(L) ef - a tale of memories.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by taelrak

I strongly feel that the presentation of her background did more to single-handedly evoke such mass sympathy than a comparable situation would merit - but that's just my opinion.

Well, this is just a thought, but does one need to rationally justify who they feel sympathy for? Do I need to weigh all sides of the issue, carefully consider all the repercusions of each action, balance it out versus what I know of their past issues or trauma, step back and look at how I'd handle it if I were in their shoes, consider how the receiving party should rightfully react if they were seeing things logically as well... and then, in the balance of all these equations, decide the extent of warranted sympathy? Or isn't it good enough to just say "damn, that's painful -- she shouldn't have to go through that pain"?

It seems to me that a large portion of this conversation has been "people really shouldn't feel sorry so for Miyako, because her actions really don't deserve it". But, so what? When I see an injured animal on the side of the road, my first thought isn't "serves it right from jumping in front of traffic". Miyako may be mentally unstable (and certainly would need professional help, if this were real life), but she still didn't deserve Kei's choice words, or being forced to relive her childhood trauma. Until that point, she hadn't done anything wrong; if she had done something wrong, I might have thought "serves her right". But in this case, she got way more than what she deserved (even though Kei didn't do it intentionally). So, despite the fact that her subsequent actions demonstrate her mental instability (and her phone calls seem, certainly from an outside perspective, extremely obsessive-compulsive/"stalkerish"), I still have every right to feel sorry for her and how she got to that point. I can still find myself hoping that things work out for her.

Sympathy is a natural human reaction to witnessing pain and suffering, especially when it was inflicted without provocation. Judging the resulting actions is a seperate issue.

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by Liingo

Could I ask why you believe that it's going to end up with Kei and Hiro. Right now I'm more convinved that it's going to be Miyako/Hiro due to the exact statement that Skyfall said yesterday.

Honestly, what happens in the next episode is probably going to begin the rest of their lives. The way I see it, there are two possible scenarios:

1. Miyako Ending
   Miyako tells Hiro that she left a message and they find out that Kei deleted it. This will likely snowball and other factors will pop up to make Kei look worse than she actually is. Naturally, no one will believe her when she claims it was actually 99 messages instead of one or two. Miyako's issues never resurface because Hiro devotes most of his to her, keep Kei at arm's length from now on.

1. Kei Ending
   Miyako finds out that Hiro stood her up to be with Kei. Queue public yandere episode. Hiro, not being an idiot, turns tail and heads for the hills with Kei on his back. Somehow Kei's interference never comes to light, or if it does, it's after Miyako has already irreparably freaked out Hiro.

[AvatarST]

I...really can't see either of those scenarios happening, at least not in the way you described them.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

I don't think Miyako deserves or even needs absolution, but I also don't think she should be judge guilty for things she hasn't done. End of the day she is a sick person and needs help. Kei and Hiro's actions were the same as chucking a bucket of ice water over a person with the flu. They may not realise the effects of what they did, but if Miyako's actions are abnormal so are theirs.

Also it isn't just Miyako who needs help, Kei and Hiro could do with a good dose of help too, their behaviour in my opinion is not healthy and destructive to ppl around them and to themselves.

Hiro needs to learn to be more considerate to those around him and more importantly to himself. We discussed previously about how I don't consider him mature, well one of the reasons why is his lack of consideration.

Kei needs help period. She suffers from some serious guilt over her sister, but instead of moving past it, she is making the same mistakes as before over the way she deals with her feelings for Hiro, but this time around it is even more messed up.

With this I very much agree. Thanks for reminding me that Hiro is messed up too.

Taelrak, although I agree with you generally, I think you're talking a bit too much and too conceptually. I think you're hindering your argument by encouraging a tl;dr.

Anyway, I made this distinction in my last post; what episode 7 evoked in me was empathy, but no sympathy at all. I understood Miyako's actions and motivations, but in no way do I feel sorry for her.

My point here is this. I think most of us can agree that Miyako was behaving in a self-indulgent manner, which only harmed herself and (potentially) others. (just as a side note, how would you react if something like those 99 messages were directed at you? I definitely think that you would percieve the experience as unpleasant--that's why people called the scene "creepy", after all. I will say here that I would judge anybody who answers "I would be filled with compassion and want to help her" as either a bit desperate or a bit naive about the nature of romantic interactions (desperate).)

Anyways, her self-indulgence is causing harm. However, the sympathy you all feel towards her leads you to...what? Want to indulge her? That's natural, right? Lift her up, say "I'll (Hiro will) always be here for you", right? Make her happy 'cause she's suffered so much pain...

And that would make you a lying fuckwad. Miyamoto said in Samurai Champloo (or maybe he didn't, I forget): “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for a day. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime.”

You're all rooting for Miyako x Hiro now. She doesn't need that. She doesn't need somebody who will always be there for her--and if she did, why should Hiro be the one to carry that burden? Y'know, lots of people wish they had somebody they could trust completely and love and know in their lives; why does Miyako get special treatment? Why does she deserve that? I'd rather she become a person I can respect and relate to.

The thing Miyako needs right now, is to get the fuck over it. I agree with lots of you who think Hiro might be in a position to help her do that. However, helping her get over it does not in any way preclude a relationship with Kei. Not that I really support Kei getting Hiro either at this point.

Also, all this bullshit about being the "colour" in each others lives is hilarious. You know, give me one good example of how their personalities match each other beyond that. 'Cause I don't quite remember Hiro ever saying that Miyako was that colour, just that he was missing it--and Miyako's just some clingy thing that would take anything she could get right now.

Love the show though. Mainly because I trust the director isn't going to let any of the characters get with the lovin' without first resolving these characters' flaws.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

Honestly, what happens in the next episode is probably going to begin the rest of their lives. The way I see it, there are two possible scenarios: [...]

Personally, I don't really think it'll be either of those two options, as they're both basically "staying away from the worse of two evils". My guess would be more along that he'll simply realize which of the two of them he loves, their two fighting over him notwithstanding. I don't think he'll choose the one to spite the other, or that their past actions will necessarily weigh in his choice. And, for what it's worth, assuming it's his choice, I also don't think that either Kei or Miyako will hold a grudge against the other after Hiro makes his decision, no matter how it goes.

I could be totally wrong, of course, but that's just my feeling, anyway.


Edit:

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

(just as a side note, how would you react if something like those 99 messages were directed at you? I definitely think that you would percieve the experience as unpleasant--that's why people called the scene "creepy", after all. I will say here that I would judge anybody who answers "I would be filled with compassion and want to help her" as either a bit desperate or a bit naive about the nature of romantic interactions (desperate).)

Anyways, her self-indulgence is causing harm. However, the sympathy you all feel towards her leads you to...what? Want to indulge her? That's natural, right? Lift her up, say "I'll (Hiro will) always be here for you", right? Make her happy 'cause she's suffered so much pain...

And that would make you a lying fuckwad.

Well, expletive aside (was that really needed?), I don't call the scene "creepy" because of the 99 messages. I call the scene creepy because of the nervous breakdown; the way it's presented made me feel extremely uneasy. And yes, "I would be filled with compassion and want to help her", but that doesn't necessarily mean what you describe in this part of the message. It's not like that's the only way one can action their sympathy. Later on in your message you backtrack a bit from this assertion, so I'm sure you really agree as well, but felt the need to exaggerate/embelish to explain your point.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Also, all this bullshit about being the "colour" in each others lives is hilarious. You know, give me one good example of how their personalities match each other beyond that. 'Cause I don't quite remember Hiro ever saying that Miyako was that colour, just that he was missing it--and Miyako's just some clingy thing that would take anything she could get right now.

You're really trying very explicitly to miss the symbolism in that scene. The art/animation itself told the story about the "missing colour"; it's not something that people just made up because they felt like it. Now, whether the show's symbolism is really "bullshit" or not, you can decide.

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Personally, I don't really think it'll be either of those two options, as they're both basically "staying away from the worse of two evils".

I hope you're right, honestly, because I don't really like either of those scenarios. I also think that ef has thus far proven itself to be smarter than either of those, but we shall see.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

You're really trying very explicitly to miss the symbolism in that scene. The art/animation itself told the story about the "missing colour"; it's not something that people just made up because they felt like it. Now, whether the show's symbolism is really "bullshit" or not, you can decide.

lol. Of course you're right, I'm ignoring the symbolism. I indeed believe that the show will eventually move into a Miya x Hiro scenario. The thing just is, that symbolism isn't worth anything right now.

Hiro has not yet stated that Miyako is the colour missing in his life. This is important, because her being that colour is not just some inherent thing that results from them being fated or something. There is actual significance to Hiro acknowledging Miyako as something that ideal to him. I want to know why, how Miyako inspires him. Just asserting that the symbolism thus far foreshadows that acknowledgement later isn't worth anything.

And on Miyako's side, I'll be waiting for some meaning to be attached to the symbol as well. Right now, Miyako isn't looking for Hiro--she's looking for anyone, and at herself who is alone. Anybody else could provide that colour to her; I want to wait until colour becomes something more specifically situated on Hiro.

Telling me "Miyako and Hiro eventually get together" doesn't translate to "Hiro loves Miyako right now and will think Kei is a bitch for keeping her creepy messages away from him."

[relentlessflame]

Well, yes -- symbolic foreshadowing is exactly what it is. It provides hints, but doesn't connect the dots entirely. Certainly the coming episodes will tell the complete story in word and action and will complete the picture that has, thus far, been largely poetry and symbolism.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Telling me "Miyako and Hiro eventually get together" doesn't translate to "Hiro loves Miyako right now and will think Kei is a bitch for keeping her creepy messages away from him."

Right, and this is why I don't think the latter either. Even if he knew the "full story", I suspect that Hiro would be far more sympathetic to both girls than a lot of people in this thread are...

[AvatarST]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Right, and this is why I don't think the latter either. Even if he knew the "full story", I suspect that Hiro would be far more sympathetic to both girls than a lot of people in this thread are...

That ain't very hard now, is it?

I agree that the symbolism is pretty blatant anyway. There's other things that point to that pairing too, like the MiyaMiya, HiroHiro thing.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

I agree that the symbolism is pretty blatant anyway. There's other things that point to that pairing too, like the MiyaMiya, HiroHiro thing.

Yup, whether it's the "right thing" for either of them or not, it's pretty hard to beat a "fated encounter" in anime. The name thing (and that the fact that were both estranged from their parents) is just icing on the cake.

[taelrak]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Yup, whether it's the "right thing" for either of them or not, it's pretty hard to beat a "fated encounter" in anime. The name thing (and that the fact that were both estranged from their parents) is just icing on the cake.

And this was exactly why I liked the ending of Ichigo 100 so much.

[Sol Falling]

edit: damnit, lost half the post...

So basically, I was saying that Hiro was the one who lost out when Kei deleted the messages. Hiro is a bit of a jackass, being so inconsiderate of other people. Giving a non-commital reply about going to Kei's game, forgetting about it, saying he'd rather stay home when reminded by somebody else...and it's not even like he dislikes Kei. So I think he could have used the shock of actually having to take somebody else seriously (even if it's because they're psycho).

like, he's supposedly a "nice guy" from episode one. But that kind of attention comes at no cost to himself. He's liable to treat a complete stranger in the same manner he treats a friend he's had since childhood. I think that shows that his commitment in any relationships is pretty close to zero.

I can't really fault him for not being interested, if that's really the case with either of the girls. But to demonstrate such flaky behaviour without an ounce of consideration for letting the other person know is ridiculous.

I'm not wishing for Miyako to totally screw up any chances she has with Hiro by going psycho in his presence, but that kind of awakening would really help him be more aware of his surroundings.

[Aoie_Emesai]

Hehehe, this episode actually made interested in what may happen according to which arc the anime is gonna be taking ^^. Though I did feel a big hatred toward Kei now.

[SuperKnuckles]

Originally Posted by taelrak

Yes, we've already established that she wasn't in her right mind. That was never the point or the issue.

You're missing the point. I was making the case that it is directly attributable to her behavior. You are not. I can't make it sound any simpler than that.

Self-justification is never adequate when there are more than one person involved. You're absolutely wrong about the lunatic analogy. If I saw someone on the street acting like a lunatic and I knew exactly why and how he became that way, there is every possibility that I will still find his actions unjustifiable in light of those reasons.

Again, you got my analogy wrong and is not making the right correlation here. By a 'lunatic', you would NOT know ANYTHING about that person's background or condition from their action alone. And I never said it is fully justifiable for EVERYONE. I said it was justifiable FOR HER.

It's called reading. Do it.

Simply having a reason outside her control that contributed to a certain action does not make that action any more justifiable. It is only by applying an objective standard of what is acceptable to most reasonable people in that situation that we have a baseline for comparison. Morality does not function in a relative vacuum where each and every action can be excused so long as the person has some reason for said action that appear to have been outside his or her control.

Again, you're jumping onto some conclusion that what she's doing is wrong. It is not 'wrong' but merely disturbing/disruptive. And by all objective standards, all she is doing is putting on a small tantrum to anyone else's eyes. To her, it is a really big deal. I never said morality was entirely subjective. You're the one following that creed. Not me.

You claim she felt that what she did was justified and right.

I never said it was right. I just said it was justified for HER OWN SELF. Again. READ.

That may be so. That is also not important because most people feel that what they do can be justified by some reason if they try hard enough. I'm not saying we should discount her firm belief shaped by circumstances outside her control, but we shouldn't give it the most weight either.

Who's you to say? Her entire actions are DRIVEN by her own thoughts and paranoia and dislike of staying alone. If people like Hiro can ground her back to reality then what is so wrong about putting weight in their circumstance? I never said it was a fully perfect scenario for Miyako.

Actually, it wasn't an accusation. It was an analogy using the same standard of review that I feel should be applied. The reason I chose such an extreme example--murder--is that in judging the reasons for any action, I don't feel the ultimate result has that much bearing if we're looking at the intrinsic morality itself.

But it's not about some intrinsic morality. All Miyako did was anguish herself and got her mail deleted. A murder is not equatable what so ever unless Miyako loses it altogether. Again, you're putting MURDER into an equatable light as Miyako simply being delusional due to past experience. You're being plenty accusatory. Right from the beginning.

You're also implying that there's no harm being done to the victim of the stalker, which isn't true even empirically. There are numerous psychological and physiological effects on such victims.

And yet Hiro was just mildly annoyed and Kei just was able to steel herself for romance due to Miyako's rivalry. Why do you keep assuming it's all a negative on Miyako's part? Let's face it: You have something personal against her as a character and are being EXTREMELY biased here.

Yes, Hiro didn't even get her messages and he isn't really even a victim, but again, we're not looking at only the result, but rather the wrongness of those actions--especially as we're talking about her state of mind.

WHAT IS SO WRONG ABOUT BEING A BIT PARANOID? Are you understanding what you're even writing? I don't think you do.

Also, there are numerous reasons for an objective standard beyond looking at Miyako herself as an end. Where any 3rd party is involved, or where we're talking about morality in such a way that societal condemnation of the right or wrong is involved, we also need to look at how it affects everyone else. Having such a standard not only creates fair notice to everyone else in society, but also is fair to everyone else who has had childhood problems but weren't as deeply affected by it. If the external environmental circumstances are the same, and yet the results vary so greatly, would it be fair to everyone else who had such problems if Miyako got judged more leniently than them and could get away with more because she was unreasonably affected by such problems, whereas they were only reasonably affected by them? Yes we should feel sympathy for victims of child neglect and possibly excuse their conduct up to a certain point. However, that point, or line if you will, should be determined by the limits of what a reasonably neglected person would do. Miyako steps across that line because most people who were neglected as a child do not engage in behavior such as stalking and would not find such behavior acceptable.

SINCE WHEN DID MIYAKO EVER APPEAL TO BE FORGIVEN OR EXCUSED FOR IT? You're going by some magical loophole that all leads to her being in the wrong no matter what and you're plain out being biased here. Also, people with personal problems can get along with relatively normal people without heavy emotional baggage just fine. What are you going to do? Lock up everyone with an emotional problem and kill them off? That sounds nice, right?

Courtesy? Not sure what that has to do with anything.
In any rate, weren't you arguing that she wasn't aware and that her past was the cause of her actions only? This would undermine some of your points, especially the conclusion about self-justification.

It seems from the letters that even Miyako feels what she is doing is out of bounds. Jumping the gun, YET again.

A random tangent - although, I of course agree that she herself is responsible for much of her behavior, I do not feel such "admissions" are indicative of such awareness. Think of the stages of grief - denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. She goes through each in turn in her messages (she never gets to acceptance of course). Such "admissions" would fall under "bargaining", where she basically is trying to find an excuse or even say anything that would get him to come back to her, and at the same time questioning whether if she did indeed do something wrong that would drive him away (but of course in her irrational state of mind, she can't come up with anything realistic).

Ugh. She WROTE it by her OWN admission. So you're saying that if she's reacting out of her emotional baggage, it's her own fault. And yet when she admits some of it in writing, it is not? You're contradicting yourself.

Sure, I agree the past would probably have a huge bearing on her actions. You might even argue that the abandonment being that catalyst, she never reintegrated with society normally, became antisocial, which left her alone for extended periods of time and created a sense of paranoia and depression, coupled with a subconscious guilt that she was responsible for whatever it was that happened to her, and it just went downhill from there and that she never was given a chance to find herself again because of the cascade. I would argue that such reasoning is wildly speculative and doesn't capture the myriad of other factors that goes into making her what she became.

Dude. Miyako just bumped into a boy and snatched herself a boyfriend. Most people probably can't do that if their lives depended on it. It's not that she's anti-social or totally broken. She just has a heavy personal stake on her current actions and it mostly bothers HER more than anything. She is isn't some f'n monster. Get the hell over it.

Well no, it can affect people adversely even more than that. See the above notes on stalking victims. The fact that in this case, it did not end up being that way isn't relevant to the wrongness and potential harm of her actions really. Attempt of an action makes one morally as culpable for the action as fulfillment of that action if we're looking at state of minds only.

MIYAKO DID NOT STALK AND RAPE AND KILL SOMEONE. HELLO????????????????????

Originally Posted by taelrak

Well, I'd agree with this for war at least for war (and provided there are no political consequences that would be exposed afterwards), but not love . While they're out there duking it out among themselves, poor Hiro is caught in the crossfire!

Again, if Hiro feels so compelled to keep Miyako away, He would have DONE so. You're not making any sense here.

If I were Hiro, I'd dump both of them in a heartbeat (one for trespassing into personal property and deleting private mail, and the other for being a stalker). Of course, it's ironic that Hiro doesn't know either of the events occurred Isn't it great being oblivious?

Well duh. You'd probably put Miyako into the gallows for some mortal sin and banish into hell. This isn't about you pal.

[SuperKnuckles]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

With this I very much agree. Thanks for reminding me that Hiro is messed up too.

I'm loving how some people are equating someone who is a little lost in their lives as being 'messed up'. Hiro is a freakin' mangaka and at least has a future out in front of him. Being able to bring up an old passion back into his life does not mean he's 'messed up'. He has personal issues like everyone else.

My point here is this. I think most of us can agree that Miyako was behaving in a self-indulgent manner, which only harmed herself and (potentially) others. (just as a side note, how would you react if something like those 99 messages were directed at you? I definitely think that you would percieve the experience as unpleasant--that's why people called the scene "creepy", after all. I will say here that I would judge anybody who answers "I would be filled with compassion and want to help her" as either a bit desperate or a bit naive about the nature of romantic interactions (desperate).)

It is neither. Watched that latest episode of Myself Yourself? The protagonist was in a similar 'tons of creepy messages' situation and yet he was able to steel himself and confront it. There is no single right or wrong way to deal with someone who is emotionally perturbed. And I think the most naive thing to do is to walk away and ignore. To confront it, that is where it gets hard. I think you have that analogy backwards. Being blindly optimistic is not the same thing as putting oneself up to help someone.

Anyways, her self-indulgence is causing harm. However, the sympathy you all feel towards her leads you to...what? Want to indulge her? That's natural, right? Lift her up, say "I'll (Hiro will) always be here for you", right? Make her happy 'cause she's suffered so much pain...

Wrong. She will have to make it into something more tangible rather than being led into a superficial relationship, which won't work as long as Kei is on her case. You're jumping the gun there.

You're all rooting for Miyako x Hiro now. She doesn't need that. She doesn't need somebody who will always be there for her--and if she did, why should Hiro be the one to carry that burden? Y'know, lots of people wish they had somebody they could trust completely and love and know in their lives; why does Miyako get special treatment? Why does she deserve that? I'd rather she become a person I can respect and relate to.

The thing is that she is a work in progress. Nobody said she was perfect while going after Hiro. You seem to assume that all the people who even vaguely sympathize with Miyako actually wants to see her carry her delusions. I do not. I'm sure others will agree. "she doesn't need that". That is pure subjectivity.

The thing Miyako needs right now, is to get the fuck over it. I agree with lots of you who think Hiro might be in a position to help her do that. However, helping her get over it does not in any way preclude a relationship with Kei. Not that I really support Kei getting Hiro either at this point.

You're not understanding something here, if Hiro truly is the catalyst to helping Miyako: If she is to get over it, that means she will have to properly follow through what she is trying to achieve through Hiro. If she breaks off, that just means she'll have started back on stage one. Also like someone said before, Kei put herself into a relationship hole before Miyako was ever into the picture. Miyako was perfectly correct in saying that Kei put too much a distance into a relationship with Hiro. And what did Kei do? She made the effort to get closer to Hiro thanks to Miyako's small provocation. That only proved Miyako correct as far as Kei goes.

Also, all this bullshit about being the "colour" in each others lives is hilarious. You know, give me one good example of how their personalities match each other beyond that. 'Cause I don't quite remember Hiro ever saying that Miyako was that colour, just that he was missing it--and Miyako's just some clingy thing that would take anything she could get right now.

It is definitely not about personalities matching. Renji and Chihiro are an odd pair and so are Hiro and Miyako/Kei. The 'colour' that Hiro is missing probably has to do with something of personal passion for life that drove him in childhood that he is lacking now due to becoming jaded.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

I'm loving how some people are equating someone who is a little lost in their lives as being 'messed up'. Hiro is a freakin' mangaka and at least has a future out in front of him. Being able to bring up an old passion back into his life does not mean he's 'messed up'. He has personal issues like everyone else.

Lack of consideration for his own health could be counted as messed up. Lack of consideration for those around him could be counted as messed up. Lack of thought for his future could be counted as messed up.

Generally as children we are guided away from all of the above by our parents. Of course you have the messed up tennis parents who will do the exact opposite encouraging their kids to burn up for that one moment of glory

Messed up or need help psychologically is all about meeting what society counts as a norm. Psychology itself is a very young science and it is pretty messed up, I've known people who went in with issues dealing with things like commitment and end up with a full blown psychotic break down after the counsellor has dug up some very bad memories of the past.

Personally I don't tend to count people who charge head first into something with no consideration for their health, for others, for their future to be normal or healthy. I know we all tend to slip into the mode once in a while, for example you start me watching an anime I will watch it till the end. But it is over within 6 hours or so, so isn't that bad. But then you hear stories of people who game until they drop. Just coz he is getting paid to draw doesn't cover the fact that he is injuring himself with his actions.

BTW I can't believe that a pro mangaka would injure their wrist from over working, actually I think their agents would be rather worried that they are damaging a valuable and difficult to replace resource.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

It is neither. Watched that latest episode of Myself Yourself? The protagonist was in a similar 'tons of creepy messages' situation and yet he was able to steel himself and confront it. There is no single right or wrong way to deal with someone who is emotionally perturbed. And I think the most naive thing to do is to walk away and ignore. To confront it, that is where it gets hard. I think you have that analogy backwards. Being blindly optimistic is not the same thing as putting oneself up to help someone.

I'm not watchin Myself Yourself right now actually. What's it about?

As for your point here, I never said that the proper response was to ignore her. Rather, if Hiro had in fact heard the messages, I would have encouraged him to take steps in helping her reintegrate with society on a social level. Introducing new people to her, helping her make friends--but making it clear that he disapproved and would not accept neurotic or obsessive behaviour around him. On the other hand, Hiro is not in an optimal position to perform those functions.

You're not understanding something here, if Hiro truly is the catalyst to helping Miyako: If she is to get over it, that means she will have to properly follow through what she is trying to achieve through Hiro. If she breaks off, that just means she'll have started back on stage one. Also like someone said before, Kei put herself into a relationship hole before Miyako was ever into the picture. Miyako was perfectly correct in saying that Kei put too much a distance into a relationship with Hiro. And what did Kei do? She made the effort to get closer to Hiro thanks to Miyako's small provocation. That only proved Miyako correct as far as Kei goes.

Hiro isn't the "catalyst" to helping Miyako. What you're implying here is that Miyako's actions are an attempt to break out of her shell. In fact, they are not. Miyako's actions are self-indulgence in the fantasy that she is alone, that she has been abandoned, and that therefore life has no 'colour', whatever that means. Her association of Hiro with that missing 'colour' is unrealistic and indulging her in that fantasy will hurt her more than it will help her. I don't even care about Kei, she's off my radar for now, because although she, as Miyako, is acting in a human manner, she is destined to fail in the context of this particular discussion (or so the show's foreshadowing/symbolism would lead one to believe).

I would assert this: Miyako is not actively trying to improve herself and her life. She is acting on her limited world-view and being controlled by her emotions. The thing that is limiting her here is the world-view, not the emotions. She needs to expand from her idea that "the world is colourless and Hiro is the only thing that is colourful". Of course this expansion could be achieved by letting her get disillusioned of Hiro all on her own, by indulging her and letting her continue to interact with him while believing that. However, a much faster way to 'fix' her is to simply let her know straight off the bat that Hiro isn't that colourful, but that if she sits around being depressed about the world being colourless she is going to starve and rot and die.

You told me that Miyako needs to "properly follow through on what she is trying to achieve through Hiro". What she is "trying to achieve" is create happiness in her limited world-view, and what that effectively involves is making her dependant on Hiro. This is something only maladjusted individuals who like the idea of being 'bound' to other people and unable to act for themselves would desire.

[NoSanninWa]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I'm not watchin Myself Yourself right now actually. What's it about?

Romance, friendship and emotional turmoil. It's rather good and anyone who likes ef would probably like Myself; Yourself. It's really a much simpler show and much easier to understand, but has a similar feel.

Though the "similar situation" wasn't all that similar really. Not at all really. Not least of all because Hiro never even heard the messages.

[Shana]

Finally I managed to see episode 7.

Spoiler for My thoughts:

WTF! Renji and Miyako 'break down' as Chihiro said? That's so... But I couldn't stop laughing at some parts of Miyako's messages in the firsts 50 messages, it was seen as if she would kill Hirono for being late, I wouldn't take the phone if it's like that

[SuperKnuckles]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Lack of consideration for his own health could be counted as messed up. Lack of consideration for those around him could be counted as messed up. Lack of thought for his future could be counted as messed up.

Generally as children we are guided away from all of the above by our parents. Of course you have the messed up tennis parents who will do the exact opposite encouraging their kids to burn up for that one moment of glory

Better that one moment of glory than none I'd say, but that's just me. Also, what Hiro is going through could be partly due to simple adolescence and the indecisiveness that comes with it. But he could have other past issues that hasn't been revealed yet too. Like how he has fallen out of sorts with Kei for example.

Messed up or need help psychologically is all about meeting what society counts as a norm. Psychology itself is a very young science and it is pretty messed up, I've known people who went in with issues dealing with things like commitment and end up with a full blown psychotic break down after the counsellor has dug up some very bad memories of the past.

Well, I don't see Hiro having that kind of baggage just yet. He just seems REALLY burnt out. Actually, I'm just about in the same situation as he is, so I don't know if I can look at it from a distance. But Hiro at least has something going and possible solutions with Kei and Miyako. So he is definitely not hopeless at least.

Personally I don't tend to count people who charge head first into something with no consideration for their health, for others, for their future to be normal or healthy. I know we all tend to slip into the mode once in a while, for example you start me watching an anime I will watch it till the end. But it is over within 6 hours or so, so isn't that bad. But then you hear stories of people who game until they drop. Just coz he is getting paid to draw doesn't cover the fact that he is injuring himself with his actions.

BTW I can't believe that a pro mangaka would injure their wrist from over working, actually I think their agents would be rather worried that they are damaging a valuable and difficult to replace resource.

I guess Hiro really is pushing himself then. I think him still going to school, no matter how halfheartedly, is symbolic of his own indecisiveness.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I'm not watchin Myself Yourself right now actually. What's it about?

Spoiler for Myself; Yourself, episode 8:

Well, one of the romance angles has a girl who is begging for help through mails she sends to her childhood boy friend (as in physical mail in a secret post box), and that was the boiling point for that boy to confront the girl about the problem.

That's one angle anyway. But that story has a lot of 'past problems coming out messily' aspect of ef. That show may have even more of that than ef actually.

As for your point here, I never said that the proper response was to ignore her. Rather, if Hiro had in fact heard the messages, I would have encouraged him to take steps in helping her reintegrate with society on a social level. Introducing new people to her, helping her make friends--but making it clear that he disapproved and would not accept neurotic or obsessive behaviour around him. On the other hand, Hiro is not in an optimal position to perform those functions.

I agree that would be proper, but considering the forced/half-heartedly-received relationship going on, that could be difficult by itself. I mean, I wouldn't just suddenly go up to my girlfriend or even a prospective girlfriend and tell her she needs help. And there is no reason why Hiro would or should know about her problems even with such an outcry of help. A lot of people would probably ignore that. Like you say, I don't think Hiro is up to it. Not from what we've seen so far.

Hiro isn't the "catalyst" to helping Miyako. What you're implying here is that Miyako's actions are an attempt to break out of her shell. In fact, they are not. Miyako's actions are self-indulgence in the fantasy that she is alone, that she has been abandoned, and that therefore life has no 'colour', whatever that means. Her association of Hiro with that missing 'colour' is unrealistic and indulging her in that fantasy will hurt her more than it will help her. I don't even care about Kei, she's off my radar for now, because although she, as Miyako, is acting in a human manner, she is destined to fail in the context of this particular discussion (or so the show's foreshadowing/symbolism would lead one to believe).

I wouldn't be so quick on Kei since she hasn't had any real fallout with Hiro yet and it really seems 50/50 at the moment.

As for Miyako, I half agree. Sure it's self fulfillment or that is what's aimed to be. But at the very least, she is trying to convince herself that she is no longer alone. I think that is an important detail since she obviously cornered herself into thinking that she was. But her interaction with Hiro is a bit of a turn for her. Breaking out of her shell or not, at least she's trying to change something about herself and her own views (note: TRY. I'm not saying she did a 180-turn on her world view here). Whether that is to positive or negative effect, that's not entirely certain.

I would assert this: Miyako is not actively trying to improve herself and her life. She is acting on her limited world-view and being controlled by her emotions. The thing that is limiting her here is the world-view, not the emotions. She needs to expand from her idea that "the world is colourless and Hiro is the only thing that is colourful". Of course this expansion could be achieved by letting her get disillusioned of Hiro all on her own, by indulging her and letting her continue to interact with him while believing that. However, a much faster way to 'fix' her is to simply let her know straight off the bat that Hiro isn't that colourful, but that if she sits around being depressed about the world being colourless she is going to starve and rot and die.

She isn't improving herself by our means. Our rational, 3rd person means of what it seems natural to improving oneself in that situation. She is basically fumbling through, but at least she IS doing something. Or at least trying to.

And I don't think it's as simple as letting her realize her situation in a do or die manner. So far, there hasn't been anything to wake her up to that realization and I think that is the most important part, because delusions are not intentional if you're so stuck in it you truly believe in that. Miyako seems to be pretty stuck in her delusion. That is why I'm saying Hiro is the catalyst. Even if he shows that he's not without color, that could wake her up since that goes against her delusion.

You told me that Miyako needs to "properly follow through on what she is trying to achieve through Hiro". What she is "trying to achieve" is create happiness in her limited world-view, and what that effectively involves is making her dependant on Hiro. This is something only maladjusted individuals who like the idea of being 'bound' to other people and unable to act for themselves would desire.

If she is to realize she isn't alone anymore, then she'd have to come to realize that other people live their own lives independent of her. And she'd have to come to accept it. By following through, I don't mean that within her delusions. It just seems apparent to me that she KNOWS she is unhappy being so paranoid like that. I mean look at the 99 phone calls by themselves. It's basically self-torture above anything (especially now it's deleted). She is basically attacking herself and possibly trying to get that rude awakening to snap her out of her situation. I don't think she knows it consciously, but rather she's doing it in subconscious. Her delusions can actually help her out of it the more it hurts her in the process.