Old vs New anime

[hobbes_fan]

When I think anime I think cel animation, it's part of its charm for me that pretty much all ended late 90's. Older anime was a labor of love for animators and the better mecha shows eg Macross still have fluid animation to date. They still hold up ok in comparison. I mean yes they reuse scenes Gundam Wing was pretty bad but not to the point of ridiculousness like Gundam Seed. Digital makes it easier to produce anime quickly but it loses the feel. In terms of character design, each older anime had a unique style, eg Kawamori's works had a distinct style, Tomino's had a distinct style despite being in the same genre. I look at modern mecha series say the characters/mecha of Rahxephon(Bones), Gunparade March (JC STAFF) , FMP (Gonzo/Kyoto animation), Stellvia (XEBEC) and say Gravion (Gonzo), there's not a lot of stylistic difference. Gravion and FMP are still fun series but it seems character designs were designed by the same person (although Mizuki Tachibana defies all laws of physics). I'm not sure how exactly they do it but it's just something I notice with newer stuff

It doesn't happen all the time but it does happen IMO. Studio Ghibli's stuff is an example (but I hear that the next release will be all cel)

Some general observations on plot

I think plot wise the comedy genre has improved in particular, satires lke Excel Saga, Puni Puni Poemy are better at working it in to their plot. Fumoffu is the funniest thing I've seen in ages since You're under arrest.

The adventure genre has pretty much stayed steady. Older adventure shows were a little bit lighter and humorous like Slayers, the trend now is for more darker shows like FMA. It's a matter of preference

The mecha genre I think has gotten stagnant, a lot of rip offs of NGE and reworking of classics like Reideen and Mazinkaiser. I'm waiting for the next big thing in the mecha genre which happens every 10-15 years. (60's-70's Super robot eg Mazinger, Getter Robot, in the 80's Real Robot: Macross and Gundam, 90's: NGE, 00's: ?).

Hopefully a new Macross TV series will ease my pain (unless its a Macross II bastardization)

These are my observations only though

[Alexandrite]

There's not a lot I can add, because many people that have posted in this thread already have said all I can, and more. But what the heck, I'll toss in my opinion anyway, because a few events have happened on forums outside of AnimeSuki and in real life that have inspired me to post in the thread.

It's a very simple statement, essentially. New, shiny productions do not automatically equate good anime. Just because something new has better art, animation, or effects does not mean that it is the epitome of quality, and I believe that extends to pretty much any visual media. It's not that older anime has a certain charm to it, or that it's classic and therefore more worthy of one's time, it's that a lot of old anime seems to have more plot and character development than some newer shows, and for why that may be is up to speculation, though I agree that it may be because anime is so much easier to create now with the aid of computers, in a kind of "just because you can doesn't mean you should" ideology.

Though in fairness, you could say that a lot of old anime seems better because the ones that had made themselves famous have had quite a while to make that name for themselves. I think that it doesn't matter whether the anime is old or new; there will undoubtedly be gems and garbage produced regardless of the era. Ultimately, you'll just have to find what you like and stick with it. Personally, I'll take a nice mix of old and new. I started my love of anime with SDF Macross oh so many years ago and continue through the years with various series.

I just wish it was easier to find some of the older series I'm curious about. Many have been licensed, but due to their age it becomes harder to find them, regardless of whether they are fansubbed or on stateside dvd. Phoo.

[xxanimefan4_ever]

Originally Posted by Alexandrite

I just wish it was easier to find some of the older series I'm curious about. Many have been licensed, but due to their age it becomes harder to find them, regardless of whether they are fansubbed or on stateside dvd. Phoo.

Yeah it's so frustrating, I mean Dash! Kappei isn't subbed in enlgish and it's like one of the best comedy/sports anime (plus a very weird love triangle) and if this anime isn't subbed in english (it is in spanish/italian and polish possibly) who knows what other gems from older anime era has never reached anime fans whether it be via fansubbing or licensing.

Originally Posted by Radd

Digital colouring enables artists to choose from any colours they could possibly want, unfortunately a good number of animation colourits seem to have very poor colour sense and often pick the brightest, most eye gouging colours they can. Better recording and encoding techniques means we see these horribly oversaturated colours in all their painful glory.

Lol I totally agree with that, I've seen like pictures or seen anime where the colors are like disgustingly...

[petran79]

I'll try another approach to tackle the issue:


1.There are old cartoons I avoided as a kid and would avoid them even today

2.There are old cartoons I liked as a kid but would not watch them anymore as an adult.

3.There are old cartoons I liked as a kid and would watch them with the same enjoyment as an adult (if not more)

4.There are old cartoons I missed as a kid, watched them as an adult and found them mediocre.

5.There are old cartoons I missed as a kid, watched as an adult and found them as some of the best ever produced (eg Nippon Animation, TMS, Studio Pierrot, Toei classics or western cartoons such as Spartakus and the Sun beneath the Sea)


the first 4 sentences are subject to the personal taste of every viewer, so someones crap can be anothers masterpiece and can be applied even to the series of today. But for something new to be regarded as a classic and to have quality too some years need to pass.

the 5th is more objective since I read only praises for those series by viewers of all ages in many countries that watched or bothered to watch them.

One difference with the newer titles is that in oldies you can see the influences of Western animation and cinema. Eg Castle of Cagliostro used scenes from the 50's French animated movie "Le Roi et l'oisseau". Matsumoto's character design was inspired by the French movie "Marianne of my youth". Cuore:From the Apennines to the Andes was influenced by the movie "Bicycle Thieves". In that sense the older series are priceless because they open the eyes of the viewer. The animation is exceptionate in the above series. Anyone who labels the animation as mediocre should watch the 1968 movie "Horus:Prince of the Sun"

I like also the newer series because some of them (the cream of the crop unfortunately) have something new to offer, eg those by Y.Abe or movies such as Mind Game by Studio 4C etc. So I do not dismiss the new series. It is just that they're more intellectual while the older series had more feeling and lyricism and I liked them much more. As for action flicks, mecha etc, they're not my type so probably the newer series are better in that genre. But I also liked the older mecha series much more (eg Votoms, Patlabor, Orguss)

So someone who watches just the new series is unlikely to appreciate the older series and will just regard anime as something isolated from the rest of the world.

It is not a matter of "old vs new" but about learning a little bit of history.

It is not a coincidence that shows like Sazae-san and Doraemon are still so popular in Japan

As for Western cartoons (adult cartoons excluded) I do not change the classics and the series of the 70s and 80s with anything of todays crap

[solomon]

I do admit that as an American fan in his early 20s, my viewing of old anime is limited. I'm rather knowledgable ABOUT old anime from reading history books and the internet (my Japanese teacher plotzed when she heard I actually knew what Manga Nihon Mukashi Banashi was, though I had never seen it).

After Gundam, it seems like that was the true rise of the otaku show, or probably better put "niche" show even though it seemed gradual. Back in the 80s, it seems like the only niche shows on tv really were Mech Sci Fi thingys (aside from Dirty Pair, which I enjoy). But then of course you have the OVA's I guess.

Aside from that, every thing seemed spawned from manga, ie much less originally created work. THis can be good or bad dependent on how you look at it, but I value Japanese Creators comming up with more original works now.

Trying to think, I found some of the original lupin the 3rd anime (green jacket) and thought that was cool. I adore Maison Ikkoku and enjoy Urusei Yatsura.

As for old vs. new in terms of quality, I can't say. Like I said, I've seen precious few shows made pre eva. Also, It's somewhat snobbish of me, but I'm a bit disenchaneted now with shows that push themselves to mainly an otaku audience nowadays. So I'm more interested in seeing things that producers want to make for general japanese audiences. (Noitamina, certain stuff on NHK, WOWOW, etc.)

I do know that overall, there has been a rise in visual quality (in certain aspects) Digital Coloring and Lighting helps plus shows are plus certain shows have much better animation being produced for tv then ever before (although people you have to understand, high frame rate DOESNT just equal good animation).

Design, meh. Japanese still have us outclassed in mechanical, prop, costume and set design just because we don't give a hoot. Character design, well of course it depends on the production (and more specifically, who is adapting whose designs) but I'm hesistent to say many shows have good character design, because quite frankly I don't think sterotypical big eyes/small mouth/pointy nose is a good design, not one to be used in 90% of shows anyways. (But that's another post all together)

However, I do agree that by skimming of the top that anime has become much more broad based in genre and storytelling styles coupled with sophisticated images, even with the huge concentration of otaku shows. (every once in a while, they can overlap)

[Terrestrial Dream]

I probably prefer old animes compare to new one, I mean the 90's freaking owned imo. GaoGaiGar, the whole Yusha series, Tekkaman Blade, Nadesico, Cyber Formula, Slam Dunk (best shouen ever!), Tylor, G Gundam, Gundam X, Turn A Gundam, Gundam Wing EW, 8th MS Team, Macross Plus, Slayers, and so much more. Besides show like RahXehpon and Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, I really haven't felt same as the shows from the 90's recently. And I really noticed too many slice of life (the only one that I liked was Welcome to NHK), harem (really don't like this genre), and the damn bitter sweet ending, today it's so freaking rare for a happy ending.

[WanderingKnight]

Eh, it's a matter of taste. There's anime galore nowadays, much more than there was ten or twenty years ago, and it's much more accessible, so the crap is easier to point out. Plus, nostalgia always makes people conservative and elitist--the past time was always better, mostly because one was younger (get off my lawn!)

PS: Oh, and a noticeable advantage of the anime boom was the diversification of genres--it's easy to point out that there are a lot of loli moeblob and harem series, but there are also pretty original series from genres that have never seen the light of the day in the past decades. Think about it

[Kyomi]

Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream

and the damn bitter sweet ending, today it's so freaking rare for a happy ending.

Well what is a happy ending?
I like the newer type specifically for the reason that's you're not guaranteed a "perfect Ending" (One where the group of good guys all get together and have a barbecue dancing around a campfire after saving the world from the big bad evil mutant..or along those lines)
Anyhow the bittersweet makes me enjoy the happy moments even better.

I can't comment about the older stuff here since I'm actually pretty weak in the vintage area, but to me it seemed like there was too many corny endings.

On the other hand having a "Conclusive Ending" seems to be a problem. Having that feeling of a rushed ending can be pretty annoying specially after watching a great show for a while and being adapted to it's pace.
I think what we need is more time for the conclusion or aftermath of a storyline. Having solved the problems if fine, but what happens after?

I know some of these ending are purely a product of marketing, like in the case of where a manga goes beyond the anime so they try to get people to switch over to the manga by leaving them dry at the end of a series. However I'll agree that some of them (endings) are plain stupid. Then again the first 25 episodes will always be more important than the last 5 minutes of the 26th one, so I can let it slide.


-And to answer the question I'm all for the "newer" type. It's what I've been raised in after all. But most likely in a few years I'll look back on todays anime and compare them to the future ones and comment on how the old days we're the bests.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Plus, nostalgia always makes people conservative and elitist--the past time was always better

Yeah, something like that. =)

[aohige]

Originally Posted by xxanimefan4_ever

who knows what other gems from older anime era has never reached anime fans whether it be via fansubbing or licensing.

Laughing Salesman, Gu-Gu-Ganmo, Urashiman, Pataliro... the list will go on forever if we started listing it.

Perception of Old will clearly be better than New in mediums, and it has more to do than just "nostalgia".
Quite simply, the years suggested by "now" and current is much, much narrower than "old".
When people say current or Now, they usually mean in the past 5~6 years, maybe up to 10.
However, "old" days can cover easily two to three decades worth of titles.
Furthermore, among those long range of era, memorable "good titles" stick to your mind more than mediocre ones, and because of the sheer volume of the decades, it gives the impression that there were more great titles back in the "old days".
If you think logically, it's unfair to compare smaller spectrum of years with much higher ones, elevated with elimination of titles by memory.

I've been an anime geek since the early 80s, and I do feel there were tons of anime back then that were better than many of the titles now.
But there were also tons of crap. People tend to forget crap, as they lose interest and stop watching.

Bottom line: comparing 2000~2008 with 1970~1990s is illogical and unfair.

[aldw]

Oldest series I've seen were Pa-Man, Doremon and bits of Galaxy Express 999, but the types of series I like best generally have a connected plot structure such as Macross or Crest of the Stars, much like how old American series such as GI Joe used to do but not so much anymore.

[X10A_Freedom]

The 1990s indeed saw a good mix and change in the art style. The Slayers and You're Under Arrest of around 1996 vintage used completely retro art style reminicent of the 80s while anime like Saint Tail in 1995 saw the start of more "recent" drawing techniques. By 1999, the style had evolved into Cardcaptor Sakura and ToHeart (amazing art for its day).

Old anime cannot simply compete with the new ones in terms of frames per second and resolution. However, there's a fair share of new anime where people have really been slacking off in the art department. Shana II has some serious art inconsistencies which isn't really excusable in this era of technology.

Although it takes time to get used to, I can generally switch between old and new animation. Future Boy Conan in the 70s is a true adventure classic which I loved and still do. The art in Conan is horrendous by today's standards with the lack of colours and detail. It's like a watered down Ghibli art, being directed by Hayao Miyazaki before Ghibli even existed!

The Slayers, I love as well as the original Dragonball series. There's also kids stuff like Doraemon and Anpanman. I also like the traditional "prettyness" of characters. Miyuki Kobayakawa in the 1994 You're Under Arrest OVAs is well pretty!

The more recent era when I started paying more attention to anime (since I was older and had the ability to do so) also has its fair of good titles in my head. Gundam Seed (questionably) has one of the best storylines I've ever seen while School Rumble is excellent comedy. However, I do have a tingling feeling without too much solid evidence that the grown-up female characters seem to look less mature than they did in the past which is a shame sometimes.

To conclude, both the "old" and "new" eras have seen some excellent anime as well as some seriously atrocious titles. Aesthetically, the new era wins over the old due to technology but when it comes to the actual storyline and plot, the most important factor for me, I don't really think one era is better than the other.

[siber222000]

if its comparing old version to newer version, i personally liked ah my goddess old one than new one lol. *except special episode of fighting wings* old one actually made me cry =_=... but new one? well, it's pretty good, but it's just lovey dovey imo lol.

[petran79]

Originally Posted by aohige

I've been an anime geek since the early 80s, and I do feel there were tons of anime back then that were better than many of the titles now.
But there were also tons of crap. People tend to forget crap, as they lose interest and stop watching.

Bottom line: comparing 2000~2008 with 1970~1990s is illogical and unfair.

Overall television was better those days in quality ( I dont mean picture quality). I do not speak out of nostalgia. Probably because the broadcasters (especially the public funded ones) were selective on what to show and werent so commercialised, did we have such fond memories. And they imported only the best animated series from Japan and other countries as well. That is probably why I remember only a few crappy series. Also without the Internet, DVDs, piracy etc all those series looked innovative and exciting (some of them still are). Now you have so many channels and do not know what to watch anymore. Exceptions are very few. There is an overall saturation inconceivable 15-20 years ago. I hope they'll learn from this and recede with the crappy shows.

But it really sounds funny when in 20 years the kids of today will say: remember that 100+ episode series I downloaded from the internet with a crappy 10 Mbds speed? A classic! As for series of the 60s, 70s and 80s it will be even more difficult to keep track.

I'd have lost touch with cartoons by then (I find it even difficult to watch the cartoons of today) so I'll leave it for others to judge by then. I agree, thats the fate of cartoons

[Pyroman]

One "older" anime came to mind when I was reading this all..
Excel Saga!

EDIT: grr, It posted before I could finish, anways..

That is pure gold, I can't think of an old Anime better then that!
(Comedy, love triangle, action, sentai, end of world, teen, slice-of-life, every episode is a spoof of a genre, the last episode is a spoof of the "Adult" genre.)

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

I love tons of old anime. However most of my Favorite animes are newer ones.

If I was going to watch an action anime it would probably be an old anime because those tend to be the more enjoyable on the action side. However for dramatic or storyline wise for anime I'd probably watch newer ones because I find that they tend to be better in those areas than the older ones.

[Casshern]

There's something to be said about older anime, which is that they've already passed through the filtering process that elliminates all the ephimeral, inconsequential commercialised shows and leaves the classics. Alot of fans will argue that it's all about the story and the "old animation style" should be ignored. For me however, the "old style" has its own nostalgic beauty that can't be replicated in something modern. It's like loving old music, classic cars etc.

I still enjoy watching Hime-chan no Ribbon, Sailor Moon, Captain Harloc...I wish I could find Saber Riders too.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by petran79

Overall television was better those days in quality ( I dont mean picture quality). I do not speak out of nostalgia. Probably because the broadcasters (especially the public funded ones) were selective on what to show and werent so commercialised, did we have such fond memories. And they imported only the best animated series from Japan and other countries as well.

I think that this thread is more about comparing the quality of newer and older anime without regard to when they were brought over to North America or other regions. But in the past, even the best anime got (heavily) censored when they aired on television, and there was also awful stuff like "Warriors of the Wind" and "Clash of the Bionoids". And if we're setting the discriminating line of older and newer works at 2000, then there'd still be works like "Cardcaptors" and so on.

By the way, just about all anime is commercialized - regardless of whether it airs in North America or Japan or how old it is. There are a few works of love that serve as exceptions, but these have always been few and far in between (I believe that Sazae-san is the prime example of this).

Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki

I love tons of old anime. However most of my Favorite animes are newer ones.

If I was going to watch an action anime it would probably be an old anime because those tend to be the more enjoyable on the action side. However for dramatic or storyline wise for anime I'd probably watch newer ones because I find that they tend to be better in those areas than the older ones.

I tend to agree. I've watch a lot of anime, both old and new, but most of my favorite shows date are relatively recent. There is a difference in storytelling and dialogue that tends to strongly favor the best of the modern shows. Having said that, it's not all one-sided: the better movies (NOT TV shows) hold up very well visually against newer works, and I find that older music has much more flavour than the new stuff.

Originally Posted by neuromancer

There's something to be said about older anime, which is that they've already passed through the filtering process that elliminates all the ephimeral, inconsequential commercialised shows and leaves the classics.

Precisely; often when people talk about older shows, they mean just the ones that were good. And usually in the argument that those works are better than the large quantities of mediocre shows that are currently airing. It should be a no-brainer that a select list like that would hold up in such circumstances.

[petran79]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I think that this thread is more about comparing the quality of newer and older anime without regard to when they were brought over to North America or other regions. But in the past, even the best anime got (heavily) censored when they aired on television, and there was also awful stuff like "Warriors of the Wind" and "Clash of the Bionoids". And if we're setting the discriminating line of older and newer works at 2000, then there'd still be works like "Cardcaptors" and so on.

By the way, just about all anime is commercialized - regardless of whether it airs in North America or Japan or how old it is. There are a few works of love that serve as exceptions, but these have always been few and far in between (I believe that Sazae-san is the prime example of this).

the censorship and political correctness in cartoons are a different issue that is still rampant today. Who said that even anime isnt censored in Japan (eg Koi Kaze)?

Though they were commercial I wouldnt compare the popularity and commercialism of Dragon Ball or One Piece that were broadcasted on private networks, with that of forgotten and neglected series like Nils Holgersson that were broadcasted on state-owned TV stations. These stations had all the comfort to avoid broadcasting very commercial series.

I meant rather that whereas now you have the choice to watch anything you like and filter the mediocre series out, 20 years ago you couldnt, so the TV broadcasters needed to have quality shows. I am talking rather about the mid 70s till the early 90s, before Pokemon and Dragonball

Many older viewers of my age and above who do not care about anime anymore have really fond memories of the classic series that were broadcasted many years ago. I do not know about the anime broadcasts in the States , but in Europe series like Mysterious Cities of Gold, most of the WMT titles, some by TMS, Toei etc were really popular and regarding TV screenings it is not something you would see often today. They were truly some of the best and thanks to those many think that the older titles were better. Regarding those series only I certainly agree and I think that they're unsurpassed even today, because anime took a completely different direction. That is the main reason you cant compare old and new.

It is like comparing a classic Looney Tunes cartoon for the cinema, with toned down version for TV.

There are of course many good and unsurpassed series today too

But today is even worse. For every 1 good series you have 100 fanservice series, 100 h-game based movies etc

Back then the ratio was lower only because production costs were more expensive.

[WanderingKnight]

Originally Posted by petran79

Stuff

Eh, you're talking about licensed series. The western world never saw the amount of anime we're seeing today. Never. The "filtering" was done by what was popular in Japan, and what could be a hit around these parts (shounen fighting stuff/mecha for the most part). You didn't see the bad things because licensors wouldn't bring them, not because they weren't made.

[petran79]

you talk as if all Japanese back then had time to watch countless animated series

i dont say bad series werent made. I just meant the ratio good series/bad series today is even worse when so many series are produced. Just because we watch the cream of the crop does not mean that anime got suddenly better overall. Same goes for western cartoons. so "more" does not mean "better".

It is just that television back then (with or without anime) was much more considerate of the younger viewers showing good cartoons from all around the world. Just because something is in flashy CGI and crisp but emotionless design, does not mean it is better.

But I admitt I never was a mecha,action or shounen fan, though I enjoyed some older mecha series and Locke the Superman (uncensored) was my first anime