Medaka Box [Manga]

[urca]

oh,JCafe24 *facepalms*.
i see why i wasnt able to see the links -_-'.
thanks guys :3.

[Odd]

Has anyone here read Ping Pong by Matsumoto Taiyou? because I think the theory on heroes is very similar to what's going on in Medaka Box right now.

The way I see it is that Zenkichi has been playing the role of the "hero" the whole time becuase of how lonely Medaka is:

- Giving her a purpose when everyone else abandoned her because they couldn't handle her due to their own inadequacies
- keeping her company after the middle school incident (I'm sure not being able to convert Kuma must have left her with issues for a while)
- When she was brainwashed and became Medaka-Chan II he was the one who fought her and reverted her back to her original state through words afterwords
- To eliminate the problem known as Kumagawa he was ready to shoulder her pain and sacrifice himself and kuma

and now he has be her "hero" again because the not equal's have gotten involved and left her alone at the top because everyone has now, Zenkichi has to become her enemy to show her that he will always support even if it doesn't seem like it


My version might seem distorted to the original theory but it still makes sense, in a way.

[kingstonbeer]

^ THIS

And thank god someone isn't making either of them out as extremely petty, almost ridiculous caricatures

[yuzen003]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

"Giving Zenkichi an assignment" is pretty much the definition of taking his help for granted. Medaka was never asking for "help" from Zenkichi because she believed that Zenkichi wanted the same thing as her and, even if she didn't ask him, would have decided to do it on his own anyway. Medaka wasn't any sort of "third beneficiary", she was acting in the position of an "enabler" or "mediator" for what (she thought) Zenkichi really wanted.



Medaka didn't love and esteem Zenkichi for "helping" her (in fact, she almost always discouraged it). Medaka loved and esteemed Zenkichi for helping other people. What Medaka thought was that, even if he complained all the time, in the end Zenkichi really did care about other people. It is hilarious that people talk about the "sacrifices" Zenkichi made for Medaka when practically their entire relationship Medaka has been repeatedly telling him that they were wrong and showing him that they weren't wanted.

If Zenkichi valued other people, then he got the appreciation of other people in return (Emukae, Munakata, etc.). If Zenkichi valued being relied on and thought of as special by Medaka, he got that by the high estimation she always held of him. Sure, Zenkichi was making "sacrifices", but he was making them for his own sake.

Also, don't patronize people by comparing Zenkichi to Medaka's "parent" when he himself admitted to having the mentality of a two year old for 13 years.

Chapter 1 approximately page 12 Medaka to Zenkichi "I need you. All I want for you is to be by my side" direct request with no third party getting a benefit. Chapter 25 page 17 Medaka to Zen "Don't be like that, I'm really thankful for you. I was actually coming to save you, but I ended up getting saved". Two examples of Medaka directly receiving help or needing help from Zenkichi refute the claim Medaka never asked or needed help from Zen.

The parent and child anaology is not a parallel to the Zenkichi and Medaka relationship, more an example of a self sacrifice where the one sacrificing does so willingly and happily. Zen loves Medaka, he puts her well being above his own so he happily made the sacrifices he did. Re-read chapter 34 where we are shown Zen's inner thoughts, he knows Medaka will win any fight but against some people be hurt more then her opponent in the process. Zen resolved himself from that time to prevent anyone like that from getting close to her. This decision was not because he thought he would be appreciated or Medaka wouldn't be able to win without him, but because he wanted to prevent her from getting hurt. You can assign additional motives if you wish, but we have a direct view into Zen's thoughts. We know one of his motivations for staying with Medaka all this time was a selfless desire to keep her from collateral psychological injury as she destroys all her opponents (and he knows she will beat all her opponents without his help so it's not a chauvinistic thing).

[kingstonbeer]

Yuzen then can i assume that ajimu's statement that he was patronizing her was that Zen in the ended should have believed in her mental strength/growth to not let such injuries get to her?

[Takigashima]

Patronizing maybe, but would you leave a person who had become psychologically unstable to their own devices. Not likely.
As a friend, he did what he thought was right, upholding his ideals and creating a new one which was to never let anything like that happen again. You can't fault him for being a good friend.

[kingstonbeer]

Fault him no was just wondering if that was what she meant

Personally in the long run i'm on zen's side only because of the beatdown otherwise i dont see either being higher in my eyes specially with trollgawa around

[Not Somebody]

Originally Posted by Takigashima

Patronizing maybe, but would you leave a person who had become psychologically unstable to their own devices. Not likely.
As a friend, he did what he thought was right, upholding his ideals and creating a new one which was to never let anything like that happen again. You can't fault him for being a good friend.

You can fault him for being possessive controlling sheltering, but that doesn't exactly apply. Medaka has grown from her trials with Kumagawa, even though she went through pain to grow from it. Had Zenkichi succeeded in slaying Kumagawa, you have a bunch of terrible stuff, like

-No Zenkichi (Zenkichi fanboys leave)
-Medaka distraught (Zen dead, never got to reform Kumagawa, no normal support or whatever)
-Kumagawa dead (No support from anybody, manga canceled instantly)

What Zen wanted to do was not to comfort Medaka, to help her grow, he wanted to surround her in walls so she'd never get hurt. He didn't want to let her do her methods, because of the risk of injury. It's like exposing your weaknesses to people to help them. As bad as isolation is, her getting hurt was not something he'd want to swallow. It's not an inclination of people to see those they cherish hurt, even if it furthers their well being. The same can be said of doing bad deeds for a good purpose. But Ajimu boiled it down for Zen, your good deeds of protecting her aren't helping things at all. There are some circumstances where protecting is a good thing, in my opinion the way Zenkichi is doing it in the present situation is bad, but it's not like I'd say a person who jumps in front of a bullet to protect someone is also bad. Ajimu told him straight, you're not helping her. Instead, here's this bad deed you can do, that will do good for you.

On a random side thought, Zen can not possibly win the "fight", because Medaka doesn't really see a "fight" as a single battle. She won the fight with Kumagawa, even though she lost a battle. The only way for Zen to beat Medaka, is to constantly be better than her, every single time she challenges him, every single time he challenges her, from the victory on. It's not so much a winnable fight, as it is a lifelong goal. Zenkichi isn't going to kill Medaka, and if Medaka kills Zenkichi, he loses. The only way to win is third parties intervention, which a third party has already formed, along with Ajimus plans. You could say the same thing about Medaka, but her goals are different, so she probably won't run into that snag. If Ajimu's plan is to turn it into a stalemate, Ajimu might win. A fight between two Medakas could possibly go on forever.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

The whole point of this arguement is not that Medaka doesn't value Zen, it's that she doesn't consciously value Zen, hence why she constantly says there are no special people in the world. She may unconciously value him more than others but in her mind he's the same. Hence why she considers it more interesting to have him as an enemy than as a friend and also why she says Zen is the sort of person she likes which isn't actually referring to Zen himself but his type of personality.

You make this conscious/unconscious distinction like you think that explains Medaka's character. After ignoring Medaka's perspective for most of the series, that's just some bullshit gut improvisation/misinterpretation you made from one line of dialogue. Medaka used to value Zen. Now, she doesn't. There's nothing unconscious about her feelings. Medaka's opinion of Zenkichi changed, because he betrayed the basis of their relationship. She beat him up brutally because she genuinely believes there's no longer any other way (or point, even) for them to communicate.

Then he went on to attempt to sacrifice his life in order help her and what he percieved to be the rest of the world. She does help him but it's miniscule in comparison to what he does for her, hence why he is considered by Naze, Medaka's own sister to be her sacrifice.

Naze never called Zenkichi Medaka's sacrifice, lol. Munakata did. That's the guy who decided to kill Kumagawa and Kikaijima. You sure you feel like trusting that guy's definition of "sacrifice"? I'm sure that's what he would've called killing Zenkichi's Student Council compatriots in the name of "friendship", too.

From everything shown and hinted in the manga their relationship is one-sided. At this point in time unless something extremely radical occurs logic dictates it was one-sided and anything else at this point is fan-fiction unless proven otherwise.

It's pretty clear that there's only one thing which was one-sided about Medaka's relationship with Zenkichi. Even though Medaka always respected Zenkichi's desire to show off or "be cool" like he didn't need her protection, Zenkichi never got it through his thick skull that she never needed him to "protect" her. If Medaka never physically helped out Zenkichi, it was because he was too proud to ever let her think that he needed it--in all other aspects Medaka did just as much for Zen as Zen did for Medaka. I don't even see how Medaka could have been more clearly appreciative. Words of trust, appreciation, and praise. Faith in his character and abilities. Acknowledgement of her own need for him beside her. Tears whenever she witnessed his suffering. Endless worry when he got in dangerous situations. A hand on his shoulder when he let her presume that he needed it. What more could Medaka have done? Zenkichi himself valued his image of "a cool guy doing his best to protect a girl" more than anything; how exactly do think she was supposed to have "helped" him?

Zenkichi's attitude was pretty much the definition of "dumb male chivalry". Of course it was one-sided--it's sexist. Don't rage 'cause the girl was better than you and you can't play out your "hero" fantasy anymore. It doesn't matter how much he "sacrificed"; when Medaka made it clear she never wanted it in the first place, he was wrong.

[yuzen003]

Ajimu stated he treated everyone with the same patronizing attitude not specifically Medaka, but she followed up with the comment on holding Medaka back. If you think Zen is acting superior to Medaka by not believing she has the mental strength to take such injuries it would certainly be patronizing, but did he ever imply he would be better capable of dealing with that mental damage himself? He was normal so he knows he would take more damage dealing with the same problems then Medaka would given he doesn't always win, but he would rather take the injuries then allow Medaka to get hurt. It is the act of a friend protecting someone they care for so I don't know if the patronizing comment was in reference to their relationship (Zen generally doesn't treats Medaka as an inferior). I thought it might be in reference to Zen's acceptance of people and things in the series, as a normal most of the events of the series should be insane but he just treats it all as typical even when he knows it is messed up. An example of this is chapter 95 where Tsugiha starts talking about her delusional world, from his expression Zen knows she's probably crazy but he proceeds to treat her normally. Munakata pulling weapons from hammerspace, Shiranui drinking ramen like a beverage, Emukae spending 2 pages planning their future life together 2 minutes after they meet all and Zen treats them as if they were normal people that he can like, dislike, fight, befriend and communicate with normally. Zen has at times thought the people around him are insane, but he accepts their insanity as their natural state so he just goes along with it while thinking they are crazy.

[telamont]

Just read the raw. Pretty interesting chapter.

Before this, I was reserving judgement on Medaka's actions towards Zenkichi until we get more details. But after this chapter, and seeing how well she treated Akune, I think I've swung quite firmly towards the camp that she had her heart in the right place. Not really sure if it's been covered by others before, those massive walls of text were simply too... massive. And numerous. But I now finally feel like contributing one of my own .

Before "Reevaluation", I think Medaka's view of Zenkichi was:

He gave Medaka her ideals --> He shares Medaka's ideals --> That's why he stays by Medaka's side --> Medaka should share the burden (give tasks to him too) so that Zen does not feel left out --> Everything Zen suffered at her side, he suffered for the sake of his / their shared ideals (not for Medaka) --> Zenkichi is a strong, independent man, living his life to the fullest --> DO WANT.

Wrong? Naive? Hopelessly idealistic? True, but it was almost beaten into our heads in the earliest chapters that's simply how she is. Then "Reevaluation" happened, and her view became:

Zen does not necessarily share her ideals --> Question: Then why was he by her side, trying so hard, following her in everything those 13 years? --> Answer: He was living purely for her sake? --> Then for the past 13 years, Zenkichi was never really his own man? --> DO NOT WANT.

And so she took steps to change that. Whether it was necessary "tough love" or overly harsh and cruel is up to debate. But I think she wants what everybody wants for Zenkichi: for him to step out from under her and be his own man. So her heart at least is in the right place. I'm really looking forward to seeing how Nisiosin addresses this situation (that is if he decides to touch upon it at all ).

On another note, Dark Hero was surprisingly awesome. Feel a little sorry for Zen though. When the unholy trinity of Medaka/Kumagawa/Ashin'in are on stage, they command most of the audience's attention, if not by pure force of personality, then by the fact that they have so far been the primary movers and shakers of the manga. When they're not, Zen has to jostle for attention with the likes of Dark Hero, Naze, Shiranui, and now Akune and other colorful personalities in the same faction. Really unfair. Looking forward to seeing how the author manages to make Zen more relevant in his own arc, assuming of course that this is Zen's personal arc, and not Nisiosin just using him as a catalyst to bigger and better things.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by yuzen003

Chapter 1 approximately page 12 Medaka to Zenkichi "I need you. All I want for you is to be by my side" direct request with no third party getting a benefit. Chapter 25 page 17 Medaka to Zen "Don't be like that, I'm really thankful for you. I was actually coming to save you, but I ended up getting saved". Two examples of Medaka directly receiving help or needing help from Zenkichi refute the claim Medaka never asked or needed help from Zen.

In neither of those examples did Medaka actually ask for Zen's help. In the second example Medaka neither needed it or asked for it; she was just consoling Zen that she didn't think his intervention was useless (between Medaka and Zen, for whose sake exactly do you think he stopped the kiss with Miyakonojou for? lol). In the first case, in that same conversation Medaka explicitly said that she never needed any of Zenkichi's help; all she wanted was his support and (emotional/ideological) company.

The parent and child anaology is not a parallel to the Zenkichi and Medaka relationship, more an example of a self sacrifice where the one sacrificing does so willingly and happily. Zen loves Medaka, he puts her well being above his own so he happily made the sacrifices he did. Re-read chapter 34 where we are shown Zen's inner thoughts, he knows Medaka will win any fight but against some people be hurt more then her opponent in the process. Zen resolved himself from that time to prevent anyone like that from getting close to her. This decision was not because he thought he would be appreciated or Medaka wouldn't be able to win without him, but because he wanted to prevent her from getting hurt. You can assign additional motives if you wish, but we have a direct view into Zen's thoughts. We know one of his motivations for staying with Medaka all this time was a selfless desire to keep her from collateral psychological injury as she destroys all her opponents (and he knows she will beat all her opponents without his help so it's not a chauvinistic thing).

It is a chauvinistic thing, and it's also a selfish/narrow-minded thing. Not only did Zenkichi wish to prevent Medaka's growth, he also wanted to prevent her from helping others (when she feels that that is the explicit purpose of her life). It's not like Medaka is unable to tolerate Zenkichi's overtures towards "protecting" her. In the end she doesn't mind throwing a couple crumbs out for Zenkichi's adolescent need to be "cool". However, what Medaka can't stand, and for which she always rebuked Zenkichi, was his refusal to let her try to help other people. Moreover, in the end what Medaka believed, was that Zenkichi also wished to help others himself.

Sacrificing himself, or worse other people, for Medaka's sake is exactly what she would never want or appreciate. Zenkichi kept going against Medaka's very dream in doing so. Why is Medaka supposed to "appreciate" a sacrifice that goes against the very purpose and ideals she lives for?

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

In neither of those examples did Medaka actually ask for Zen's help. In the second example Medaka neither needed it or asked for it; she was just consoling Zen that she didn't think his intervention was useless (between Medaka and Zen, for whose sake exactly do you think he stopped the kiss with Miyakonojou for? lol). In the first case, in that same conversation Medaka explicitly said that she never needed any of Zenkichi's help; all she wanted was his support and (emotional/ideological) company.



It is a chauvinistic thing, and it's also a selfish/narrow-minded thing. Not only did Zenkichi wish to prevent Medaka's growth, he also wanted to prevent her from helping others (when she feels that that is the explicit purpose of her life). It's not like Medaka is unable to tolerate Zenkichi's overtures towards "protecting" her. In the end she doesn't mind throwing a couple crumbs out for Zenkichi's adolescent need to be "cool". However, what Medaka can't stand, and for which she always rebuked Zenkichi, was his refusal to let her try to help other people. Moreover, in the end what Medaka believed, was that Zenkichi also wished to help others himself.

Sacrificing himself, or worse other people, for Medaka's sake is exactly what she would never want or appreciate. Zenkichi kept going against Medaka's very dream in doing so. Why is Medaka supposed to "appreciate" a sacrifice that goes against the very purpose and ideals she lives for?

Umm no what you said made little to no sense. Who do you gave the wish to help others in the first place, bcause he believed that was her purpose and always has? It's not that Zen think's Medaka's helping others is wrong it's that he thinks the way she's going about it and what she's trying to achieve is wrong.

Basically he believed her purpose was to help humanity not to change it into something else entirely e.g a race of people that can do no wrong.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Umm no what you said made little to no sense. Who do you gave the wish to help others in the first place, bcause he believed that was her purpose and always has? It's not that Zen think's Medaka's helping others is wrong it's that he thinks the way she's going about it and what she's trying to achieve is wrong.

Basically he believed her purpose was to help humanity not to change it into something else entirely e.g a race of people that can do no wrong.

lol. I'm convinced now that you're just totally confused and lost about this manga. What you've just described is actually Ajimu's goal and the point of the Flask Plan.

Please give any evidence that Zenkichi thinks Medaka is trying to "change humanity", lol.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

lol. I'm convinced now that you're just totally confused and lost about this manga. What you've just described is actually Ajimu's goal and the point of the Flask Plan.

Please give any evidence that Zenkichi thinks Medaka is trying to "change humanity", lol.

Umm no look at it this way she believes every human is like her and has the ability to always suceed (stated in the manga) so she goes out of her way to help everyone to always suceed and be "happy". It's not rocket science.

And again it even stated by Aijimu that Medaka's goal and the flask plan were very similar in a way.

[Not Somebody]

Basically he believed her purpose was to help humanity not to change it into something else entirely e.g a race of people that can do no wrong.

What did he think reforming was about, letting things continue? She changes the people, but she at the same time doesn't change them. Very early on, she reforms the swimming club, by changing their views on life, yet not actually changing the people to always succeed or anything.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Not Somebody

What did he think reforming was about, letting things continue? She changes the people, but she at the same time doesn't change them. Very early on, she reforms the swimming club, by changing their views on life, yet not actually changing the people to always succeed or anything.

No she obviously can't do that because everyone is not like her but she does assume everyone has the possibility of doing so. Take for example the previous arc. In the end what she ultimately showed was that it was possible to succed at defeating her. Essentially saying anything is possible.

Anyway i just noticed this page which was kinda weird. Who the hell is the guy in the far left, why don't I remember him and why does he look so much like Zenkichi especially when he fought Munkata.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/medaka...07/c053/3.html

[Not Somebody]

Anyway i just noticed this page which was kinda weird. Who the hell is the guy in the far left, why don't I remember him and why does he look so much like Zenkichi especially when he fought Munkata.

If you mean the far right, that's one of the plus six, the guys that got roflstomped by Kumagawa.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Not Somebody

If you mean the far right, that's one of the plus six, the guys that got roflstomped by Kumagawa.

I know that it heavily hints on the page but why does he look so much like Zenkichi, did Nisio just recycle the design?

[Not Somebody]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

I know that it heavily hints on the page but why does he look so much like Zenkichi, did Nisio just recycle the design?

If you're asking if he's related to Zen, don't think so. If you're asking why he looks similar, make up any reason you feel like, it will probably suffice.