[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Anything to add?

Only the immediately obvious: Kanon did it by cutting the chain and killing them then, or the chain was never actually set and was cut to match the story. This requires Genji to be involved, however, unless Kanon was able to commit the murders more quickly than we're shown (but then we implicate Kumasawa, a further problem with the "did not commit murder" reds later, depending on how we define the commission of murder).

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Renall

Only the immediately obvious: Kanon did it by cutting the chain and killing them then, or the chain was never actually set and was cut to match the story. This requires Genji to be involved, however, unless Kanon was able to commit the murders more quickly than we're shown (but then we implicate Kumasawa, a further problem with the "did not commit murder" reds later, depending on how we define the commission of murder).

There's also my variation of that, where the servants conspired to set up the closed room illusion for some reason but weren't involved in the murders at all.

This does mean that anyone who left Natsuhi and Battler's sight during the afternoon could be the murderer, but my criteria for liking solutions tends to minimize complexity and maximize the number of potential culprits.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

This does mean that anyone who left Natsuhi and Battler's sight during the afternoon could be the murderer, but my criteria for liking solutions tends to minimize complexity and maximize the number of potential culprits.

When the number of potential culprits increases, shouldn't the complexity actually increase?

[Xeles]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Mind you, that raises the question of why Kanon and Kumasawa, when visiting the storehouse to get the cutter, do not notice that body or bodies that should be there are missing, but they suspiciously do not mention bodies in this scene at all, nor react to their presence in any kind of expected fashion -- like maybe, flinching, turning away and getting back to the task at hand.

But from a narrative point of view, that would be a really sneaky way to misdirect us too, wouldn't it? You read through this scene, fast, excited - the murderer is trapped! Time is of the essence! How will he get away?

Sorry to jump in on the discussion. It might be impossible to say whether or not duplicate key exists for the new padlock Genji placed on the rose garden storehouse (after handing it to Natsuhi), but the background shown when Kumasawa and Kanon retrieved the wire-cutters might be throw off. There seem to be a few wire-cutters located in basement.

• In EP1, Kanon retrieves one from storehouse. It only takes him about five minutes to return to Eva and Hideyoshi's guestroom.
• In EP4, Battler retrieves one from the boiler room. (He also found a hatchet along with it. Apparently, the wire-cutter wouldn't be sufficient enough to cut through the shackle of a padlock for the storehouse or perhaps he couldn't find a bolt-cutter.)
• In EP5, the existence of an underground storeroom is revealed while Erika and the parents searched the mansion for Kinzo.

Other than that, there is a clear distinction between the storehouse and storeroom in the translation, but I have little knowledge of the original text, so I'll leave that alone.


There was also something regarding Kinzo's ring a few pages back (in the event that Krauss was aware of it):

After Maria pulled out the envelope from Beatrice at the dinner, Nanjo discreetly let Natsuhi and Krauss know that he may have noticed that Kinzo's ring had been absent for some time.

Nanjo: "I-I'm sure I had the odd feeling that something was missing from Kinzo's finger when we were playing chess...."
(Natushi and Krauss become flustered.)
Natsuhi: "Doctor Nanjo! Don't say something so careless just because of vague memory!"

It's not clear if he meant that prior to Kinzo's death or during the time he last examined his corpse. So in addition to the letter's contents, Krauss may have assigned the servants with the one-winged eagle to the guest house, suspecting they might have some knowledge of ring's whereabouts prior to and after Kinzo's death.

And both Eva's and Hideyoshi's alibi after the conference time are a little odd. Natsuhi, Shannon, and Kumasawa let everyone know during dinner that there were guest rooms prepared in the main mansion so they wouldn't have to go through the storm back to the guest house. Eva acknowledged this, and despite that, both she and Hideyoshi returned to the guest house after midnight, even though they said they were tired. Genji greeted them there with a towel, but Kanon should have been the one on duty during that time, and she never mentioned him at all. Even Shannon expected that the adults would remain in the mansion.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by ijriims

When the number of potential culprits increases, shouldn't the complexity actually increase?

I don't mean something like a large number of accomplices working together, but that that there are a large number of suspects. If you were going to write a mystery with several different closed rooms, wouldn't you design it so that solving one of the closed rooms would only narrow down the suspects a little bit? It wouldn't be much of a mystery if you could identify the culprit after solving only one of the puzzles.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Xeles

Other than that, there is a clear distinction between the storehouse and storeroom in the translation, but I have little knowledge of the original text, so I'll leave that alone.

In Ep1, both the storehouse in the garden and the location where Kanon retreives the wire cutter are referred to as "倉庫", just checked that.

The background image for the "fetch wire cutter" scene is warehous_i1e commented as "庭園　倉庫内部　５枚目　天井"
The background image for the scene where the bodies are discovered uses warehous_i1a, commented as "庭園　倉庫内部　１枚目" and the scene also uses several warehous_o<id> and warehous_i<id> backgrounds which are clearly the same series.

Both are "庭園　倉庫内部" -- warehouse/storehouse in the rose garden.

I'd say that in this particular case, we have no grounds to say they aren't meant to be one and the same location -- though the fact that in the second case, the background is supposed to show the ceiling may be a hint.

Originally Posted by Xeles

So in addition to the letter's contents, Krauss may have assigned the servants with the one-winged eagle to the guest house, suspecting they might have some knowledge of ring's whereabouts prior to and after Kinzo's death.

Interesting, I didn't think of that, while that would make the narration lie considerably less.

[Oliver]

More on the storehouse, chained room and Ep1, a minor idea...

Kumasawa is not present when the bodies are discovered. She wouldn't know where they are, so if one is missing, she wouldn't notice when coming with Kanon for the wire cutter -- she definitely wouldn't be counting the ones she can see. However, if a body was missing, why didn't Kanon notice? Because he already knew one or more would be missing is my best guess. There are several ways this could happen, the most obvious one being that he knew they aren't supposed to be dead.

It does not necessarily follow that the missing one is Shannon's, by the way, though it is a strong possibility as always.

[Renall]

Kumasawa had assuredly heard though, hadn't she? Perhaps having not seen it she would overlook one, but still, how would the culprits know Kumasawa would be sent along with Kanon and not someone who happened to have been at the shed earlier? Many of the groupings when this stuff happens are ordered by Natsuhi. It would make sense for Natsuhi to be "handling" people with respect to Kinzo, but not with respect to the murders. So either the culprit doesn't need anybody's help with this, or someone was able to influence Natsuhi's selections, or it was a coincidence.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Renall

So either the culprit doesn't need anybody's help with this, or someone was able to influence Natsuhi's selections, or it was a coincidence.

Actually, as it has been pointed out above, there is more than one cutter in the mansion, and Genji never told Kanon which one to take, so deciding to go to the storehouse in particular could be his way of confirming this suspicion.

It remains a question how did he get the key then though.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Actually, as it has been pointed out above, there is more than one cutter in the mansion, and Genji never told Kanon which one to take, so deciding to go to the storehouse in particular could be his way of confirming this suspicion.

It remains a question how did he get the key then though.

Yes, but how can we know which one Kanon will go for, and if he goes for the storehouse cutters, what does he see and how do we account for this if we're responsible?

Pretend for a second you're the killer, and you're one of the First Twilight "victims." Pick any one you want, it won't matter. You must address the following problems:

• You must make sure no one ever goes back to check on your corpse once you've left the shed, or if they do, you must make sure they cannot tell that you specifically are still alive.
• You must avoid ever being seen by anyone who does not already know you are still alive (that is, any accomplices) and who knows the killings are real (i.e. if Genji thinks the FT was faked, you can appear, until he realizes it was real).
• You must be able to cause the survivors to behave in a predictable enough fashion that you can continue to kill them and continue to avoid notice, without being seen by them.
• You must be able to physically murder people quickly and efficiently, without failures and with minimal struggle and noise.

Most of these require an accomplice among the survivors to even be feasible. I think it's clear that someone suspected this at some point in ep1. Imagine Kanon isn't the killer; realizing that someone among the survivors is passing info to the killer or that the killer is observing the survivors through some means, what better way to get the drop on them than to proclaim someone dead who really isn't? The problem is that if there's only one killer, and that killer didn't attack Kanon, he or she would realize this right away... but the handler among the survivors might not, especially if the killer and handler have no means of communication. This could cause the handler to bungle.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Renall

Most of these require an accomplice among the survivors to even be feasible. I think it's clear that someone suspected this at some point in ep1. Imagine Kanon isn't the killer; realizing that someone among the survivors is passing info to the killer or that the killer is observing the survivors through some means, what better way to get the drop on them than to proclaim someone dead who really isn't?

Indeed, this is exactly what I'm thinking at this point as the best interpretation.

You see, assuming that Kanon is the killer raises a narrative oddity, which is why I'm investigating other options. Throughout the chain room scenes and the following scenes up until his demise, the following narratively and factually unusual things happen:

• Kanon tries to 'sense', 'someone', 'through the door'. Twice. Senses nobody both times. I don't think any other characters ever try something of the sort. Generally, people who believe they can do that distinguish between people they know very well and everyone else.
• Kanon is described experiencing a sense of urgency that is not rationally explained, that is worded like he's trying to prevent something from happening and is worried it happened already. But is it the Eva+Hideyoshi murder? He isn't described as having any emotional attachment to Eva or Hideyoshi - in fact, he dislikes Eva for bullying Shannon. If the murderer is inside the chained room, the moment both he and Genji leave, the murderer can always leave as well, whether they want a closed room or not, and running won't help. If the murderer is not inside the room, then both the expected inhabitants are definitely already dead, which is especially true if Kanon trusts in his 'sense', so why run. Why exactly is he in such a hurry? Could it be that he wants to confirm who is dead inside?
• When Kinzo stinks up the house for the last time, Kanon is looking for the source of the smell halfheartedly, following Kumasawa. If he's in on the body burning plan, it's expected as he knows what must be the source of the smell really and isn't anxious to be the one that finds it, certainly not alone with no witnesses. But the moment he and Kumasawa hear the sound of the boiler room door closing, he starts running and outruns Kumasawa despite continuous orders from Genji previously. This only makes sense if he wants to confront the killer, as at this moment, the positions of all the people who are thought to be alive are well defined -- they have no way to move in that direction faster than he and Kumasawa did without him knowing. The following scene is essentially a magic scene, so not very trustworthy, but pathos oozes out to support this.
• When Kanon's death is announced, Nanjo has a shirt 'sprayed by a violent spurt of blood'. Which is pretty much impossible medically unless he killed Kanon himself, since if it did spurt in this fashion from a chest wound because of a heart injury, Kanon would be dead and cooling down in under two minutes, well before he was brought to the servant room. Jessica is thought to have been right next to Kanon while the doctor was at it, so Nanjo finishing Kanon is pretty much out.

Which suggests he probably really isn't dead, even though he's very likely wounded, and the plan to be proclaimed dead is formulated on the spur of the moment with Jessica and Nanjo.

P.S. Just abruptly stumbled on the hidden joke translation inside the WH patch.

`".........Rigor mortis has set in across the entire body...`@`......Probably, `/
!d1200`at least six hours have passed since death...`@` As far as I can tell by looking at the damaged area,`!d500` there is a high probability that they were murdered by half-naked demon girls...`@/
`......No, I must watch what I say...!`@` I'm a fat old man, and girls are outside my area of expertise...!"`¥

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by Xeles

[*]In EP5, the existence of an underground storeroom is revealed while Erika and the parents searched the mansion for Kinzo.

Other than that, there is a clear distinction between the storehouse and storeroom in the translation, but I have little knowledge of the original text, so I'll leave that alone.

Interestingly enough, in that screenshot you posted there were only two rooms mentioned in the basement. And in the anime, when Shannon went to get the spider web in EP2, we see two doors.

Spoiler for image:

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9978/storeroom.png

Now, forgive me for using the anime as a reliable source, but if we can trust it, then I think the storeroom would have to be right next to the boiler room.

Though this might not even matter if he got the chain cutter from the rose garden storehouse.

[Judoh]

As a side note the wire cutters in episode 1 are desribed as being fairly big since he found it hanging on the wall. I'd imagine it's something like a rose trimmer where you have to use two hands to operate it. It's described as looking like a pair of pliers, but it's big enough that it's probably not something you'd hold in one hand.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Judoh

As a side note the wire cutters in episode 1 are desribed as being fairly big since he found it hanging on the wall. I'd imagine it's something like a rose trimmer where you have to use two hands to operate it. It's described as looking like a pair of pliers, but it's big enough that it's probably not something you'd hold in one hand.

Well, even if the anime is not a reliable source, it shows them pretty clearly and it's a device which requires two hands to operate and is half a meter long, big pipe wrench kind of scale.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Judoh

As a side note the wire cutters in episode 1 are desribed as being fairly big since he found it hanging on the wall. I'd imagine it's something like a rose trimmer where you have to use two hands to operate it. It's described as looking like a pair of pliers, but it's big enough that it's probably not something you'd hold in one hand.

It would probably be equivalent to a pair of bolt cutters, especially if it's the same pair of cutters Battler uses in ep4 to cut his way into the shed. So yes, we're talking about a fairly large tool. The main thing that brings up is that nobody is going to be concealing one of those.

[TkMacintosh]

One thing strikes me as odd about Kanon being the killer...and that was when Kanon dropped the wheelbarrow full of stuff that was going to the Garden shed...How could he have moved all those bodies from the first Twilight in the first game from the dining hall/room to the Garden Shed when he was struggling with the Wheelbarrow in the first place >.>

I understand that Kanon may not have been the only killer, but I just wanted to get that off my chest in all honesty >.>

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by TkMacintosh

One thing strikes me as odd about Kanon being the killer...and that was when Kanon dropped the wheelbarrow full of stuff that was going to the Garden shed...How could he have moved all those bodies from the first Twilight in the first game from the dining hall/room to the Garden Shed when he was struggling with the Wheelbarrow in the first place >.>

In particular in Ep1, if first twilight victims have been put to sleep for whatever reason other than the intent to murder them, and hidden in the shed to pretend someone else killed them in the dining room and made off with their bodies, (which murder later happens unexpectedly and is done by a third party once they're asleep), Kanon would not actually have to move them himself, and all other murders except Kanon's own seem to have been done using firearms.

But then even Maria could do all of it except murder Kanon, and the only thing that saves her from being immediately suspected is being under almost constant observation.

There's one thing I noticed a bit later though. If we assume that Kanon does not die, Jessica's has to be 'the handler', even if Kanon is not the murderer:

As Jessica was with him until the final moments, which Battler's narration says, she has to know if he is really alive or not. But once the third letter mysteriously appears, she immediately sides with Natsuhi and accuses Kumasawa of murdering Kanon even though Natsuhi is not actually seeking to implicate anyone in anything specific herself.

If she knows Kanon is alive, even if she is thinking Kumasawa killed anyone else or is 'the handler', there's no need to say anything right at this moment -- Natsuhi's not doubting, and Jessica would be accusing someone of something she knows didn't happen.

This action only makes sense if she honestly thinks Kanon is dead, or if she is deliberately out to split the group and continue doing so.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by TkMacintosh

One thing strikes me as odd about Kanon being the killer...and that was when Kanon dropped the wheelbarrow full of stuff that was going to the Garden shed...How could he have moved all those bodies from the first Twilight in the first game from the dining hall/room to the Garden Shed when he was struggling with the Wheelbarrow in the first place >.>

I understand that Kanon may not have been the only killer, but I just wanted to get that off my chest in all honesty >.>

It seems unlikely most of the younger suspects could move adult bodies, but as has been noted, it's possible they moved themselves before being killed. The prospect of a "fake murder" makes this even more plausible, assuming they were active participants that is.

Of course, we can also just consider the possibility that Kanon was faking it. He conspicuously has difficulty when someone is actually around to help him. That doesn't prove anything, but it's much easier to appear less capable of something than it is to appear more capable. For example, Nanjo is clearly a good liar, but he appears to be worse at it than he really is, but it's hard to look like a better liar than one is. Likewise, it's easier to fake being weak than it is to pretend to be strong.

[Oliver]

Abstract thought:

Has anyone tried to treat 07151129 as the epitaph key word, i.e. apply the letter sacrifice mechanic to it and see if they can get anywhere?

[Judoh]

It's 8 numbers not 11 or 13. Also it's not an anagram so that number probably won't get you anywhere in solving the epitaph. It really is only a bank account number.