(L) Dragon Ball Super

[rladls2121]

Toppo called Goku evil.
I wonder why Toppo stop saying that to him though?

The warriors from other Universes might as well as discouraged and pressured warriors in Universe 7 of Goku's "evil" doings that they all forcefully into this mess in the first place.

If Goku is evil, then i think Zenoh is way more evil than Goku.

[Tong]

Goku isnt inherently evil, at all, he can ride the Nimbus after all. I dont even know why this is being discussed. However, he's too much of a simpleton to consider the consequences of some of his actions, he basically acts for the moment.

People are quick to point some of his questionable actions that had negative effects, like letting go off Raditz' tail (cost him his life), letting Freeza live, giving Cell a senzu bean (yet again, cost him his life) and, the ever so debatable involvement with Zeno and tournament of power suggestion (that had actually the opposite effect and saved everyone's asses).

But they also forget that some of those actions, like letting Vegeta live/escape just because he wanted to fight him again, had very positive outcomes. He never thought "Oh if I let him get away he may come back and kill everyone I love and care", no, he literally just wanted to fight a stronger opponent again. That is how he's been since the original Dragon Ball, that happens to be A MARTIAL ARTS SERIES. There's no better protagonist than Goku for this kind of genre!

So yea, that who Goku is, a simple yet enigmatic character that you cant put a label on. If you want a tropey hero main character, this isnt the series for you.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Tong

Goku isnt inherently evil, at all, he can ride the Nimbus after all. I dont even know why this is being discussed. However, he's too much of a simpleton to consider the consequences of some of his actions, he basically acts for the moment.

People are quick to point some of his questionable actions that had negative effects, like letting go off Raditz' tail (cost him his life), letting Freeza live, giving Cell a senzu bean (yet again, cost him his life) and, the ever so debatable involvement with Zeno and tournament of power suggestion (that had actually the opposite effect and saved everyone's asses).

But they also forget that some of those actions, like letting Vegeta live/escape just because he wanted to fight him again, had very positive outcomes. He never thought "Oh if I let him get away he may come back and kill everyone I love and care", no, he literally just wanted to fight a stronger opponent again. That is how he's been since the original Dragon Ball, that happens to be A MARTIAL ARTS SERIES. There's no better protagonist than Goku for this kind of genre!

So yea, that who Goku is, a simple yet enigmatic character that you cant put a label on. If you want a tropey hero main character, this isnt the series for you.

being able to ridle the nimbus already was explained by toryama, while he can riddle it this not measn which goku is totally free of "evil and malice" it's just that things are pretty deep on him on a level where even the nimbus could not sense as toryama explainned.

That is the point goku is a warrior, not a hero and it lead him to do "almost whatever" it's needed for him to have a good battle which means do questionable actions which make him do what some peoples could call "evil actions" even if he true don't wanted to be "evil", his desire to battle strong warriors is "his malice and evil side.

And as you tould i'm enjoy it that serie not because goku is a hero and will save the day but because of the battles which are fun(most of the times) and what i'm really wanting here aside the comedy.

and about the tournament, remember "before they come with the" zeno wanted erase x universes, they did make it looks was goku fault, because zeno already had forgotten about want to erase anything and was just playing until goku come and remember him the tournament, that is why almost everyone goes to goku as the villian that was the original ideia and honestly i liked it, but it's looks like make goku "evil" or the villian of the history was too much for "goku fans" and toei had to come with the "but zeno wanted erase everything and goku give a chance of survive", if they had not pulled it "later" it could be totally goku fault as many others actions it was, because in the end goku is just a "single minded person which just want battle strong guys.

[The Green One]

Goku isn't evil. That shouldn't be a question.

He just periodically has ridiculously poor judgement due to his battle boner.

I mean he had to have Piccolo spell it out to him in a shouting rant while Gohan was getting his shit wrecked by Cell that Gohan isn't like Goku and this kind of fight isn't going to get him to release his power to defeat Cell. The OH SHIT expression on Goku's face showed he legitimately didn't get it until he had it spelled out for him.

Goku means well. He honestly does. He just doesn't always exercise the best of judgement and at times it causes a significant amount of trouble for the others.

[RDNexus]

Originally Posted by The Green One

Goku isn't evil. That shouldn't be a question.

He just periodically has ridiculously poor judgement due to his battle boner.

I mean he had to have Piccolo spell it out to him in a shouting rant while Gohan was getting his shit wrecked by Cell that Gohan isn't like Goku and this kind of fight isn't going to get him to release his power to defeat Cell. The OH SHIT expression on Goku's face showed he legitimately didn't get it until he had it spelled out for him.

Goku means well. He honestly does. He just doesn't always exercise the best of judgement and at times it causes a significant amount of trouble for the others.

^This is Goku to a T. Not a hero, not a villian, a lousy father and husband, a battle freak with his own sense of logic. Simple as that. Shame on you, Toriyama-sensei.

[DragonOsman]

^Exactly. And yes, he's a very lousy father and husband, but he does love his family. He isn't like that by choice.

@Blueknight78: Are you forgetting that what Goku had tried to promise with the Zeno at first was just a normal tournament between all of the universes, since the Zeno was originally inspired to do that by watching the tournament between the 6th and 7th universes but had just forgotten about it?

Then when Goku reminded him, he was also thinking about a way to get rid of "useless universes" and would've erased all of them just like that if Goku hadn't come along and made the suggestion for a tournament. That's really what happened. You can go back and watch it again if you don't believe me.

What Goku wanted was a normal tournament like the Tenkaichi Budoukai. That's what he was expecting. And one of Goku's problems is that he's too trusting of others. It's also why he let go of Radditz's tail and why he gave Frieza some of his energy. But again, like I said before, Goku did try to kill Frieza when that same energy was used to backstab him.

In the case of Gohan vs. Cell, he was at least right to believe that Gohan has an amazing power. And that amazing power did come out when Gohan got really mad which is just how he is. He gets incredibly strong when he's angry. Just like any Saiyan. The difference is that the power Gohan has is greater than any other Saiyan - except Goku and Vegeta after acquiring God ki.

[Galaxian]

I love Goku, but there are times when aspect of his personality becomes a bit frustrating and sadly Super tends to highlight those aspects and cranks them up to 11.

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

He gave Cell a senzu bean to make the fight against Gohan "fair"... You know, the evil monster that has saiyan cells and was well on his way to killing everything before his Goku cells activated and made him hold a tournament for the fate of the world (I just noticed the pattern).

Thank you, that post made my day.

[RDNexus]

Originally Posted by Galaxian

I love Goku, but there are times when aspect of his personality becomes a bit frustrating and sadly Super tends to highlight those aspects and cranks them up to 11.

One of the main reasons for my feeling disappointed with Super

[DragonOsman]

Yeah. Goku's bad points are being highlighted too much here. It's making Goku look worse than he is.

Toriyama said Goku has darkness in him. But that darkness is only his love for battle and him being a warrior. He isn't evil. If he was, it'd have been impossible for him to ride Kintou'un or use the Genki Dama. He can do those things because he has no malice. That shouldn't be up for debate.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Yeah. Goku's bad points are being highlighted too much here. It's making Goku look worse than he is.

Toriyama said Goku has darkness in him. But that darkness is only his love for battle and him being a warrior. He isn't evil. If he was, it'd have been impossible for him to ride Kintou'un or use the Genki Dama. He can do those things because he has no malice. That shouldn't be up for debate.

not because you are the one saying which he "don't" when he have if even toryama told which he have malice, which is "his evil" which while is not on "villian level" it's still there and being very disguised enough for him to be able to ride it, that "riding the kintou" is not a real justification when even toryama told which despise having malice inside or evil he still able because in the end "no one is really true pure" if was that then even master kami was not supposed to ride it when he told which he ride it in the past, when he was "less perverted".

Again the point is while goku is not a cell, majimbu or frieza evil dude he also not the "so called hero" which some peoples tend to paint him, he is a warrior and as a warrior he will do "some bad things" time to time if it means him have his "fun"

[SilverGlavenus]

I'd like to describe Goku with 2 words: intention and perspective. So far, Goku does not have any ill intentions towards innocent people and maybe even other bad guys. He, at times, believe in the good in the villains, which, sometimes, combined with his carefree attitude, cost him and others greatly. He is different from Frieza and other villains in that he does not seek destruction and domination like they actively does.

That said, Goku is not hero to everyone either. To the ones fighting for U7 and to those close to him, he jss indeed a hero who saved their lives many times and is now the final hope for U7. But for those in the other universes, Goku is clearly the villain since he (unintentionally) incited the tournament, though the other universes do not know the details. You can't say the other fighters are evil since they are also fighting to protect the things important to them. Hence why I say perspective, Goku is hero to many and yet villain to others as well.

If anything, I think the blame lies in Zeno, who possesses immense power with so little intelligence. IMO, ToP is just a matter of time because Zeno would eventually get bored. Even a villain like Frieza also pointed out how evil Zenou is, so that should give us some thought.

[Mad Pierrot]

[DragonOsman]

Originally Posted by SilverGlavenus

I'd like to describe Goku with 2 words: intention and perspective. So far, Goku does not have any ill intentions towards innocent people and maybe even other bad guys. He, at times, believe in the good in the villains, which, sometimes, combined with his carefree attitude, cost him and others greatly. He is different from Frieza and other villains in that he does not seek destruction and domination like they actively does.

That said, Goku is not hero to everyone either. To the ones fighting for U7 and to those close to him, he jss indeed a hero who saved their lives many times and is now the final hope for U7. But for those in the other universes, Goku is clearly the villain since he (unintentionally) incited the tournament, though the other universes do not know the details. You can't say the other fighters are evil since they are also fighting to protect the things important to them. Hence why I say perspective, Goku is hero to many and yet villain to others as well.

If anything, I think the blame lies in Zeno, who possesses immense power with so little intelligence. IMO, ToP is just a matter of time because Zeno would eventually get bored. Even a villain like Frieza also pointed out how evil Zenou is, so that should give us some thought.

^This.

@Blueknight78: Yes, he is a warrior and has some darkness in him that's hidden too deeply for the Genki Dama or Kintouun to notice, but like you said yourself, he still isn't evil. He's more in a gray area. The main point is that it's hidden that deeply because he's mostly kind hearted and his gray is a very light gray. And we've all already given explanations for his "questionable deeds". As I said, a large part of the reason is that he's too trusting. He trusted Zeno too much as well, despite all of the warnings he got from Whis and Beerus.

And, again, the original promise between Goku and Zeno, that came after the latter watched the tournament between the 6th and 7th universes, was that Zeno would organize a universal tournament the same kind as the Tenkaichi Budoukai. Not one where the losing universes would be erased. Goku just wanted a tournament like the Tenkaichi Budoukai without any strings attached. Is that so hard to understand or believe? Zeno had forgotten about that promise and when he was reminded of it, he decided to hold a tournament between all of the universes with low mortal levels where the losing universes would be erased. At that time, he was already going to erase those universes and Goku's suggestion gave them a chance to save themselves. Goku being a hero there wasn't something that was said after the fact because anyone who was paying attention to what was happening since the promise between Goku and Zeno came to be would know that that's really how it was. Goku is a hero here. But the other universes view him as a villain because they don't know the whole story.

And yeah, Goku is a terrible father and husband. But not intentionally. You can't deny that he does love his family and friends a lot. Remember what made him turn Super Saiyan? Frieza killing Krillin.

[vietthai96]

Spoiler for Episode 127:

Jiren's past will be reveal in this episode, i hope Toei will do their best at this

[Tong]

I only hope El Hermano is real.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Tong

Goku isnt inherently evil, at all, he can ride the Nimbus after all. I dont even know why this is being discussed.

Because people seem to not understand that evil and villain are not the same word.

Originally Posted by Tong

That is how he's been since the original Dragon Ball, that happens to be A MARTIAL ARTS SERIES. There's no better protagonist than Goku for this kind of genre!

This hasn't really been a Martial Arts series since Z began. Z and onward is just power ups/transformations/super attacks.

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

^Exactly. And yes, he's a very lousy father and husband, but he does love his family. He isn't like that by choice.

Being a lousy father is 100% by choice.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

And, again, the original promise between Goku and Zeno, that came after the latter watched the tournament between the 6th and 7th universes, was that Zeno would organize a universal tournament the same kind as the Tenkaichi Budoukai. Not one where the losing universes would be erased. Goku just wanted a tournament like the Tenkaichi Budoukai without any strings attached. Is that so hard to understand or believe? Zeno had forgotten about that promise and when he was reminded of it, he decided to hold a tournament between all of the universes with low mortal levels where the losing universes would be erased. At that time, he was already going to erase those universes and Goku's suggestion gave them a chance to save themselves. Goku being a hero there wasn't something that was said after the fact because anyone who was paying attention to what was happening since the promise between Goku and Zeno came to be would know that that's really how it was. Goku is a hero here. But the other universes view him as a villain because they don't know the whole story.

If Goku hadn't reminded Zeno of the tournament, he may have never been reminded he wanted to erase the Universes either, or he could have put it off for millennia for all we know. I've always seen the existence of Future Trunks' timeline as proof Zeno wasn't going to do anything any time soon (17 years into the future and the Universes were all fine before Black showed up).

The manga offers a different perspective and shows us it's because the two Zenos interacted/played with each other that they got the idea to erase the Universes, which technically makes it Goku's fault for bringing Future Zeno to the present. Of course, it shows us it's also thanks to him the Universes were given a chance to survive.

Anyway, it's obvious Goku didn't have any ill intent in both cases, but his carefreeness and thoughtlessness is highly likely what caused the current situation. In the anime, you can add selfishness. Beerus warned him not to do anything unnecessary, yet he defied him and met with Zeno just because he wanted a good fight.

[DragonOsman]

@GDB: No, being a lousy father and husband is not intentional. He does love his family, he just doesn't know how to show it. He's too dumb to know. How does that make him intentionally a lousy father and husband?

And even if Goku does have some evil in him (which, even if it's there, is very little), it's not enough to make him a villain.

@Kanon: What Zeno forgot was the tournament itself, wasn't it? I don't remember him forgetting that he wanted to erase the "useless" universes. What I remember is Goku reminding him of their promise and him deciding to have a tournament where all of the losing universes are erased. Or if he did forget that he wanted to erase those universes, was Goku the one who reminded him? Or was it the Grand Priest?

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

@Kanon: What Zeno forgot was the tournament itself, wasn't it? I don't remember him forgetting that he wanted to erase the "useless" universes. What I remember is Goku reminding him of their promise and him deciding to have a tournament where all of the losing universes are erased. Or if he did forget that he wanted to erase those universes, was Goku the one who reminded him? Or was it the Grand Priest?

Future Trunk was like 17 years ahead of present timeline and it was still exists and fine, which is telling you Zeno didn't bother to erase the FT timeline for whatever reasons. Also, Gowasu and Zamasu went to 1000 years ahead to observe the lizardmen(?) and U10 at the future is still exists. In other word, Zeno may have the plan to erase the universe but most likely he forgot or don't put much thought and effort to do so until Goku continue to reminding him about ToP which may give Zeno the idea about universe erasure at off-screen.. Now look back to the present timeline...U10 was erased on spot. It didn't make it to 100 years, let's alone 1000 years to the future.

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

And yeah, Goku is a terrible father and husband. But not intentionally.

How can you said it wasn't intentionally when the very Prince of All Saiyan was willingly to put effort to be the great husband and father?

Also:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translatio...ama-interview/

Toriyama: Right. There’s how, basically, Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn’t fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys. So once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him. I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of “poison” that slip in and out of sight among the shadows.

And this was taken from Reddit DB; Toriyama Interview from Saikyō Jump #3, 2014

Vegeta, whose pride had been deeply wounded, sought help from Bulma, and little by little, his ruthless personality changed. Nowadays, you certainly might be able to say that [Vegeta holds his family and wife dear]. On the other hand, Goku might not have a sense of family members like Gohan and Chi-Chi except as one of his companions.

So yeah. Are you still going to play "Goku is dumb" card to justifying his character further after reading this info?

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

@GDB: No, being a lousy father and husband is not intentional. He does love his family, he just doesn't know how to show it. He's too dumb to know. How does that make him intentionally a lousy father and husband?

And even if Goku does have some evil in him (which, even if it's there, is very little), it's not enough to make him a villain.

@Kanon: What Zeno forgot was the tournament itself, wasn't it? I don't remember him forgetting that he wanted to erase the "useless" universes. What I remember is Goku reminding him of their promise and him deciding to have a tournament where all of the losing universes are erased. Or if he did forget that he wanted to erase those universes, was Goku the one who reminded him? Or was it the Grand Priest?

what cannon wanted to means is which, if goku not had remembered zeno about the tournament he could also had forgoten about "erase the universe" since he is also a carefree/simpleton like goku, what make him remember his desire to destroy all universes was that promise since he decided to use the tournament as a way to 'choose the universes to get destroyed" and the good exemple of it was the "black arc", where basically we get a "old trunk" and all the universes gods being killed by zamasu and not because zeno erased the universes, them if goku not had go to zeno remember him about the tournamente everything could be fine by a long time.