(L) Seirei no Moribito (Guardian of the Sacred Spirit)

[7Th]

Originally Posted by leongsh

I do think it all comes down to what do you expect from the show. It's a talkie for sure and not one where action predominates. If this show is a large jigsaw puzzle, most of the recent episodes are smaller separate parts that we are seeing being made which gives us either a glimpse as to how each of these parts will link up or guessing its eventual placement.

Each episode that does not seem to add on to the main storyline is actually being used to show the world to us and delve deeper into each character so as to let them show more of themselves. The recent episode, Episode 11, gives us a glimpse into the spirit world and a hint of the possibilities that the shamans with the knowledge and skill can do. There's also more exposition between Balsa and Tanda. The speed with which Balsa reacts in late in the episode with respect to Tanda gives us a clear-cut indication how much Tanda means to Balsa when we already know how much Balsa means to Tanda from the earlier episodes.

This show is a very nice change in that not is it just technically excellent but it uses one of the mature ways of storytelling that is not often found in anime that link up in one way or another when it is doing exposition outside the main storyline. Perhaps you are more attuned to a more linear storytelling direction with sufficient and regular doses of action thrown in in comparison with how this show is being done.

I completely disagree with this. I'm not feeling Seirei no Moribito either, even if it isn't a bad show by any means I don't find it really memorable at all and don't come with the action argument here as that just a shameless prejudice about the liking of simplistic storytelling against someone just because he doesn't loves the show you declare the best in years, specially when that couldn't be farther from the truth when talking about BluWacky as he happens to be one of the most coherent and probably objective people around this places, if only for him most of the times accepting when something is "well-done" even if not particularly his style.

As for my part, I don't really find the presentation here specially compelling either, not as a fantasy or as a slice-of-life. The enchantment is just not there for me, not much, even if it comes around some moments here and there, sense of discovery, mysticism or actual amazement. I don't feel the low-key settling down mood or the etherealness ambiance I was expecting to either. It's just... very safe at times, without a real feeling of "I want to know more about this world" either. That's just me anyway.

[4Tran]

About Chagum's Luck:

Spoiler for Episode 10:

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Is Chagum just lucky, or are his perception and luck influenced by the spirit within? I guess I can accept that he is just remarkably perceptive, though the fact he can identify the master's "tells" in a game he's never seen before is pretty impressive. Not to mention that he could observe almost immediately how the man casting the coins made them come up the correct way.

If he started off with the assumption that the coin people were cheating to begin with, then it wouldn't have been that hard to have figured out how they were doing it. The coin people were rather bad with their cheating, so I'm more surprised that they hadn't been caught earlier. If the coin thrower decided on the outcome himself without any signal, then Chagum would never have caught on. They were especially foolish in continuing to cheat even when Chagum challenged them. A clever cheater would have purposely changed the coins so that the last set of people would win to "prove" that they were being fair.

Then again, they shouldn't have had to cheat in the first place - in fact, the game was already so stacked in their favor that they'd probably have made far more money if they'd played the game straight, or if they even made the odds more favorable to their customers.

On a bet of either V or VV, the house edge is 25%. On a bet of VVV, the house edge is a whopping 62.5%(!) - this is known as the sucker's bet. In comparison, in American roulette, the house edge is just 5.26% on any single number (the edge is 2.7% in European roulette). However, even this much smaller edge results in massive profits for the casino. With better odds for the customers, they would likely gamble more, and end up losing yet more to the coin people.

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

In the final match he and the master have equal chances of winning (3/8), but perhaps there's a "higher power" watching over Chagum that ensures his victory? While I cheered his victory (rare that I speak out loud to an anime, but this was one instance), perhaps the story, and Chagum himself, might have benefitted from his losing? My guess is that pendant is going to play an important role down the stretch.

This is likely nothing more than chance. Both he and the owner had about equal chances of winning as long as the game was fair, so supernatural intervention isn't necessary. If it had occurred, I'd expect that there'd be more evidence for it. In all likelihood, Chagum probably shouldn't have made that bet (especially since he didn't know if they'd cheat again).

[wrex_japan]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Hmm...the episode felt a bit like a filler to me, probably because

Spoiler for episode 11:

...the proposal for Saya's hand in marriage came out of nowhere. Isn't it a bit strange that someone would have made the proposal in the first place? I know that Saya is cute and all, but technically, she is a street urchin, while the proposing family seems to be of somewhat higher social status. Does this mean that social status below the royal family isn't that rigid?

And what did Saya mean about Tohya getting punished?

That aside, the artwork remains outstanding. So that's how the spirit world looks like, eh? I liked how the entire hill turned into the shell of a gigantic tortoise.

Balsa <-> Tanda is already a given, but it's still cute when Chagum gave his knowing smile. The surprise is that Saya likes Tohya, haha. I had thought that their's was a "sibling" relationship.

Spoiler:

The family was not necessarily that high class; they were rice wholesalers. Saya is a cute girl, so why not? The marriage was arranged by a go-between. The thing about Tooya being punished was probably something the go-between told her to convince her to agree; she said that because Saya and Tooya were not really siblings but were living together would cause Tooya to get punished.

The hill turning into a giant turtle was really Miyazaki-esque. ^_^

[monir]

I must be pretty late at making this observation, but I'll make it nonetheless. After watching episode 9 and 10, I couldn't help but notice how there had been no villain in this series so far. I mean, the only thing that comes even close to being a "villain" is the egg residing inside of Chagum.

On the point of lack of plot progression, the main reason I'm not personally bothered by it, is because I don't feel that eagerness to move things forward when watching this show. So far I have been content on how things have been presented to me, but at the same time, I do realize the show will need to be moving soon plot-wise.

[gaguri]

About the villains, well, I was expecting the holy sage to be the ultimate antagonist (in the sense of mastermind of obstacles in front of Balsa), and display more eviiiilllness despite his reason for doing so, but he can't really be considered as such at this point. I also expected few of those assassins to step up to villain roles, but the entire cast is all sympathetic and has morals and ethics, all acting on honour and the ideals more profound than mere greed, power, fame, etc. I am not sure if this is a good move looking at the overall context, since any epic fantasy anime, literature or movie I've seen had a certain degree of evilness in villains that the heroes (representing mighty power of good!) had to overcome.

Originally Posted by 4tran

While the Sea of Shadows is told mostly from Yoko's perspective (it's only natural given that the orginal novel is told in limited omniscient format), a lot of the focus is less on her character than it is on the setting. What's unusual is the sheer amount of attention to detail that's placed on subjects that really have nothing to do with the characters. Yoko's only a small player on a very big canvas, and that's the very nature of the Twelve Kingdoms universe.

You're absolutely right. First thirteen episodes is only a smart part of 12 Kingdoms. That's why I only tried to compare with that particular arc (because in my opinion, the show as a whole goes down a bit after that point) only, not the entire show.

And kudos to Saffire, that made much more sense. But this still suggests that 12 Kingdoms spent far more time on the world than the character. I agree in the context of looking at the entire show, which I wasn't interested in. I guess my effort to use only the first thirteen episodes completely failed despite my references, heh.

[orion]

Originally Posted by gaguri

About the villains, well, I was expecting the holy sage to be the ultimate antagonist (in the sense of mastermind of obstacles in front of Balsa), and display more eviiiilllness despite his reason for doing so, but he can't really be considered as such at this point. I also expected few of those assassins to step up to villain roles, but the entire cast is all sympathetic and has morals and ethics, all acting on honour and the ideals more profound than mere greed, power, fame, etc. I am not sure if this is a good move looking at the overall context, since any epic fantasy anime, literature or movie I've seen had a certain degree of evilness in villains that the heroes (representing mighty power of good!) had to overcome.

From what I heard, we've still haven't been introduced yet to another fraction hunting Chagum. Maybe they are more evil than the other guys. Unless, this is actually going to be continued in OVA form or another series, they have to start progressing the main plot soon imo.

[Saffire]

Originally Posted by gaguri

And kudos to Saffire, that made much more sense. But this still suggests that 12 Kingdoms spent far more time on the world than the character. I agree in the context of looking at the entire show, which I wasn't interested in. I guess my effort to use only the first thirteen episodes completely failed despite my references, heh.

I don't think that necessarily has to be true. Having never seen it, I can't say. I can only go by what I've heard. I wasn't trying to say that they throw character development to the wind. It's quite easy to focus just as much on the characters as the setting, but a lot of the time, it's rather unusual for shows or books to take a bit of the time fleshing out the world and how it works to a greater degree than might be suspected.

For instance, Kino no Tabi focuses a lot on the character Kino and how that character behaves to the world Kino goes to. We get to learn a lot about this character through the reactions to the different countries they (Kino and Hermes) visit. What, however, sets it apart from your normal anime, is that it takes a lot of the running time to go in depth about the worlds and how they work. Each world is very, very different, and the each episode spends a LOT of time going over the mechanics, customs, etc. because it's important to the story. That does not, however, mean Kino gets thrown away to the wayside. It is just the setting is a more important piece to the proverbial puzzle of the show than usual. And oftentimes, the setting itself is just as important to the story as the characters themselves. Kino no Tabi wouldn't be half of what it was without the intriguing worlds Kino journeys to, so focus on the setting itself does not mean that character development gets slaughtered. Perhaps Twelve Kingdoms is very much the same.

Anyways...

Originally Posted by gaguri

I am not sure if this is a good move looking at the overall context, since any epic fantasy anime, literature or movie I've seen had a certain degree of evilness in villains that the heroes (representing mighty power of good!) had to overcome.

That's another thing that has perplexed me during the run of this show... that there are no "100% Evil" characters. Well, from our point of view of what evil entails anyway. At first, I admit I thought Chagum was going to be a brat, and learn to be humble through his journey with Balsa; the King was going to be some cold-hearted overlord; the Holy Sage would be an evil, scheming SOB in a cloak plotting to overtake the kingdom somehow or another using his powers as a sage, and so on and so forth. Yeah, I was way wrong.... as I soon realized about three episodes in. XD I was very happy that I was wrong, actually. The characters just seem more human that way.

I honestly don't know if this is going to turn out to be a good thing for the show, or a bad thing. I can certainly see it turning into the latter (not very much at this point, but I can see it happening). I can also see this... pace Seirei has been moving on for nearly half of the show turning out to be perhaps its greatest weakness. I don't think it'll be enough to ever---ever---throw this show down the OMG Terrible!!!1 hole. (It'll still probably be my favorite show of the season), but it might be the potential flaw that gets cited most often in reviews for this show.

For right now, however, I actually like what they're doing in terms of the "evil" ness factor. I like how, for once, the sage is not someone evil who's plotting to take over the empire, or that the king is just someone who wants to kill his son and doesn't really care about him. So far, the King seems to care a lot for his son, and seems to think his decision is something that's for everyone's own good. It's just atypical, and the show dares to flip off the usual stereotypes of your usual fantasy literature. (Big, bad wizard hell-bent on destroying the world and everything in it, I'm looking at you!)

However, the pace the show is currently moving at does worry me to some extent. It has been moving really slow, taking the time to develop the characters. I love slice of life, so I have no problem (and I eagerly look forward to) each new episode. I LOVE to death the episodes that I have watched, and has not depreciated my love for this show in any way. If you take out this "Slice of life" arc away from the rest, they're doing what they're doing almost perfectly. But as a whole, I expected things to be moving a little faster, given what I saw in the first fiveish episodes. I can see the slow down turning people off, because you're expecting something drastic and monumental to happen (I.E. Chagum getting found out) and... nothing does. I am hoping, despite my love for these fun character-centric episodes, that they will get moving, and speed up the pace a bit.

Perhaps it would have been better if they spaced out these character-centric episodes during the entirety of the twenty-six, instead of grouping them. Only time will tell if that will be a "Yea or nay" prospect to this show. However, when I thought about it, and my ideas concerning the future of the plot (Hint: It has to do with a lot of running.) I realized that the characters might be so caught up in whatever they may be doing that character development like right now's may be nigh impossible. If, say, Balsa and Chagum are made to flee and are currently being chased, they just might have to leave to a new location every day. If that happens, the chance for cool, slow, deliberate character development as we see now may truly be an impossible dream. This is especially true concerning the main cast and their dynamics with one another as they interact. In fact, this might be the only time we get to see all of the main cast together, growing, teaching, and forming bonds with each other, which very well may be essential in coming episodes when (and if) the are finally separated.

Thusly, it might be appropriate to take this current excuse they have (and a good enough one) to take the time to really flesh out the characters in the current, peaceful setting now when they have a time to take it slow. And when the plot catches them by the scruff of the neck, they will have characters that have been fleshed out a bit already and be able to move on with confidence.


However, this is only my take, and most likely, I probably will be very, very wrong. xD

[orion]

Ep. 11 sub is out.

Character-centric episodes are fine as long as some reference to the plot is in order. But finding out that Saya likes Tooya is an "and......so what?" moment imo. Does it really matter to the main plot at all? Is this a key to Chagum's survival?

Does this mean that the series could have been done in less than 26 episodes and that they are padding the schedule?

We won't know anything and can only guess after the series completes its run imo. In R2, this is probably a 9 DVD release title. In R1, it will prob be a 6 DVD release.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

There are only two series I watch almost immediately after the subs are released, this show and Nodame Cantabile.

I wished I had your self-control. The subs were taking too long, but that said, Episode 11 sure got subbed pretty fast. ^^b

And what can I say. Now that I understand Episode 10 fully, I'm once again astounded by how the creators can turn even a simple coin game into such an exciting episode.

I repeat, Chagum for President! I don't even care if it's the right era or not anymore. The kid's got so much potential, I'd look forward to the day he ascends the throne.

Originally Posted by wrex_japan

Spoiler:

The family was not necessarily that high class; they were rice wholesalers. Saya is a cute girl, so why not? The marriage was arranged by a go-between. The thing about Tooya being punished was probably something the go-between told her to convince her to agree; she said that because Saya and Tooya were not really siblings but were living together would cause Tooya to get punished.

Actually, my objections to Episode 11 being a filler is very much diminished now, after catching a vital line uttered by Tohya early in Episode 10. I didn't catch the line while watching it raw.

Spoiler for Episode 11:

So it seems Saya impressed quite a number of families by being a hardworking girl while hiding out in the village with Tohya. No wonder that she was getting so many marriage proposals then. Without catching that line from Episode 10, I thought it was pretty abrubt that Saya was suddenly married off in Episode 11 without any prior warning.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by orion

finding out that Saya likes Tooya is an "and......so what?" moment imo.

Perhaps, though in some earlier episodes I thought we might be moving toward Chagum x Saya, despite their obvious difference in station. I was rather hoping to see how that might turn out.

[Sci-Fi]

Touya and Saya relationship (different from the usual formula - one isn't pretty/handsome) was a plot device for the author/animators to show a peek of Nayugu and to deepen the plot by hinting that the two worlds/realities co-exist and that it is possible to visit either world and come back.

I would suspect/speculate that it would be natural that there eventually will be Nayugu "hunters" after Chagum too...the egg may pose a threat to some faction in the spirit world. Otherwise it would be a series showing Chagum growing up like Balsa did with a few close calls. Shuga suspects Chagum is still alive, but I don't expect him to make the same mistake and tell anyone this time around IF he finds him. The human hunters may still harbor doubts/suspicions, but the trail is cold now.

[monir]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

And what can I say. Now that I understand Episode 10 fully, I'm once again astounded by how the creators can turn even a simple coin game into such an exciting episode.

Agreed! I think for most of us, there is a huge difference in regards to the enjoyment factor when watching this show with subs, and when watching it RAW. The tension created by episode 10 was something I've experience when watching shows like Akagi, or Hikaru no Go.

[karumofin]

Originally Posted by orion

Either way, it's dragging imo. We're almost at the half way point for the series and there's no clear direction that Chagum has to go yet. I hope that this doesn't make a mad dash to tie loose ends at the end.

i think the pacing is marvelous, i didnt expect this series to take its time to develop all of its characters and im pleasently surprised with the direction this has been going to in the last few eps.

what i expected was a series with one action-packed crazy run after the next, what im getting now is characters and how they are trying to build up their lives and i really like that. its a sign of true quality, when balsa wonders about how she didnt realize the two kids had feelings for each other and chagum only gives her and the doctor a look, everything is said without the use of a single word, i take moments like these over action sequences during which chagum discovers how awesome he really is any day

[TinyRedLeaf]

Just an idle thought that passed through my mind.

Cutting off one's topknot is usually a symbolism of death -- more specifically, it often marks the beginning of permanent exile. Seen from this context, I can understand why Chagum was so emotional when he had his hair cut in Episode 6.

That said, I've noticed that he has become quite a different boy (not just in terms of looks, haha, I do admit he looks better without the effeminate hairstyle). If you observe closely, he's become more aware of hardship, and responds with a kind of quiet determination that you wouldn't at first know he possessed. And his intelligence is becoming that much more noticeable now compared to when he was still a prince. The playfulness is gone, and it is replaced with a very remarkable level of perceptiveness.

I don't know the extent to which this is caused by the spirit egg inside him, although I'm more willing to bet that Balsa and others have been a very good influence on him. I think it was SeijiSensei who first wondered about this -- it would be very interesting to watch this fledgling prince come of age.

[myopius]

Personally didn't find episode 10 that exciting... Since these kinds of scams are something that goes on even in present days, I was familiar with them, and it seemed like the story-tellers were relying on the interest of people who haven't heard about such things to make the episode.

Still enjoyed it though, as I've enjoyed every episode.

Originally Posted by orion

Character-centric episodes are fine as long as some reference to the plot is in order. But finding out that Saya likes Tooya is an "and......so what?" moment imo. Does it really matter to the main plot at all? Is this a key to Chagum's survival?

What I was thinking. Saya and Tooya are nice characters, I enjoy their presence, but if they were main characters I wouldn't watch the show.

Also, why is it impossible to not pair characters together? A guy and a girl just can't stay friends, can they... The final bit where Chagum giggles at Balsa/Tanda (I assume that's what it was about, can't imagine what else it could...) surprised me too, I wasn't aware they were so clearly a pair either.

Nayug was quite cool. The giant-sized fish and the hill-turtle were really cool, I'd love to explore a place like that. The lighting and coloring were great for achieving a dream-like effect.

Really looking forward to more serious developments. I enjoy these "small adventures" but I think the main storyline has a lot more potential for unique developments.

Does this mean that the series could have been done in less than 26 episodes and that they are padding the schedule?

What's this about 26 episodes? ;_; And I'd been hoping SnB would be a 4-season series.... Like a laid-back Juuni Kokuki with continuity, or something.

[gaguri]

epi 10
Minor complaint about Chagum betting his precious neckless against the pride in a gamble. If I recall correctly, that neckless is something his mother gave him, literally the last object of memento that ties them together. To gamble that just to maintain his pride (if you can call it that) seems foolish, since, unlike his previous games he had no control over the outcome. I think I would have been more impressed if he just laughed at such a notion, and explain how he has absolutely no intention of risking something so valuable in such a stupid game that is essentially for entertainment.

epi 11
No complaints about this episode. NOOOOO complaints at all~

Me thinks butterfly is an agent from Nayugu, maybe from the master shaman herself to aid him. Bit too confident if a random butterfly just happen to enter the exact location of Tanda, just happen to fly around Balsa to let Tanda know the connection, then just happen to sit on the flower and then just happen to exit straight away. But that's what I liked about, it hints at some unknown agent pulling strings to aid Tanda, but never explained.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by gaguri

epi 10
Minor complaint about Chagum betting his precious neckless against the pride in a gamble. If I recall correctly, that neckless is something his mother gave him, literally the last object of memento that ties them together. To gamble that just to maintain his pride (if you can call it that) seems foolish, since, unlike his previous games he had no control over the outcome. I think I would have been more impressed if he just laughed at such a notion, and explain how he has absolutely no intention of risking something so valuable in such a stupid game that is essentially for entertainment.

I think you've misread Chagum in that instance. If anything, I admire him for having courage in his own convictions. It's precisely because he is betting his mother's precious earring on a game of chance that makes him admirable. He has already shown that the game -- when fairly played -- is weighted in the house's favour. Chagum also openly claimed he had not wanted to disrupt their livelihood, because their "customers" seemed to be enjoying themselves. But since they were resorting to fraudulent methods, he had no choice but to intervene, in the people's interest.

So, if Chagum had refused to accept the boss' challenge -- because he's afraid of losing his mother's earring -- he would come across as a selfish troublemaker who doesn't care about breaking someone else's rice bowl. The gambling boss already said as much -- now that Chagum has exposed them, they wouldn't be able to show their face in Yogo any more.

But by accepting the bet, he not only demonstrates courage, but also a strong sense of fair play. That's what made Chagum so great in that episode.

[gaguri]

x_x

Chagum didn't want to cause troubles for frauds but intervened for the people who's losing money. He exposed them for what they are, so it's only natural they lose their face in Yogo. Seems like the idea is that, since he disrupt their livelihood, he needs to accept this challenge so that he wouldn't 'come across as a selfish troublemaker who doesn't care about breaking someone else's rice bowl'. That's not much to win considering what could be lost. I would have respected that decision, only if he bet anything but that neckless. Is that really only worth a gamble to prove that he's not some troublemaker in people's eyes? The fact that he is relying purely on chance gives no points to any sense of conviction, furthermore making it seem like he has little or no care about the neckless, hence what it represents. Granted, one could argue that his conviction through the acceptance is valid only because of the neckless' significance, neverthless such a decision is something I can not sympathise with.

I guess I would have been a lot happier if he bet something of his own that is precious to him (although I don't think he has such yet). I saw the neckless as something still partially belonging to his mother, a type of non-spoken promise and notion that he will be ok and alive to return it to her someday,something that he should have kept no matter what to respect and honour whatever memories of his mother, not to throw it on a gambling table like the filthy bag of money by the other guy.

I'm very happy with the fraud's decision though. The money they earned from cheap tricks represent their folly, and having somewhat acknowledging it, he wants to redeem some of their acts by putting all that into a gamble.

[KiNA]

^ And that necklace wasn't precious enough?

It wasn't his decision to choose which item to bet.. The guy said it loud and clear that he betting their whole money for that necklace? How do you think peoples around would react if Chagum asked for items substitution?

The way I see it, to us viewer.. it shows how hard headed Chagum is... to the peoples around, it shows that Chagum knows what his doing (despite they prolly oblivious that it was a true gamble on Chagum's part), and to the fraud, it shows that Chagum do respect them for the reason that its a business.

well.. maybe I cant explain my reasoning well enough for the fraud PoV.. My English is kinda sux for lengthy explanation

[Sorrow-K]

Ep 10

Clearly, the whole point of this ep was to show that Chagum is a capable and resolute character, as well as insightful. I dug the way that it was Chagum's insight that spotted the fraud of the game-runners, rather than the oft-trodden path of having a character rely on his supernatural powers to spot such things which is often the case. It's refreshing, but it also highlights that Chagum is yet another in this show that's worthy of respect. It was virtually a stall, as far as the overarching story is concerned, but a few asides like these aren't unwelcome, provided they expand the characters like this one did.

Ep 11

Ok, never mind the rest of this episode, seeing the world of Nayug was worth the admission price and then some. I love big expansive panning shots of rich vibrant backdrops (provided the setting is interesting, as it is here) in fantasy anime (and movies), since they add so much to the atmosphere, and this series has had them in spades... all of which so far have been glorious to look at. The attention to detail in this show, particularly visually, is just impeccable.