[Manga] Naruto Chapter 567 Discussion

[Shiryuu]

Originally Posted by JinchuurikiMaster

Just one page with Sasuke out of 5-10 CHAPTERS, and you still think it's too much... you must really hate Sasuke.
But yes, I didn't really see the point why Sasuke needed a whole colour page to himself just make his appearance again... could have just shown it in the end of the chapter.

You must really love Sasuke then since you just ignored the cohort part.

[Kallen4life]

The number of tails doesn't determine power, IMO. I don't doubt it corresponds to amount of chakra, but that doesn't always equal strength (look at the 7 tails...).

it does for Bijuu (not for ninja)

they ARE chakra

[sayde]

Between the Bijuu's conversation and Kyuubi being moments away from holding hands with Naruto and singing Kumbaya, I was entertained. Can't wait for next weeks chapter now.

[Shining Celebi]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

it does for Bijuu (not for ninja)

they ARE chakra

The Hachibi straight up said that tails have nothing to do with strength in this chapter.

[Kafriel]

He's an idiot.

...and in the same chapter, you have Guy figuring out that the five-tails has...well, five tails, no shit!

Still think he wasted a perfectly good color page for...Sasuke...

He's been away for so long though, it's about time he gets back in the game. Can't say the same about his mook-level companions.

[Kallen4life]

Originally Posted by Shining Celebi

The Hachibi straight up said that tails have nothing to do with strength in this chapter.

you believe everything Tobi says too ?

Kyuubi has shown things power-wise above any of the other Bijuu


like I said tails obviously determine chakra and the bijuu ARE chakra


unless you mean physical lifting strength or something



I'm pretty sure Hachibi is talking about the strength of will, willing to cooperate with the host (thus improving overall ability and winning) etc.

[Casshern]

Bijuu stopped being interesting for me since 1-7 were caught by akatsuki. It even took a sharingan + rinnegan to make them relevant again, otherwise Naruto alone would've wiped the floor with them.

[Kallen4life]

Naruto should've been comatose some time ago, he is still around because Kyuubi decided to show dere-dere side


full Bijuu all wailing on you at once is obviously a force to be reckoned with

[Shining Celebi]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

you believe everything Tobi says too ?

When he has no reason to lie. For example, I believe everything he told Konan before he killed her, because there is no reason to lie to someone you're about to kill.

But I always believe Hachbi, because he is hundreds of years old and not a liar.

Kyuubi has shown things power-wise above any of the other Bijuu

When? I don't remember kyuubi doing anything that other bijuu couldn't do. In fact, I only remember the kyuubi fighting twice in the manga, once with Madara against Hashirama, who beat him, and then in the Konoha attack where the Third and others drove him out of the village and then the Fourth and a half-dead Kushina easily dealt with him.

But nobody said that the kyuubi wasn't the strongest bijuu, he might still be, it's just not because he has nine tails. In fact, the very opposite was suggested. The kyuubi obviously believes he is the strongest, and he's probably proud of his tails, so he put the two together so he could look down on everyone else.

like I said tails obviously determine chakra and the bijuu ARE chakra

You say "obviously" but that is your interpretation. The Hachbi is suggesting otherwise.

While the bijuu are supposed to be chakra (this is stated in the manga), that doesn't explain how it is that they have minds and personalities, how they can bleed, and how it is they can regenerate. If the kyuubi is just chakra, and I take a huge amount of his chakra away, how can he grow back into being bigger kyuubi again? Bijuu must be more than just chakra.

I'm pretty sure Hachibi is talking about the strength of will, willing to cooperate with the host (thus improving overall ability and winning) etc.

The kyuubi tells the hachibi that hachibi is the second strongest because he has eight tails and should be able to beat everyone.

The hachibi says that tails have nothing to do with strength and that attitude is why Shukaku always hated him.

He is pretty clearly talking about actual power, not willpower or cooperation.

[Kallen4life]

In fact, I only remember the kyuubi fighting twice in the manga, once with Madara against Hashirama, who beat him, and then in the Konoha attack where the Third and others drove him out of the village and then the Fourth and a half-dead Kushina easily dealt with him.

we didn't see the VotE-fight and Hashirama and his wife both had bijuu-suppression

sealing also works which is what the Fourth did

but nobody ever beat Kyuubi in a physical fight by raw power or even damaged him for that matter

and that attitude is why Shukaku always hated him.

I got the idea it was because Kyuubi 'bullied' Shukaku for lack of a better term

hachibi is the second strongest because he has eight tails and should be able to beat everyone.

he's facing 6 Bijuu at the same time though

The kyuubi tells the hachibi that hachibi is the second strongest because he has eight tails and should be able to beat everyone.

The hachibi says that tails have nothing to do with strength and that attitude is why Shukaku always hated him.

He is pretty clearly talking about actual power, not willpower or cooperation.

bold - I'm not so sure

Why do you believe Hachibi and not Kyuubi ?


Especially since Kyuubi was called the strongest bijuu in the past multiple times by other people

When?

when KN8 ripped apart Pein's CT .. KN8 is weaker then a released Kyuubi and this is a Kyuubi that had 50% of it's chakra sealed in the Death God (i.e. at half-power) .. meanwhile it took two other powerful attacks (in addition to Hachibi's bijuu ball) to destroy Nagato's CT-core and it was implied that they would've been in trouble/dead if they were crushed by it





anyway, I've stated my point, chakra-distribution by tails makes perfect sense and for the most part for bijuu chakra = power

that's all

[orangejuicetang]

Originally Posted by Shining Celebi

The Hachibi straight up said that tails have nothing to do with strength in this chapter.

If you want to be technical, the Kyubi also pretty much said that strength is determined by the number of tails.

[White Silver King]

If you want to be technical, the Kyubi also pretty much said that strength is determined by the number of tails.

And then the Hachibi refuted it with no reply from the Kyubi. I say agree to disagree on the matter.

[JinchuurikiMaster]

Originally Posted by Shiryuu

You must really love Sasuke then since you just ignored the cohort part.

Well, the same goes to his cohort too, there was only one page showing jugo and suigetsu talking about what to do next... plus I am really looking forward to see Suigetsu when he has collected all the seven ninja swords of the mist. I wonder who is gonna fight him.

And no, I don't love Sasuke, to me he is sometimes just revenge-greedy and careless. But i don't hate him. He definetly isn't my favourite character, but he isn't my least favourite character either. (I don't have a least favourite character anyways)

[Shining Celebi]

I think the chains Tobi used are just a Sage power, the Uzumakis are after all descended from him too.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

we didn't see the VotE-fight and Hashirama and his wife both had bijuu-suppression

sealing also works which is what the Fourth did

but nobody ever beat Kyuubi in a physical fight by raw power or even damaged him for that matter

Nobody has done so with any other bijuu either, except for other bijuu, with the exception of the Third Raikage who is bijuu-level.

That also depends on your definition of damage. Some regular ninjas (and the old Third) forced the kyuubi out of the village, and Gamabunta crushed him when he was summoned on top of him and was able to hold him down.

But also, nobody had a chance to wrestle with the kyuubi so this seems like a strange objection. We could just as well say Ebisu has never been beaten in a physical fight by raw power or even damaged him, but that doesn't mean anything. We've only seen the kyuubi fight once and he was beaten down quickly. We know he lost against Hashirama. We could just as easily say the kyuubi has never won a fight that we know of. Your belief about the kyuubi's power is being colored by your old interpretations, and to be fair, Kishimoto's conception has clearly changed since chapter 1.

I got the idea it was because Kyuubi 'bullied' Shukaku for lack of a better term

That's a possible interpretation, because of the kyuubi thinking that Shukaku is inferior for having only one tail.

he's facing 6 Bijuu at the same time though

Yes, but the kyuubi doesn't think that should matter. (We know he is being unreasonable though, and he knows it.)

But if tails are related to power, then nothing makes sense.

Juubi = 10 tails, but the Juubi is just all the other bijuu put together. So if bijuu tails are all equal, then somehow the bijuu found 35 extra tails and the kyuubi should be one tail away from the power of the Juubi. If all the tails are not equal, then tails don't determine power.

Why do you believe Hachibi and not Kyuubi ?

Because the kyuubi is proud, hateful, and he is being completely irrational (risking his own freedom and maybe life rather than help Naruto right away) and pretending to go to sleep during the world's most important battle.

On the other hand, the hachibi is rational and helpful.

Especially since Kyuubi was called the strongest bijuu in the past multiple times by other people

I never said the kyuubi wasn't the strongest; in fact I said the opposite. He can be strong without it being because he has nine tails. I don't remember anyone actually saying the kyuubi was the strongest, but I believe it based on the kyuubi's arrogance and that he had to be sealed last in the Juubi statue.

when KN8 ripped apart Pein's CT .. KN8 is weaker then a released Kyuubi and this is a Kyuubi that had 50% of it's chakra sealed in the Death God (i.e. at half-power) .. meanwhile it took two other powerful attacks (in addition to Hachibi's bijuu ball) to destroy Nagato's CT-core and it was implied that they would've been in trouble/dead if they were crushed by it

To prevent us making direct comparisons, Kishimoto made sure that the ET Nagato was fully-powered instead of a cripple remote-controlling a corpse. We cannot compare the Chibaku Tenseis.

(Also we don't even know that it would have taken all the attacks to actually destroy it; Itachi was probably just playing it safe. It's hard to imagine that any one of those attacks wouldn't have been enough.)

If you want to be technical, the Kyubi also pretty much said that strength is determined by the number of tails.

I already talked about the kyuubi being a jerk earlier, so I'll mention the different point here.

Kishimoto knows we call considered the tails to be what determined a bijuus power, and he wanted to change this. So how does he do this? He has someone bring it up (the kyuubi) and someone else refute it (the Hachibi.) Kishimoto does this all the time when he wants to retcon something or change what people think.

[Kallen4life]

Nobody has done so with any other bijuu either, except for other bijuu, with the exception of the Third Raikage who is bijuu-level.

That also depends on your definition of damage. Some regular ninjas (and the old Third) forced the kyuubi out of the village, and Gamabunta crushed him when he was summoned on top of him and was able to hold him down.

Amaterasu burned Hachibi quite well

Sasuke cut off a tentacle with chidori-lance

3-rd tied Hachibi, he is bijuu-level, but not a bijuu


Deidara bombed and captured 3-tails, Yugito was able to go full bijuu and got captured by Hidan & Kakuzu .. don't know if Roshi could go full bijuu, but Kisame captured him w/o much trouble


Gama didn't do any damage and only crushed via being summoned above Kyuubi


KN4 tanked Orochimaru's kusanagi w/o a scratch

But if tails are related to power, then nothing makes sense.

Juubi = 10 tails, but the Juubi is just all the other bijuu put together. So if bijuu tails are all equal, then somehow the bijuu found 35 extra tails and the kyuubi should be one tail away from the power of the Juubi. If all the tails are not equal, then tails don't determine power.

they are not "equal", but they do determine power

I doubt Kishi has a precise formula tbh

To prevent us making direct comparisons, Kishimoto made sure that the ET Nagato was fully-powered instead of a cripple remote-controlling a corpse. We cannot compare the Chibaku Tenseis.

the main difference was in casting speed .. Deva Path had to buy some time and charge it, while Nagato just tossed it

they both started ripping out rocks from the ground all the same





I doubt Kishi is gonna change this now and if not tails - then what does determine

[Shining Celebi]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

Amaterasu burned Hachibi quite well

Sasuke cut off a tentacle with chidori-lance

3-rd tied Hachibi, he is bijuu-level, but not a bijuu


Deidara bombed and captured 3-tails, Yugito was able to go full bijuu and got captured by Hidan & Kakuzu .. don't know if Roshi could go full bijuu, but Kisame captured him w/o much trouble


Gama didn't do any damage and only crushed via being summoned above Kyuubi


KN4 tanked Orochimaru's kusanagi w/o a scratch

I had forgotten about Chidori, that is a good point. But the others are unclear - Amaterasu isn't about power or strength, it burns anything it touches no matter what. We didn't see the full battles with the Sanbi, Yugito, and Kisame, so we don't know what happened. But with Hidan we do know he has a special jutsu that doesn't rely on strength, and we know Kisame's special power is absorbing chakra and making himself stronger. It doesn't seem likely that they won with physical power.

As for Kusanagi, it couldn't cut Enma either, so I don't think it was that special. Enma did suggest that it was really good at cutting, but it must not have been too good compared to the many lightning jutsu that have really been shown to cut through anything.

they are not "equal", but they do determine power

I doubt Kishi has a precise formula tbh

If they're not equal, then we don't know anything, it is just our belief.

the main difference was in casting speed .. Deva Path had to buy some time and charge it, while Nagato just tossed it

they both started ripping out rocks from the ground all the same

We don't know the power difference. All Chibaku Tensei we know of rip rocks out of the ground. But we do know that Nagato was at full power when against the 8-tail kyuubi he was a weak cripple about to die remote controlling a zombie.

I doubt Kishi is gonna change this now and if not tails - then what does determine

He just changed it, that's why he brought it up. Although I actually don't remember anyone ever saying it in the manga before - though I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

Probably the bijuu don't have different power levels at all, some are just randomly stronger or weaker than others by some relatively small amount, or have different abilities that are more or less useful in battle against specific enemies, or their bodies are better for fighting.

In other words, I think the bijuu are like everyone else in Naruto, there is no simple way to classify their power levels because there are no power levels. I think kyuubi is the strongest bijuu, just like I think Kakashi and Guy are the strongest Jounin in Konoha.

[White Silver King]

Probably the bijuu don't have different power levels at all, some are just randomly stronger or weaker than others by some relatively small amount, or have different abilities that are more or less useful in battle against specific enemies, or their bodies are better for fighting.

This. The Kyubi's only real ability is his chakra, so it makes sense it'd be enormous. Whereas Ichibi has his sand which provides it's own use as well as huge chakra (though not as overwhelming as the Kyubi). Then you get something like the 7-Tails who can, so far, only spit glitter and bite stuff - and that's in cloak version 2, where the 6 tails can create massive explosions with his bubbles and secrete acid potent enough to melt of Bijuu. It's really a toss-up.

[SeanQ]

Aww the ninetails has feelings...

[Lunarskylar]

im sure teh 9tails will reveal his special jutsu right about now
andd it will turn out that 'that' jutsu was subjugating the nine tails as a friend to unleash its friendship no jutsu power. kushina wanted to try, but she died.

then he'll start spitting out magic flames or something, that naruto will be able to use as well like hachibi's ink xD

[DragoZERO]

Did anyone else have trouble following the action this time around? Felt like we were missing panels and pages.