2008-04-04, 12:12 | Link #781 | |
Paparazzi
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 41
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At least evolutionary biology is by definition study of evolution, on a conceptual level pretty much introduced by The Origin of Species. That's why I find it a bit odd that there are so few within the scientific community to even consider whether the concept of evolution through random event may not be viable enough premise that other options need no consideration what so ever. There are of course some "scientist" that have tried to prove creationism scientifically but that's naturally a dead end if you take biblical story of creation literally. |
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2008-04-04, 12:19 | Link #782 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Age: 34
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i am a Muslim and i agree with 2h-dragon that somethings science can't explain, but it is explained in the Qura'an.
i am not against any other religion, but i only see Islam as the perfect religion and i didn't find any mistake in the holy book nor heard someone says there is a flaw in it. |
2008-04-04, 12:37 | Link #783 | |
Gregory House
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Dismissing evolution based on the "low probability of occurrence of random DNA changes" not only shows an ignorance of natural selection, but also an ignorance of probabilistic theory and an ignorance of the overwhelming evidence evolution has in its favor. Repeat after me, science is not a democracy. Please, do watch the vid I linked to a couple of posts ago. It's a long speech, but you might find some insight as to why is there such a strong consensus on the validity of evolution theory among scientists.
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2008-04-04, 14:10 | Link #785 | |
Gregory House
IT Support
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Posing questions is the core of science. But they need to be relevant questions.
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2008-04-04, 14:34 | Link #786 | |
Paparazzi
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 41
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What if the data supporting evolution would be interpreted differently without evolutionary preconception? What if the data conflicting with theory of evolution would be relevant if other premise is taken? God only knows (somehow I found this idiom strangely suitable ) how much conflicting data there is. These are questions that some are posing within the scientific community but as a result they're pretty much immediately accused of scientific heresy. Which strangely resembles religious approach to things. Are these really, really questions that can be considered totally irrelevant. What if that's exactly my issue with this whole thing. What if she had balls, wouldn't that make her a he? I think there are two scientifically very irrelevant "what if" questions in this post. I leave it to you to decide which ones. |
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2008-04-04, 15:37 | Link #787 |
OH NO
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New York
Age: 32
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I am an atheist and everyone in school hates me for being one and say things like I'm going to burn in hell and someone actually tried to save me once but then lost hope in me. when religion is being talked in front of me i try not to butt in and i always try to respect religion but religion is no good for me
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2008-04-04, 15:39 | Link #788 | ||||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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But those are details. The general idea is well accepted because, quite simply, we haven't found a viable alternative. Some other grand theory that'd somehow explain things better, fit with the data more closely, predict events more accurately. It's not for lack of trying. What biologist wouldn't dream of changing the paradigm again? Of being the second coming of Darwin? But, even if it does occur, it's more likely to be like what Relativity did to Newtownian mechanics. They're not wrong, but they're inaccurate when you go too fast. Just as the Earth is flat provided you don't go too far. You see, science, by its own admission, is never absolutely true. Just good enough. It's not about being right, it's about being accurate enough within a certain set of conditions. Quote:
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If you want a longer thought, you're going to have to present something more solid. You're going to have to explain how your creator does things, how your theory explains things better by describing the observed data more closely (quick question: why does your creator wants us to have appendicitis?) and, more importantly, predicts events more accurately than competing frameworks. If you don't have that, you're just indulging in idle reverie. It's not wrong, but it's not science, either. |
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2008-04-04, 17:11 | Link #789 | ||||||
Paparazzi
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 41
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The point I feel I've been making over an over and over again is just this. All research on evolution is based on the premise that human life has evolved from some other form of life. Fine I consider it a plausible option even with some reservations. But what would be the final hypothesis like when these very facts and those that have been discarded as incompatible or irrelevant are studied with another preconception. Or what kind of premise would they produce alone with no preconception what so ever. I don't feel like being guilty of too much scientific heresy just by asking that. Though I feel that someones are at this very moment lighting up the pyre. |
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2008-04-04, 17:38 | Link #791 | ||||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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That's not what occurs with the Bible. All you change, all you're allowed to hope to change, lest you be branded a heretic, is the interpretation. You can't say "Nope, observation has proven that Jesus never resurrected. Let's forget about that part". Quote:
Without the Bible and what's written in it, there is no Christianty. OTOH, we've completely outgrown The Origin of Species. We've got our own observations, our own interpretations. We've got friggin genetics. Quote:
Anyway, my point was that people don't believe in Evolution just because of a magic book. Quote:
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2008-04-04, 18:04 | Link #792 |
OH NO
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New York
Age: 32
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religion you really don't need it(unless your a person with no hope left in yourself) and people can never prove that god actually does exist because they are always repeating the same things over and over and over...
you always have to ask question if what your believing is actually true or that your believing a great big lie i know i use to beside now i can just on the important things like... my life |
2008-04-04, 18:08 | Link #793 | ||
Paparazzi
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 41
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Of course romans didn't write the old nor the new testament. Well... Paul the Apostle may have written some of it and he may have been a roman citizen. And on some parts it's quite difficult to tell but for the most, no they didn't. They collected it an compiled it to it's current form. Quote:
I may not have a better idea but I'm really eagerly waiting for one to pop up. I don't keep my hopes up though as ones posing them usually run into some quite religious-ish oppression. |
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2008-04-04, 18:39 | Link #794 | |||
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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When people think of the Bible, they think of the Christian Bible and they take it very literally. I think that's a mistake. The Bible is seen as the only religious text in Christianity, but I brought up the point that there are many religious texts in Judaism because those texts are often filled with interpretations by various rabbinical figures of what the biblical passages meant or represented. So you see, your question about "were they wrong when they wrote that God was perfect" isn't something we can really answer. For one, we don't know that they wrote that God was perfect. It was translated that way, but was it translated to English during a time when Christianity was going on about how God was perfection? The second point is what I mentioned before - even if they wrote that God was perfect, is it so horrible that maybe they were wrong, or maybe that was their understanding at the time? Quote:
Let's examine Scientology, for example. You need to pay huge sums of money for the teachings, and the organization (the Church of Scientology) is very, very rich. I would argue that their desire for money is to make a profit, rather than to simply keep the religion going. What about Christianity during the middle ages? The belief at the time was that you essentially owed the Church money for your sins. The more you paid, the more you were saving yourself; the more wealth you'd have in Heaven. Once again, people were essentially being hassled for money. I'd think that the purpose was to make a profit, but that really depends on what the heads of the Church felt. In modern Christianity there is a donation box or an offering tray that is passed around during services - nobody claims that you'll go to Hell or won't be saved if you don't donate anymore, and the donations now seem to go more toward simply running the services. What about the Buddhist monks? Even for claiming that the monks don't want anything and should live a simple life, there was a belief among the religious that the more you gave to a temple, the better off you'd be when you were reborn. Who created that concept? The monks lived modestly, but what if the creator of the religion had put that concept there so that people would feel that they had to enrich the lives of these humble monks with all sorts of material goods? As a result, the temples became very rich and lavish with donations - donations from people who felt that they had to make these donations in order for something good to happen to them. Now turn this over to Judaism. For certain, temples occasionally ask for donations but of the temples I've been to (including one or two in Israel) I've never seen a donation box or plate passed around. Judaism's roots are arguably totally different, as it stems deeply into the culture as well. For this reason I'm incredibly skeptical of many of the other religions. I can appreciate your skepticism as well, but don't group all religions under such thinking just because Christianity does it. These days nobody really enters religion to make tons of money, or to really make money at all (except for the Scientologists and a few other cults) but the roots of why money was asked for are rather important, in my opinion. Christianity's reasons are the most damning, to be certain, but Buddhism's reason isn't much better. I would not be surprised to hear that Judaism has a negative aspect as well, but I do not know of it and as of now I'm confident in stating that any reasons to ask for money are relatively pure, as opposed to being socially manipulative. Quote:
I've always thought that most religions didn't claim to have all of the answers. Rather, they introduced God and God's teachings, and ideally you'd sort of take it from there. The problem is that many people don't take it from there. They hang on to the words of their local religious authority as if those words were coming from God Himself and don't give it a second thought. Just because those people do such a thing doesn't mean that it's the intent of the religion, though...
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2008-04-04, 18:49 | Link #795 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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The tangent on evolution is interesting, but it's sort of detracting from the purpose of this thread. Please direct all subsequent arguments regarding it to the Creationism / Intelligent design thread.
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2008-04-04, 19:17 | Link #796 | |||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Some Ancient tells us there's only one God, some other tells us there's whole pantheon of them... How do you chose, and why should either of them know what he was talking about? |
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2008-04-05, 00:30 | Link #797 | ||||
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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1) Assuming God does exist, you support these things because these are trying to teach God. If God is the creator of everything then God is almost like a parent to everything. You respect and obey your parents, don't you? (At least to a certain degree) So you respect and obey God. You do what God tells you, and you give money to support endeavors that support God here on Earth. 2) Whether God exists or not, nobody is really deserving of money. People spend money to support what's important to them. Why do we continue to fund cancer research even though many scientists have failed to find a cure? We want that cure, that's why. So you fund your religious centers to support the continued thought ("research" if you want to use the analogous term) of that flavor of religion. Would you prefer that these religious centers completely close up shop because they don't have all the answers? That religion disappear from the world? Again, in some ways that might be nice, but if God really does exist then that'd be a rather frustrating outcome. Quote:
The other reason why they're special is based on an assumption we have to make: that people back then weren't any more gullible than they are now (not that it means much; people are pretty darn gullible these days too), and the fact that the Bible has been passed on for generations means that there was something worthwhile in it. This leads to my next response: Quote:
I believe that Norse mythology had a similar fate, as did Egyptian religion, and there are likely others. As far as I know these beliefs weren't discarded in favor of others, they simply fell out of favor with the population. What kept the beliefs of the Bible going for so long? The reason could lend credibility to what's written in the Bible, depending on what you think. How do you choose which religion to follow? Well, I don't know - I suppose that according to human psychology you go with what you feel would contribute more to making your life better. This part of the process isn't rational. We can't know which religion is right, or which one knows that they're talking about. Most people probably get the main idea, decide whether it makes sense to them or not, and then go with it. It's been said before and I think we all know it, but religion is faith-based for this reason. I did have another thought to add as well. I ignored religions that were cast aside in favor of other religions (Christianity, mostly) but why is it that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - three religions that are derived from the same God - are the majority religions? Why is it that despite being so old and even competing with one another, these three have remained throughout time and even become the most widely practiced? Christianity aside, Judaism and Islam didn't really recruit aggressively to their faith, so we can't say that it was because they were just aggressive about getting into people's minds. There are a lot of potential reasons and I don't mean to say that this proves that their beliefs are real while all others are false (after all, Hinduism still exists as well), but it's yet another thing to consider.
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2008-04-05, 02:45 | Link #798 | |||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Is he nice, is he cruel, does he sometimes walk the Earth, does he listen to prayers? What are the limits of his powers, of his knowledge? As far as I see, we don't know and we can't know. Every pronouncement on it will be met with a "we're merely humans. We can't hope to understand. It needs to be interpreted carefully", lest it contradict what we know of the here and now. Quote:
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But in the knowing God department, if all we've got is faith, I don't see how the faith of one man, here and now, is worth less than the faith of thousands centuries ago. |
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2008-04-05, 04:12 | Link #800 | |||||
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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Since I haven't read the Bible through I can't say for certain whether there's anything largely conclusive in there. There are decrees from God (such as 'you shall only worship me as the one true God/you shall not worship false idols') and those would seem to be rather conclusive, but it's always possible that people misunderstood God. We have no way of verifying it, that's true. The only reasoning we can use to say that it's probably true is to look over some of the activities that are detailed back then, when God was seemingly a bit more active in the world than He is now. People who went against what God wanted or said generally suffered. So we can presume that much of what made it into the Bible - at least, the "Old Testament" - is good enough for God. Quote:
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As for what religion brings to the table in terms of knowing God, it brings a unified concept of God. Although I am relatively open to the idea of what God is like, the major religions have largely made up their minds and have based it upon observations from the Bible. None of that will matter to you if you view the Bible as a simple story, of course, and this is where it gets tricky. It's also why I, as someone who doesn't take the Bible literally, do not buy into the views of mainstream religions. However I can appreciate their opinions, as they are populated with people who have dedicated their lives to the study of the Bible and other religious texts. Quote:
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not a debate, philosophy, religion |
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