the truth. Why couldn't he had done that with Lelouch as well?