[Anime] Umineko - Q & A

[maximilianjenus]

I disagree in one point of the ange timeline explanation.

Spoiler for ange:

1998 ange jumps and falls on a safety net, after that she does her trip to rokkenjima. once that is over she will eventually have to die, be old age, accident, etc... it does not matter, after than ange dies she becomes meta ange.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

I disagree in one point of the ange timeline explanation.

Spoiler for ange:

1998 ange jumps and falls on a safety net, after that she does her trip to rokkenjima. once that is over she will eventually have to die, be old age, accident, etc... it does not matter, after than ange dies she becomes meta ange.

Spoiler for Just in case:

Well I didn't include the safety net that kept her from actually dying, but I said that her investigations and her trip to Rokkenjima come after her meeting with Bernkastel, so it's clear she didn't die.

Still I don't know if she has to be actually dead to go to the Metaworld. Of course Meta-Ange has knowledge that surpasses that of normal Ange, yet she is either withholding or missing some critical piece of evidence from the time she did her investigations.
So I'm still not quite sure how far Meta-Anges knowledge reaches. We assume that people go Metaworld after they die, but that hasn't been proven to be absolute truth so far.

[AmyElizzabeth]

What music was playing in the background here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9ouSTy4l-0&feature=sub

[Marion]

Originally Posted by AmyElizzabeth

What music was playing in the background here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9ouSTy4l-0&feature=sub

Thank You for Being Born (生まれてきてくれてありがとう)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQxTxSrsLc4

[AmyElizzabeth]

Kyaa~Thanks!
Oh, can you tell me the scenes where It came up? I love it so much and would like to see whats going on with it.
I know the one with Ange and her classmates, but that's all I know XD

[June 1983]

It plays a lot during sad Beato scenes. For example, I'm pretty sure it played at some point during the Beato vs. Eva-Beato scenes in EP 3 -- aka Beato's eternal heart.

[KanonTheFurniture]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

Spoiler for Just in case:

Still I don't know if she has to be actually dead to go to the Metaworld. Of course Meta-Ange has knowledge that surpasses that of normal Ange, yet she is either withholding or missing some critical piece of evidence from the time she did her investigations.
So I'm still not quite sure how far Meta-Anges knowledge reaches. We assume that people go Metaworld after they die, but that hasn't been proven to be absolute truth so far.

I never liked the theory that anyone in the Meta-World has to be dead to be there. As far as I see it, Battler (and George, Jessica, Maria, Shannon and Kanon in the first tea party) is there because Beatrice wanted him there. Okay, so they happened to be dead in the real world at that point, but is there necessarily a correlation there? If magic exists in the Meta-World then Beato can use her Endless Magic to revive the dead and have them where she wants them. That doesn't mean one must be dead to be in the Meta-World. Similarly, Ange is in the Meta-World because Bernkastel wanted her there. If Ange had to be dead to go there, then Bern wouldn't have stopped her from jumping, would she? She could have just taken her soul there. What's wrong with the idea that she just plucked the living Ange and somehow created a Meta version of her?

I think the moment someone becomes Meta, they become a new version of themselves from the real world 'piece' versions. It just happens that Battler and co. were dead in the real world before the tea party, but it doesn't mean they had to be. Regardless, the moment Ange became Meta-Ange, she was no longer connected to 1998 Ange. If you believe that she became Meta-Ange after the skyscraper scene, then she shouldn't have any of the memories of 1998 Ange (aside from, obviously, the flashbacks, since they happened before the skyscraper incident). If anyone who died went to the Meta-World then I think we'd be seeing not only all our 18 people running around, but multiple versions of them from every arc. Besides, the Meta-World is Purgatory. Most religions hold that when you die, you go to the afterlife, usually some variation of Heaven or Hell. Battler is stuck in Purgatory because he can't move on until he beats Beatrice in this game, IMO. But I don't think Ange had to be dead for Bern to pull her there, she just had to somehow create a Meta version of her which was at that moment severed from 1998 Ange and the two became separate existences. Kind of like

Spoiler for Higurashi spoiler:

Rika, where there is one Rika who continues to relive the experiences of June 1983, and one who resides in the world of the Kakera (the one most people believe is Bern). They were both born from the same Furude Rika in the beginning, but at some point, they became two individual existences.

Also,

Spoiler for just in case:

If this is too much to say here, a mod can erase this part of the post, but I'm hoping it's alright because it applies to things we've mostly already seen in the Anime. Can a VN reader refresh my memory if 1998 Ange ever mentions her meeting with Bernkastel on that skyscraper? As far as I remember, she mentions the safety net when she talks to Okonogi, and she knows she's going on a quest to find the truth of Rokkenjima and about 'Beatrice'...but I don't remember 1998 Ange ever saying in the real world anything about having met with a witch. Assuming I'm right, then that might support my theory and thus 1998 Ange knows nothing about the version of her that's actually fighting the witch and interacting with her brother - all she's focused on is finding the truth, whether or not Eva was involved, and apologizing to Maria. 1998 Ange is basically seeking closure as far as I recall, not setting out to defeat the witch and save Battler, so I think that supports that the two are no longer connected.

[maximilianjenus]

I think she says that, but I am not sure. what ticks me off is this:

If you believe that she became Meta-Ange after the skyscraper scene, then she shouldn't have any of the memories of 1998 Ange

Why ? time does not work that way, nor memories.

[KanonTheFurniture]

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

I think she says that, but I am not sure. what ticks me off is this:

Why ? time does not work that way, nor memories.

Actually, what I said was,

"If you believe that she became Meta-Ange after the skyscraper scene, then she shouldn't have any of the memories of 1998 Ange (aside from, obviously, the flashbacks, since they happened before the skyscraper incident)."

Obviously she'd have all the memories 1998 Ange had before she was about to kill herself. I'm talking about everything that happens to 1998 Ange after meeting with Bern. She should no longer have access to the memories of what the real world Ange does after that point, since they're separate beings after that. It'd be stupid to think that 1998 Ange's experiences after her meeting with Bern would magically beam into Meta-Ange's head. That's what I meant, sorry about the confusion.

Also, @ tastythoughts, this is an Anime thread and this season won't cover EP5, so you should probably delete your post and ask such questions in the EP5 game thread instead.

[maximilianjenus]

yeah, but ange after the skyscraper scene gains those memories, so when she dies later she can go to the emtaworld with all of her memories, I don't see anyother way that could happen but that being ange after jumping.

[KanonTheFurniture]

You're completely missing the point of my post, then. I agree that via your theory (Meta-Ange being Ange after death), she would of course have all the memories 1998 Ange had before she died. My theory was that Meta-Ange is not necessarily 'Ange after she dies', because the assumption that the only people allowed in the Meta-World are those who have died is unfounded. My belief is that Bern took skyscraper Ange and created a Meta-Ange out of her somehow, and so naturally that Meta-Ange would now be a separate entity from the original 1998 Ange (see my Higurashi spoiler). Obviously, by my theory, she wouldn't be able to magically have the experiences 1998 Ange has after the skyscraper scene, because those things happen after she was 'born' and thus Meta-Ange did not share those experiences.

That's my take on it. Of course, by your theory, then Meta-Ange would have all the same memories of 1998 Ange, which would include her journey to Rokkenjima. My theory is exploring a different angle. Of course neither of us are wrong or right (at least until Ryukishi says so), it's just different interpretations of the situation.

Though by your theory, I do have a problem with the idea that Meta-Ange could be Ange having died at any time, including of old age. If Meta-Ange is 'Ange after she died', then she died at age 18 in 1998, period. If 1998 Ange went on to live until old age, then Meta-Ange would have to be that same old hag, wouldn't she? After all it's not like she takes on the form of Battler's memories, or it'd be the 6-year old Ange he knew. If she died of old age and then went to the Meta-World, or even if she died at age 30 or 40, she'd have to look that age in the Meta-World according to what we've seen. I think it'd be pretty silly for an adult Ange who died at age 35 or something to look like 18-year old Ange in the Meta-World, just because age 18 is when she met Bern. I think your theory is only acceptable if something happens to cause Ange's death in 1998, as she is now.

[Beatoriche]

QUESTION!
(I don't know if this has been asked though...)

Spoiler for Ep3:

At the end of ep 3, Beato revealed that she was tricking us all along... so... was Evatrice part of that trick too?

[Jan-Poo]

It was never stated. Maybe she was part of the scheme, maybe she has been tricked and used as well, or maybe she was just an illusion to begin with. There is no way to tell for sure.

[Uchiha Soul]

I guess I am back with my Questions:

1- Are the siblings (Eva, Rudolf and Rosa) live in the same city or not? From what I saw in the series, they seemed like they met at a certain point and then boarded a ship to the island. But did they live near to each other or not?

2- Did Maria always carry her diary with her? I mean did we see it in the previous arcs .. coz I really don’t remember!

[Jan-Poo]

1) I think it is stated somewhere that Rudolf and his family/ies live in Tokyo. You can assume that Rosa also lives there because she goes to Ginza to do shopping.
I can't remember any clue about Hideyoshi and Eva.
Mind however that even if two people live in Tokyo that doesn't mean they live close. Tokyo is a huge city.

2) We have never seen it during the various games, however she's got that purse, who knows, maybe it's there.

[Uchiha Soul]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

1) I think it is stated somewhere that Rudolf and his family/ies live in Tokyo. You can assume that Rosa also lives there because she goes to Ginza to do shopping.
I can't remember any clue about Hideyoshi and Eva.
Mind however that even if two people live in Tokyo that doesn't mean they live close. Tokyo is a huge city.

yeah .. that’s what exactly I was thinking .. they may live in same city but not near to each other. But I think they didn't regularly visit each other, coz I remember Battler asked his cousins before to build a strong friendship even if they can't see each other bcoz of their families' conflicts. Am I right?

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

2) We have never seen it during the various games, however she's got that purse, who knows, maybe it's there.

Ok what about stuffed animals or games .. did they mention anywhere that she interested in these things or carried them with her coz I don’t think they did in the anime.

[maximilianjenus]

I think the diary is a constant factor as long as the diary/grimoire are the same thing, as normally maria uses it to explain the magical circles.

About the joining in a city,IIRc the route to rokkenjima is irst travel by plane to a specific island/town (niijima?), then here they board the boat to rokkenjima.

[KanonTheFurniture]

The Anime also cut the scenes before the boat arrives in Rokkenjima, where the family members (aside from Krauss', obviously) all met at the airport and took a small plane to Niijima. From there, they met Jessica and Kumasawa who came to greet them at the harbor, and then they took the boat from there to Rokkenjima. Based on what we see in the beginning of EP4 (which was also in the Anime at the beginning of episode 19) they probably all took cabs to the airport or something and met there, but as Jan-Poo said, Tokyo is a huge city and that doesn't mean they live close to each other.

I'm guessing based on the airport/boat scenes in the beginning of the VN's though that they probably don't see each other very often, probably just at the annual conference or possibly very rarely once or twice more during the year. I remember at one point Kyrie and Rosa say they should get together more often because as mothers of young daughters they have a lot they could talk about, though. It wouldn't surprise me if they didn't see each other more than once a year, though; I pretty much only see my dad's side of the family (well, his siblings; I see my grandparents every so often) at Christmas, and I know he and his siblings aren't very close, whereas I see my mom's side of the family so often that we may as well all live together in the same house. Kinzo's family doesn't really seem to be a close and happy family, though, so I'm guessing it's more the former.
There's always the telephone to keep in touch, though.

[Jan-Poo]

Ok what about stuffed animals or games .. did they mention anywhere that she interested in these things or carried them with her coz I don’t think they did in the anime.

Apparently Maria brought Sakutaro to Rokkenjima in at least one of the past family meetings, that should be clear even from the anime.
I wouldn't be surprised if she brought other "friends" with her. Actually I am fairly sure she did.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Uchiha Soul

I guess I am back with my Questions:

1- Are the siblings (Eva, Rudolf and Rosa) live in the same city or not? From what I saw in the series, they seemed like they met at a certain point and then boarded a ship to the island. But did they live near to each other or not?

2- Did Maria always carry her diary with her? I mean did we see it in the previous arcs .. coz I really don’t remember!

1- As far as we know they could be living all over the country as they've got the credit to go whereever they want. At least Rosa is living in Tokyo, so much is said, as she keeps mentioning Ginza and other hints that prove her as at least living in the closer Tokyo area.
Regarding Rudolph it is a question of how far they moved away from the Sumaderas, because I think it was mentioned once that they stationed in the Kyoto area...or at least implied.
Eva's home is never really been a point of discussion I think, but I assume she also lives in a similar area as Rosa. Another hint at them being rooted in a similar region is, that they have similar ideas about certain distances and geographical similarities if it comes to the epitaph.
Also I think Hideyoshi is always implied to be the 'funny uncle from Kansai' so I think the family is rather heavily rooted in the Kantou area.

2- I think here we can assume that her diary also held the magic circle information that she used in previous arcs to decipher what the individual circles meant.
As her diary also holds the contract to the Mariage Sorciere I think we can safely say that it was used as both a diary and a grimoire. Another thing to uphold that theory would be the fact (if we look at it from a anti-fantasy stance) that Ange had a rather elaborate idea about the appearance of the magical beings and the working of magic, so I assume all that stuff was also described in Maria's diary.

If that book was indeed her diary there remain 2 questions.
How did it find it's way to Ange and how got it off the island in the first place...yet of course we only know that she had it in a post-Episode 3 world, so who knows, maybe Eva brought it with her.

Ok what about stuffed animals or games .. did they mention anywhere that she interested in these things or carried them with her coz I don’t think they did in the anime.

Well, so far we've only seen her after Sakutarou was ripped in half by her mother, so I think Rosa took very good care in not letting her daughter bring strange toys to the island. Remember how long it took for Maria to get her mother to buy her some candy in Episode 2.