Code Geass R2 - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[Airi]

Originally Posted by hero147

It wouldve been soo awesome, after Zero removed his king from the field, and then Schniezel called him nii-sama.

He will call him "Foolish otouto"

[Eisdrache]

Originally Posted by Var

Pure nonsense. Pure and utter nonsense. A player can call himself out on an inevitable checkmate and simply knock over his king if he wishes or continue playing. For instance, I am losing, my king is castle-trapped by pawns and my opponent's queen is in line for a checkmate next turn. Assume that no matter the move I make I cannot stop it. I can very easily, and in all legality say 'it'll be (it's) checkmate' and knock over my king. I can also say 'checkmate' since my opponent is not some brain dead idiot and he will understand that I am acknowledging his checkmate on me. All that is being argued over is formality. I am clearly not making a move that puts my opponent into check or even mate and am simply noting the innevitable fact. Just as I can, turns before I've won, say 'checkmate is innevitable' and my opponent can easily just give up at that point. In fact that's how many games of chess end (without the verbal exchange).

Knocking your king over is a very old habit and is very rarely used by tournament players these days. The used method is to say "I give up" and holding his hand over the board to congratulate your opponent by shake hands. (Anyone who finds grammatical errors here can keep them for himself).

However saying "checkmate" in a situation (even if it will happen next turn) when there is none on the board will earn you a weird look from your opponent at least. You do not say checkmate in the meaning of giving up, you either say "I give up" or knock over your king. As a little side note, saying that you will check mate your opponent in x turns is considered as very arrogant.

Originally Posted by Var

Now in Schneizel's case I'm playing myself into a checkmate scenario where the king is being attacked and should be taken next turn. The opponent, however, does not have to take the king. The game technically ends at that point, as it is mate on the king, but the opponent still has to make his move as the mate did not occur on his turn and the 'loser' did not knock over his king. As such the king may be left alive and left in check, but not mate. Which is what happened.

If you are in check mate you do not take a next turn as every possible move is illegal. The game indeed ends here but not for the reasons you stated. This didnt happen in the Schneizel vs Zero game since there was no check mate ever on the board.

Originally Posted by Var

Also, Schneizel cannot/should not call check on Lelouch as his move is illegal. You cannot illegally, and with blatant intent check a king. There is to note that one must call the more important first, in this case, the checkmate on Schneizel. He calls himself on the checkmate, and not Lelouch on the check on the king.

You cant make a move to check mate yourself as it will be always an illegal move. Schneizel didnt say check mate because of the situation on the board but rather in a psychological sense, this has been adressed more than enough times

[Aquaman OS]

Lelouch was hoping he could settle the situation right there. Now Schneizel has a hint of his real identity where as before he had no clue, if only due to their limited time together. Remember this is only the 2nd time Schneizel's been the in same room with Zero and the first time was back at the ruins where he only saw him from a distance. So while Lelouch had motivation to win Schneizel did not as he could always retrieve Suzaku later on after the plan to arrest the Knights.

So basically Schneizel just didn't care. He was blantantly going around the rules because he wasn't really interested in the game just Zero's reactions.

So what's the big deal. Any talk about what they would do about it was interrupted by Nina's laughable assassination attempt anyway.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

Knocking your king over is a very old habit and is very rarely used by tournament players these days. The used method is to say "I give up" and holding his hand over the board to congratulate your opponent by shake hands. (Anyone who finds grammatical errors here can keep them for himself).

I have have seen each with regular consistency; the method of giving up used is really based on the player. I, for example, will knock over my king and then offer my hand in congratulations. My coach will simply extend his hand or say 'I give up'. There is no simple 'common' manner as it all depends on where, who, and when you are playing someone. Especially their mood.

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

However saying "checkmate" in a situation (even if it will happen next turn) when there is none on the board will earn you a weird look from your opponent at least. You do not say checkmate in the meaning of giving up, you either say "I give up" or knock over your king. As a little side note, saying that you will check mate your opponent in x turns is considered as very arrogant.

Chess player aren't arrogant? Most if not all the ones I've played proffesionally at my age or younger are the most arrogant ass hats on the planet (myself included at times). I have played plenty of matches where either I or an opponent have simply said "mate is coming" and surrendered. Also, take note that the game played in the episode was not under professional supervision. As such we should apply more casual terms and methods of play to the game and how we judge it then, say, if they were playing in Russia in the late 1900's.

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

If you are in check mate you do not take a next turn as every possible move is illegal. The game indeed ends here but not for the reasons you stated. This didnt happen in the Schneizel vs Zero game since there was no check mate ever on the board.

Schneizel made the move into checkmate. Lelouch was then at turn, in check. He, technically, can do any number of things. As I said, the game did not end at that point as it was Lelouch decision as to what to do with the situation. At that point the game could proceed in several different ways.

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

You cant make a move to check mate yourself as it will be always an illegal move. Schneizel didnt say check mate because of the situation on the board but rather in a psychological sense, this has been adressed more than enough times

He did say checkmate for both. He was putting himself into checkmate, hence calling it out, and also putting Zero into checkmate for the metaphorical sense. Even if it is an illegal move he has the right to call the fact that he is putting himself into mate. No rule anywhere says that you cannot call out when performing an illegal move. A player can play illegally (without intent) and call check or checkmate on his opponent, never realizing that, say, the piece he moved revealed his king to an attack. The move is of course taken back, but the player was still allowed to call out check/mate. This is what happened, the only difference being that Lelouch did not call back the move.

[UltimateClash]

To go off on a tangent from the current disscussion: Do we have any clear lineart of the Ikaruga? If so, can someone confirm it has flight decks up top?


If not, check episode nine, around when Toudou is reading the manual....Are those big silver side pieces flight decks (serioously, I mean like Argama-type linear catapaults)

[RedWing]

He did say checkmate for both........ A player can play illegally (without intent) and call check or checkmate on his opponent, never realizing that, say, the piece he moved revealed his king to an attack. The move is of course taken back, but the player was still allowed to call out check/mate. This is what happened, the only difference being that Lelouch did not call back the move.

Please show me how Schniezel was able to checkmate Lelouch. He simply should have said check, there was no mate.

Please note I agree that the writers discarded the rules in order to produce effect. But the fact is that calling checkmate in that position was wrong.

[Schneizel]

Schneizel checkmated Lelouch psychologically.

Why is this so hard to understand.

[Kaioshin Sama]

And now for something completely different.

This is my personal opinion on the idea of nationalism in Code Geass that was raised by Crusader of THAT regarding the events of this episode. Have a gander if you will and maybe we can use this as a topic if people want since the Chess game one is wearing thin.

Also:

Here's a really professionally done fandub of the Tian Zi scene in this episode I found. Just thought I'd share it for fun.

[Schneizel]

"Seas and oceans"? She says schools and oceans.
"Empress Tenshi"? Her name is not Tenshi.

[Kang Seung Jae]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

And now for something completely different.

This is my personal opinion on the idea of nationalism in Code Geass that was raised by Crusader of THAT regarding the events of this episode. Have a gander if you will and maybe we can use this as a topic if people want since the Chess game one is wearing thin.

I believe the whole "nationalism theme" to be just ramblings of people who can't tell the difference between alternate history and reality. (If we do not include people who do it for the sake of talk).

[RedWing]

I found your piece really insightful, but ill ask: Why is it that the writers chose for Brittanian line is shown to be so...... correct. What I am talking about is in regards to Charles' Social Darwinism. Looking objectively would make you believe that he is right as, the strength of his heirs (Lelouch, Schniezel and Cornelia epecially) was bred by his strong beliefs. Even those without military prowess are IMO extraordinary compared to other citizens. Euphemia and Nunnally are shown to be very strong willed and smart.

So why is Charles shown to be right?

The dub was good!

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by RedWing

I found your piece really insightful, but ill ask: Why is it that the writers chose for Brittanian line is shown to be so...... correct. What I am talking about is in regards to Charles' Social Darwinism. Looking objectively would make you believe that he is right as, the strength of his heirs (Lelouch, Schniezel and Cornelia epecially) was bred by his strong beliefs. Even those without military prowess are IMO extraordinary compared to other citizens. Euphemia and Nunnally are shown to be very strong willed and smart.

So why is Charles shown to be right?

The dub was good!

Charles moral standards rely on the fact that he has none, as C.C points out the topic of social Darwinism is based on a simple fact, the rule of nature for the most part. Strength, as is weakness, is not inherently evil as I have made a point of addressing. There really is no right or wrong in that regard, they simply are what they are and that's it. Human attitude and decisions are what define them as whether being right or wrong, as morals are a concept rather then the rule in this case. Charles isn't so much right as in he is 'right' in a typical moral stand point, I mean I think he's a complete ass, but in terms of basic facts and structure then you can't get anything more grounded then what he says. But once again, this doesn't mean he's in anyway 'right', as always attitude and perspective can reinterpret this basic rule in a number of ways. Take Lelouch for example, he exemplifies constantly how he needs power, power in order to fight the world that rules with power. It's an acknowledgment of the basic scheme of things in how the world works, that's just the truth of the matter, but how he utilizes it as a means of protection rather then subjugation is what helps differentiate himself from his father. To be strong is not to be right or wrong, if I could pin it down then strength and power are merely tools, it's up to the user to define whether they are used wisely or abusively in this case.

[Lowell1025]

Originally Posted by RedWing

I found your piece really insightful, but ill ask: Why is it that the writers chose for Brittanian line is shown to be so...... correct. What I am talking about is in regards to Charles' Social Darwinism. Looking objectively would make you believe that he is right as, the strength of his heirs (Lelouch, Schniezel and Cornelia epecially) was bred by his strong beliefs. Even those without military prowess are IMO extraordinary compared to other citizens. Euphemia and Nunnally are shown to be very strong willed and smart.

So why is Charles shown to be right?

The dub was good!

huh? what about other characters? Were they not strong also even though some of them are not Bananans?

Its easy to find many different patterns in a lot of things, really, if you are creative and imaginative enough. The tricky part is to distinguish ones thats relevant to the whole, should those pattern was even meant to be relevant in the first place.

[Lowell1025]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

Audience: Do not want.

Zero/Kaguya: Great! Now Suzaku can be my husband!

@everyone: Anyone want to explain the rules Geasschess or chess MK II?

Please! No more chess discussions! =*(******

Btw I must admit....Kaoshin's really smart in trying to flood enough heated debates about the chess scene until everyone involved cries: "we get it! We surrender! Just please please let us discuss something else because we're getting sick just by hearing the word "chess" !" That's really cleaver!.......

I learned a lot from him, I really, really, really really did.

edit:[ops just noticed he changed the topic ]

Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae

I believe the whole "nationalism theme" to be just ramblings of people who can't tell the difference between alternate history and reality. (If we do not include people who do it for the sake of talk).

Oh come on, give the guy some credit. Although not clearly stated it part of the paragraph can be interpreted as against barriers that kept men apart, which..should be a good thing in your book...right?

[Kang Seung Jae]

Originally Posted by Lowell1025

Oh come on, give the guy some credit. Although not clearly stated it part of the paragraph can be interpreted as against barriers that kept men apart, which..should be a good thing in your book...right?

You seem to have missed this part:

(If we do not include people who do it for the sake of talk).

I was targeting the people who cries "BANZAI!" or "IMPERIALIST!" whenever they see any slight hint of nationalism.

[geewhiz]

Has anyone wondered why Schneizel saw fit to tell Zero he was comparing him to Charles following Zero's reaction to the checkmate? Perhaps Schneizel saw, and was attempting to deduce, a relationship between Zero and Charles

[Ronin Aquila]

I have a feeling, that somewhere in Akihabara right now, someone is happily whistling as they are unloading boxes of Doujinshi involving what would happen to poor Tenzi-Chan when Lelouch gets her inside his mecha....

[Jestersage]

Originally Posted by Ronin Aquila

I have a feeling, that somewhere in Akihabara right now, someone is happily whistling as they are unloading boxes of Doujinshi involving what would happen to poor Tenzi-Chan when Lelouch gets her inside his mecha....

Luckily, everyone knows that Lelouch only love Nunnally.

Unfortunately, we all know how Tenzi will reward Li after this battle...

[Ronin Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jestersage

Luckily, everyone knows that Lelouch only love Nunnally.

That too, unfortunately, is a VERY popular subject-matter of Doujinshi.

Unfortunately, we all know how Tenzi will reward Li after this battle...

Li? Which one is he?

[Jestersage]

Originally Posted by Ronin Aquila

Li? Which one is he?

Li Xingke. Would you prefer Xingke?