Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Lorhand]

That's the thrown version which abandons the 100% kill ability. You should actually know that Gae Bolg has two functions. If Archer casts Rho Aias and is within Gae Bolg's 10m range when Lancer curses Archer, Archer's dead. It's that simple.

[mirakura]

Complicated -_-'

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

That's the thrown version which abandons the 100% kill ability.

Actually, the thrown Gae Bolg still has an "always hits" ability, but because Rho Aius has the concept of "always blocks projectiles", the two cancel out. However, Rho Aius lacks a concept of "always block melee attacks", so the close-range version of Gae Bolg will bypass it.

It is possible to block Gae Bolg, but only if you have a shield or weapon with a concept that outdoes the concept of "always hits due to causality reversal". Avalon does that because Avalon takes Saber out of the world entirely and is immune to even True Magic, but Rho Aius does not.

[mirakura]

Much, less complicated

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by mirakura

Lol, it's cos he/she said 'there are no possible counters'. Just proving there is. Haha, Zeltrech's Second magic could help protect as well XD

Not really a good reason to dump down your own post to a level where it is difficult to engage with it intellectually.

The post I'm reacting to is already a lot better than your troll post

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Barbed Spear that Pierces with Death [Noble Phantasm]
Gae Bolg.
The cursed spear that always pierced the opponent's heart after being thrust.
Reverse causality --- a technique which broke the rules by launching the spear after it was already established that the heart was pierced.
Since the target was already hit by the spear, the opponent would always be hit regardless what kind of evasive maneuvers he took.
In order to evade Gae Bolg, one would require Noble Phantasms that automatically resurrected the target after death like that of Berserker's, or a high degree of Luck sufficient to negate the curse of the spear.
To put it into game terms, it would be an insane Noble Phantasm with a base damage plus an additional component that scaled with the target's HP.
For example, if Saber's HP was 100, then Gae Bolg's damage would be (Spear Damage + 100). She would absolutely be dead if it hit.
It was also an efficient Noble Phantasm with mana consumption only in the double digits.
Anti-Unit Noble Phantasms probably did not get anymore economical than this.
By the way, Piercing Death Thorn was a technique Lancer developed himself.
Originally Gae Bolg was a thrown Noble Phantasm. It was an Anti-Army Noble Phantasm rather than Anti-Unit.

Basically these are the counters.

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Actually, the thrown Gae Bolg still has an "always hits" ability, but because Rho Aius has the concept of "always blocks projectiles", the two cancel out. However, Rho Aius lacks a concept of "always block melee attacks", so the close-range version of Gae Bolg will bypass it.

It is possible to block Gae Bolg, but only if you have a shield or weapon with a concept that outdoes the concept of "always hits due to causality reversal". Avalon does that because Avalon takes Saber out of the world entirely and is immune to even True Magic, but Rho Aius does not.

Always hit != Hits the heart and that's what I was referring to. It's even in the description of the text in the status page that the thrown version abandons the hits-the-heart part for attack power. I know the mechanics behind Rho Aias vs Gae Bolg.

[mirakura]

Ah sorry

[phishmeister68]

My whole discussion stems from that portion of text from the VN I've shown. So everything has to be in regards to that context.

So what it basically means? It means Saber fought Lancer once already. She knows about Gae Bolg now. What countermeasures are there for next time?

Saying Avalon can fix it is wrong. Shirou doesn't know about Avalon or what it even is. Saber doesn't know. Shirou is partnering with Rin. What about Archer? How will he deal with Lancer? Should he even deal with Lancer or just leave it to Saber? Should he gang up with Saber on Lancer?

Anyway, I don't think Saber's luck can save her all the time. Again, that's with the context of the story, when they possibly have to deal with Lancer next time. Saying Saber's luck saved her once doesn't mean its a counter.

If they have that discussion about Lancer, I don't think they will go, "Saber's so lucky, no problem, fight him again." I think if she's gonna rely on luck again, she's gonna die.

On the subject of Rho Aias, it blocked Lancer's thrown Noble Phantasm, not Gae Bolg, so I'm not sure it'll work, like Cherry_Lover said.

Anyway, I don't know about the getting out of range part. I'll leave that for another post.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by phishmeister68

So what it basically means? It means Saber fought Lancer once already. She knows about Gae Bolg now. What countermeasures are there for next time?

When she sees Lancer go into the position to use it, run like hell. It's what Archer would do....

[Lorhand]

The getting out of range part before it's used is what is said in CM2. Gae Bolg is used in a unique stance by Lancer, so someone like Saber with her instincts and Archer with his trained mind would know instantly when Lancer intends to use it and react accordingly.

[phishmeister68]

Isn't it all japanese text in CM? Can you send it to me, please? Need my email?

Anyway, in a running contest between Lancer, Saber, and Archer, I think Lancer should take first, Saber second, Archer last to everybody else, no? Even Berserker's very fast. But can they get out of range before Lancer strikes with Gae Bolg?

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

The getting out of range part before it's used is what is said in CM2. Gae Bolg is used in a unique stance by Lancer, so someone like Saber with her instincts and Archer with his trained mind would know instantly when Lancer intends to use it and react accordingly.

TBF If it was that easy Saber would have been able to avoid it the first time. Even Rin could tell when Gae Bolg was going to be used and the end result. You need to know what Gae Bolgs range actually is to be able to truly avoid it, since it requires you to be at the edge of it most of the time. Plus Saber without Avalon doesn't even have a counter against the thrown version let alone the melee one. Shes probably actually better of taking the melee on rather than the Anti army always hit version.

[phishmeister68]

Assassin forced Saber's hand. She determined that she had to use Excalibur on this samurai Servant who seemed to have no special powers, but she stopped. Something happened. Then she fainted.

Shirou carried her back, put her down for a second. Tried to pick her up again then Rin shows up and said, "...Well, I don't care. It doesn't concern me what your taste is or what you doing."

lol

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

TBF If it was that easy Saber would have been able to avoid it the first time. Even Rin could tell when Gae Bolg was going to be used and the end result. You need to know what Gae Bolgs range actually is to be able to truly avoid it, since it requires you to be at the edge of it most of the time. Plus Saber without Avalon doesn't even have a counter against the thrown version let alone the melee one. Shes probably actually better of taking the melee on rather than the Anti army always hit version.

I'm talking about the second time Saber faces Lancer, because that is what phishmeister68 factors in. At that point she already knows about the barbed spear version and might figure out what to do the next time he uses it. And her instincts did help her avoid the attack, at least partially. But yes, she probably can't defend herself alone well against the thrown anti-army version.

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by phishmeister68

Assassin forced Saber's hand. She determined that she had to use Excalibur on this samurai Servant who seemed to have no special powers, but she stopped. Something happened. Then she fainted.

Shirou carried her back, put her down for a second. Tried to pick her up again then Rin shows up and said, "...Well, I don't care. It doesn't concern me what your taste is or what you doing."

lol

What is your point? Lol, that was hilarious thought XDD

................

I don't get what you guys are arguing about. It all sounds the same to me :P.

[GreyZone]

Yes, I am confused as well.

Originally Posted by phishmeister68

My whole discussion stems from that portion of text from the VN I've shown. So everything has to be in regards to that context.

So what it basically means? It means Saber fought Lancer once already. She knows about Gae Bolg now. What countermeasures are there for next time?

Saber? Use Excalibur before Lancer gets too close. I think Excalibur is higher ranked than Gae Bolg, so Saber's projectile should blast Gae Bolg away in a "projectile duel", bypassing the "always hit" function.

Archer? Spam broken phantasms or something... or just summon Unlimited Blade Works and counter Gae Bolg with Gae Bolg copy while spamming swords at lancer.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Yes, I am confused as well.



Saber? Use Excalibur before Lancer gets too close. I think Excalibur is higher ranked than Gae Bolg, so Saber's projectile should blast Gae Bolg away in a "projectile duel", bypassing the "always hit" function.

Archer? Spam broken phantasms or something... or just summon Unlimited Blade Works and counter Gae Bolg with Gae Bolg copy while spamming swords at lancer.

Saber would never get off an Excalibur blast before Lancer could use Gae Bolg. It takes too much time to charge up.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

I'm talking about the second time Saber faces Lancer, because that is what phishmeister68 factors in. At that point she already knows about the barbed spear version and might figure out what to do the next time he uses it. And her instincts did help her avoid the attack, at least partially. But yes, she probably can't defend herself alone well against the thrown anti-army version.

It wasn't her instincts it was her luck and only luck. that prevented her heart being skewered the first time.

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

It wasn't her instincts it was her luck and only luck. that prevented her heart being skewered the first time.

Not stated in CM2, which explictly adds that her instincts had part in saving her ass.