(L) Kumo Desu ga, Nani ka? [WN]

[Rageth]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

That's because ninja-kun already knew "Wakaba Hiiro" by sight. The recognition obstruction worked on the pope. I've no idea if it would work through a monitor (what Potimas would see if Shiro appeared next to Ariel right now)

It worked on Shun, when looking at Shiro through what's-his-name's memories, so I don't see why it wouldn't work on Potimas.

That said, Potimas would still recognize "This is Shiro", but he just wouldn't think about her characteristics and such.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by Rageth

It worked on Shun, when looking at Shiro through what's-his-name's memories, so I don't see why it wouldn't work on Potimas.

Effectively, Shiro's ability hid it from Hyrinth's memory, so Shun couldn't see it in the memory jewel thingy. For Potimas, if he saw Shiro directly, I'm sure her ability would affect him. Whether it would still have an effect through the monitors that Potimas uses (which presumably use magecraft) is another matter. Shiro developed that skill to effectively hack people's brains so it might not affect magecraft.

If Shiro could hack the "vision" of magecraft devices (that presumably all the Glorias use) then I'm sure she could have a lot of fun. It would be hilarious if a skill she developed because she's a loner who doesn't like to be stared at turned to make the battle a lot easier.

That said, Potimas would still recognize "This is Shiro", but he just wouldn't think about her characteristics and such.

Yup.


Random thought: Shiro sent a tiny little monitoring spider clone along with Ariel. I wonder if Potimas's CO2 "poison" is affecting it at all...

[kari-no-sugata II]

I'm not sure if Potimas ever had any realistic chance of killing a god, no matter what he did. Certainly he is overestimating his ideas and his technology but his approach is quite logical. I get a sense that he's been "shut in" for far too long and gotten used to getting his way for far too long and can't make decent judgements any more in some areas (maybe corrupted by Ruler skill too?).

I wonder how much he's gotten to actually see of gods? Back in his youth, I'm guessing all the other dragon gods were around. I wonder how much he actually knows about gods and how much is unproven theory. I get the feeling that it's more like his knowledge is incomplete rather than simply "wrong".

I wonder if he knows why the magecraft jamming doesn't affect the inside the body. (I would guess it is a side-effect of the soul though there's other possibilities). I'm sure he would have tried to make the jamming work inside the body too. That he hasn't been able to (it seems) and doesn't appear to be particularly concerned about this (it seems), indicates to me that he is missing things that he probably shouldn't - it's unreasonable to expect him to know everything but for anything he knows that he doesn't understand, he should investigate it hard.

So anyway... with Potimas picking up a lot of loser flags lately, I'm guessing that he's going to die to Ariel with little/no help from Shiro. In which case, does this mean the "last battle" will be Shiro vs Kuro...? (I hope so)

[Breimn]

I hope Ariel manages to get a good bite of that robot. She should be able to fuel herself if she manages to eat an arm or two.

[EvilSociopath323]

It would be close to impossible for Ariel to win the fight normally, that is without Shiro's help. Even without the regeneration the robot has the bigger numbers. But I have a bad feeling about the robot being controlled remotely. I kinda get the feeling that the place that controls the robot is the pyramid - normally the safest place since it's far away from Ariel and surrounded by a ton of solidly strong units. In the end the pyramid gets destroyed by Shiro, the robot stops regenerating, Ariel destroys the robot thinking she was the one defeating it... or such a thought crossed my mind.

Also I think that the magic jamming barrier is incomplete for plot purposes. It gives Ariel a handicap, on one glance making her weaker and in a dangerous position. If the barrier was complete she'd just die right off the bat, we can't have that now, can we? Also whenever there would be a barrier there would also most likely be a counter-measure. And it's likely that magic inside the body could be reestablished first since it's closest to the caster + the body could probably serve as a natural shield from the jamming.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by Breimn

I hope Ariel manages to get a good bite of that robot. She should be able to fuel herself if she manages to eat an arm or two.

Hmm. You think if she gets a part in her mouth she can use Gluttony on it? I guess that could work... but currently she can't heal herself and has to take major damage just to be able to hit it.

[Amuris]

Yeah, there's plenty of possible explanations for why the field doesn't affect people internally. It could be something like alpha radiation, which is easily blocked by skin(why we have it in the first place). The container of the soul might also be something like skin here. Could also just be an issue of range or a difference in complexity between ranged magecraft on bodily magecraft...actually, before Shiro underwent apotheosis, didn't the affect of magecraft jamming only make it just past her skin? So, she could strengthen her muscles but her skin would still tear from hitting things?

For gluttony, doesn't that assume that omega's energy store is hosted in it's body? If it's being remote controlled, it might make more sense to channel the energy with the instructions. Basically, like a puppet on strings, leaving little energy there to risk losing from an attack.

Also, I think we keep forgetting again that Shiro is abnormal. Even D thinks some of what she can do with energy is strange. If you consider that, it would be odd for Potimas to assume that, not only is there another god present, but it's one of those ultra rare gods that can freely suck up energy. Evil's kinda right about the comments. People get too caught up cheering for their side that they start bashing the opposition even when they are right/make sense. Kinda makes you want to switch sides.

[Breimn]

A question. What if Kumoko has her timy clone get eaten by Ariel? It should be enough to get energy to heal her injuries .

Wait. Maybe the spider destroys the machine blocking magic?

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by Breimn

A question. What if Kumoko has her timy clone get eaten by Ariel? It should be enough to get energy to heal her injuries .

Wait. Maybe the spider destroys the machine blocking magic?

Ariel can't use healing skills at the moment. Her problem isn't a lack of energy.

I'm not sure Shiro's clone would be able to do much. It's a minimum size one for a start. That being said, on the assumption that Shiro could fully channel her abilities through a clone, maybe she could do various things. However, I'm not expecting Shiro to intervene directly, if she does intervene at all. Maybe Shiro will directly attack the power source of the facility at some point, which would be likely to help Ariel, depending on how it is structured.

[kari-no-sugata II]

I was thinking about why the magecraft jamming field might not work inside the body. As I've said before, maybe it's related to the soul. For example, an automatic defence or natural defence. If souls had no natural defence at all it would be rather odd - it would make it far too simple to kill/whatever someone.

When "Kumoko" attacked the underground facility, external skills (including magic) were completely shut down. Internal skills were a bit of a mixed bag - some worked and some didn't. The ones that seemed to be purely mental or deeply tied to the soul seemed least affected, though this is somewhat subjective.

Anyway, the idea that souls might have an automatic/natural defence led me to wonder about why the System limits are where they are. Maybe once a soul gets too powerful the System can't (safely) manipulate it any more? So I had the thought that maybe "Divinity Area Expansion LV10" is the maximum safe limit of the System. But... I don't think this is the case. Doesn't feel right.

I then had a better idea: Ruler skills require the core of the soul to be changed. Which means, the core of the soul has to be big enough in the first place. When Oka-chan sensei forcibly made Yuugo/Natsume use "Presentation" to give up his skills, Shiro commented that it was rather pointless as the raw underlying potential is still left in the soul. Ruler skills should be the same, more or less, except they're more significant skills in the first place. What about something beyond a Ruler skill? If having a large undeveloped region of the soul makes it easier to learn skills, what if you have a HUGE undeveloped region, particularly in the core. What could you put in there? How about a skill for "magecraft"? A skill that directly takes the power of the soul and manipulates reality itself. That should certainly be bigger than a Ruler skill, right? When "Kumoko" became a god, her soul was fully merged and put back together, and all the System hooks were removed - but one thing was added:
《D carefully made 『Basic Course of God』 is installed》

Doesn't quite sound like a skill, but when Taboo was installed, "Kumoko" learned how to absorb MA Energy. So as part of the "Basic Course of God", knowledge about magecraft could be included and directly added to the soul. It wouldn't be a skill with any System support, but simply knowledge - a true mental skill. That would explain how Shiro got up to speed as a god so quickly. As "Kumoko", she had been practising raw magic to the extent that she could do magic even without the specific skill but the System should still have been supporting her a lot - ie it shouldn't have been equivalent to pure magecraft, though it should be related. Shiro could also use things like Clairvoyance / Thousand Mile Eye as a god very quickly, even though they're not magic. It feels like a combination of a memory of using the System skill version and having knowledge of magecraft in general allowed her to do this.

So in short, I think "Divinity Area Expansion LV10" is a requirement for Apotheosis because that is the minimum size the core of the soul to support the installation of the "magecraft skill", which is effectively a superset of every stand alone skill within the System.

[K2Grey]

I think the stat cap represents the maximum degree to which a soul can be expanded (shown by Ariel being close to the stat cap, and her soul being in danger of collapse due to over-expansion). And that apotheosis is a process analogous to say, nuclear chain reaction with Divinity Area Expansion LV10 being equivalent to critical mass.

I took a look at Oshiete D-sensei! and the way D praises Shiro doesn't seem to fit well with her being granted a magecraft skill. Also the fact that Ariel can use status magecraft while being cut off from the System, and how Kumoko could put together her anti-anti-magic protection so quickly in the underground ruins. In Ariel's case, perhaps the System additions to her soul could assist with the status magecraft, but there is no System ability resembling anti-anti-magic.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by K2Grey

I think the stat cap represents the maximum degree to which a soul can be expanded (shown by Ariel being close to the stat cap, and her soul being in danger of collapse due to over-expansion). And that apotheosis is a process analogous to say, nuclear chain reaction with Divinity Area Expansion LV10 being equivalent to critical mass.

What would this chain reaction do/achieve...?

btw, "critical mass" isn't a fixed value - it's a calculation based on a number of factors.

I took a look at Oshiete D-sensei! and the way D praises Shiro doesn't seem to fit well with her being granted a magecraft skill. Also the fact that Ariel can use status magecraft while being cut off from the System, and how Kumoko could put together her anti-anti-magic protection so quickly in the underground ruins. In Ariel's case, perhaps the System additions to her soul could assist with the status magecraft, but there is no System ability resembling anti-anti-magic.

I had look at the raw of the Oshiete D-sensei and that paragraph is actually quite annoying. The translation is also quite a bit off actually. I'd translate it something like this:

For the 10 fundamentals, an experienced magecraft user can do things like skipping a stage and advance them simultaneously. Kumo performs the steps from Activation to Conjuration almost as a set, and the steps from Injection to Invocation are also considerably shortened. She herself thinks that it's due to Magic Extremity, and that certainly was the case at first, but after having gone through apotheosis she is now invoking magecraft purely by her own power at a speed greater or equal to when she had the System assistance. That's nothing surprising for a god, but for Kumo who didn't know the first thing about magecraft to be doing such a thing is abnormal.

When the original is this:

Among the ten fundamentals, an experienced magician could process them simultaneously. Kumo performs Activation to Conjunction as a set, and she shortens the injection to invocation. The spider itself thinks that Magic Extremity contributes to the Magic. It was true at first, but the time she spent exercising the majutsu of the same class speed of the system for auxiliary and equivalent to invoke it. Even Gods would be surprised to see a spider performing magic like it’s a habit.

What D is saying is rather confusing - in some cases I'm not quite sure what bits refer to "Kumoko" era and what bits refer to "Shiro" era. When D says "Kumo", she doesn't necessarily mean "Kumoko" era but it's hard to be certain. What "Kumo" is doing is "not surprising for a god", but is D referring to "Kumoko" or Shiro? If D is referring to Shiro then that implies that Shiro taught herself magecraft but if it's referring to "Kumoko" then D is basically saying that Kumoko's magic skills were godly

Anyway: my point wasn't that "only gods can use magecraft" since this is clearly not the case. The System is basically an encyclopaedia of magecraft and can edit souls to grant specific magecraft skills. Some skills require no System assistance at all (it seems). Therefore, it's perfectly possible for normal mortals to use magecraft (even if unconsciously). My theory is more that "to be recognised as a god you need a minimum skill in pure magecraft as well as a minimum amount of power/energy" and that "as part of the System's apotheosis process, that minimum amount of skill in magecraft is installed". Certainly Ariel learnt to do magecraft herself, but only 3 simple skills, and even that seemed to have been difficult for Ariel.

btw, when Kumoko fought the robots before her apotheosis, she copied the ability to protect against the magecraft jamming from the robots - she did not invent it. I'm pretty sure that until she became a god, Shiro never invented new magecraft - it's more that she used it in extreme ways.

Shiro mentally thanked D for the "Basic Course of God". Which almost certainly means that it was of significant practical benefit to Shiro. As soon as she left the System, Shiro had to get used to doing everything manually. She certainly is abnormal but she still got up to speed with magecraft very quickly, almost instantly. How reasonable is it for her to do that when she didn't even know about magecraft previously? It would make a lot more sense if "Basic Course of God" included a tutorial on magecraft and essentially implanted an appropriate amount of knowledge.

A god without magecraft is pretty useless - just a clump of power with no way to use it. So it makes much more sense that "a god is a being with a minimum amount of power/energy and a minimum amount of skill with magecraft". Lose either one and you have a "god" that's basically useless.

[kari-no-sugata II]

481 is out in raw - elf village battle 8, Shiro's POV. Reading now...

[Breimn]

One (more like many)problem solved, now time to think about the next one.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Hmm. That was quite cool. Shiro goes serious mode! But Shiro-chan... surely you've developed more weapons than that though?

Spoiler for what Shiro does:

Well, she showed her Evil Eye of Gluttony previously. What she does this time is the full version - using her clones she covers the entire elf village with a dome-like web of eyes (clones), each armed with the Evil Eye of Gluttony. All the energy from all the sea urchins and the triangular pyramid gets sucked up.

So, quite an easy victory.

Unfortunately, Kuro totally saw all this so Shiro is worried that she's revealed too much...

Seeing the reaction from the elf side is going to be interesting

[Breimn]

Lol, spent hundreds or thousands of years harvesting energy only to bhave it all stolen

[Hokoga]

^ OK that's pretty funny.

I would like to see Potimas's reaction to this, especially if that facility he's at get's effected and the magecraft jamming barrier goes down, causing Ariel to be assisted by the system again.

[roffle]

lol Potimas got rekt. gg ez

[EvilSociopath323]

I laughed at the star blazers reference. Didn't quite get the second reference though. That fight was quickly over. Now I really want to see the others perspective on how they viewed that technique Shiro used. Ominous as f*ck.

[Okashira]

We totally need Kuro's perspective to see how he is sweating bullets at the unnatural skills that Shiro developed