[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Renall]

One thing I do find cute about the sub sequence (about the only thing) is Kinzo and B.C. having to communicate between the two sides and each other in a third language entirely. However, the very convenient listing of the languages Kinzo just happens to speak (Japanese, Chinese, and English) make the epitaph solution offered a little too perfect. Then again, Kinzo was already in his 30s or somesuch.

Was English proficiency normal for well-educated men in Japan around that time? The Chinese is easy to explain if he really did live in Taiwan. And I guess you'd be dealing with the British a lot even before the war. Heck, from the outbreak of hostilities in Japan until 1945, Kinzo'd have enough time to just teach himself English.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

As far as I know Japan could still continue that war for a long while if it weren't for the nuclear bombs.

Thy could, and planned to, make the invasion so costly that it would result in an armistice rather than total surrender.

They even built very interesting bunkers for the occasion, it turns out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsush...l_Headquarters

Originally Posted by Renall

Was English proficiency normal for well-educated men in Japan around that time? The Chinese is easy to explain if he really did live in Taiwan. And I guess you'd be dealing with the British a lot even before the war. Heck, from the outbreak of hostilities in Japan until 1945, Kinzo'd have enough time to just teach himself English.

Considering that it still isn't normal? Actually, the sources of Kinzo's interest in everything Western are never adequately indicated.

[Jan-Poo]

I'm more surprised that an italian knew english that well, especially at that time.

But well, all of the regular crew members were totally unable to speak and understand english as it should be expected.

I think it can just be said that Beatrice and Kinzo were exceptional individuals. That's probably why they got along that well.

[ijriims]

Actually, can anyone explain why Kyrie and Rudolf went on a killing spree in Lyon's world?

There should be no 900 tons of explosives prepared to cover up the mass murder, so why kill?

[Renall]

Because Kyrie's brain imploded and she somehow became convinced that the best thing to do to cover up several accidental deaths was to murder everybody else and then let them explode.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Renall

Because Kyrie's brain imploded and she somehow became convinced that the best thing to do to cover up several accidental deaths was to murder everybody else and then let them explode.

Are there accidental deaths in Lyon's world? I don't remembered it was mentioned.

Apparently in Lyon's world there were not going to be certain "planned to be used to kill you all if you failed to solve the epitaph" rifles at the underground VIP room

[Renall]

The deaths of Krauss and Natsuhi in the Tea Party were (apparent) accidents. Of course, you never know...

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Actually, can anyone explain why Kyrie and Rudolf went on a killing spree in Lyon's world?

There should be no 900 tons of explosives prepared to cover up the mass murder, so why kill?

according to what is shown in the tea party normal world. Kinzo set up the 900 tons of explosive at the time he used to made his gambles to become rich.
He was ready at any time to blow up himself and all of his family should he fail. So this has nothing to do with Lion because this is something that existed before the divergence between the two worlds.
Personally this is something I would put it past Kinzo. What kind of life Beatrice2 would have after all the persons she knows die? Kinzo couldn't be that shortsighted.

Anywhere there is still a problem that I noticed. While the explosive could still be there in Lion's world, there wouldn't be any Beatrice to explain the relatives about the explosive and the mechanism. Why would Kinzo or Genji tell them about that? Bern said that everything in Lion world would progress the same as it went in the normal world. But clearly something is amiss.

[Renall]

An excellent point: Let's say, by this theory, that one day Kinzo decided to end it all and blew up the house. Kuwadorian survives because we know that it's outside the blast radius. But if Beatrice-2 is still alive... what happens to her? Kinzo just blew himself up. Genji and Kumasawa and any other servants hired there may or may not be present at any given time. Worst case scenario, she's just stuck there until... I guess until Kawabata arrives to check out what the heck just happened.

If he cared at all about Beatrice-2 in any way, why would he risk a situation where she's left alone? Wouldn't he, if he were that crazy, want her blown up too?

[Will Wright]

You know, this might be unintentional but Shkanon violates Dine.

14. The method of murder, and the means of detecting it, must be be rational and scientific. That is to say, pseudo-science and purely imaginative and speculative devices are not to be tolerated in the roman policier.

Of course if only the first 12 apply, then it isn't a problem. But if all 20 apply, 14th will be broken since multiple personalities is not exactly a scientific fact. There is a great deal of debate about it.

Unless Shkanon pretends to be two people on purpose instead of for some deeply psychological reason. Now THAT I would love.

Also, did you guys ever hear about the "single red timeline" theory? It's a theory that all reds are not valid for individual games, but for the single truth. If you align each red per chapter from episodes 1-4 you could theoretically get to the truth.

...Okay fine I just made that theory up and I'm sure someone thought of it before and realized it didn't work.

Still, anyone up for helping me separate reds by time/chapter to see if it would get us something close to the truth?

[Renall]

Well, there's nothing irrational or unscientific about acting. Suggesting that multiple personalities are involved, or even that the Yasu story actually supports multiple personalities (it doesn't, really, though it is curious all the same), is simply speculative. For all we know it's all true, one character is playing 3+ roles, and is perfectly sane and well aware of the differentiation between all of them and him/herself. That, at least, is perfectly compatible with Dine.

[Will Wright]

I know, I mentioned as much in my original post. In fact, I would prefer if we got "Shkanon is a screwed up person who does it to torture people" instead of "SHKANON SUFFERED A LOT AND HAS MULTIPLE PERSONALITIES."

It would be beautiful, and I would like the whole Shkanontriceyasu thing if it were just one really messed up individual screwing with everyone.

[Renall]

I'm just having a hard time buying this person is even logistically capable of being the actual culprit, though.

Some kind of messed up play-actor, maybe.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Will Wright

Still, anyone up for helping me separate reds by time/chapter to see if it would get us something close to the truth?

What exactly do you plan to do?

Speaking of red, I had an idea halfway through reading Ep7, but didn't post it yet, now is a good time I guess.

Red is the absolute truth, if we discard it, we have nothing to lean on. However, it is still the product of agreement with the witch, we agree to trust that the statements uttered in red are at least technically true. Trying to interpret red in language other than plain produces, in parallel to the interpretations certain theories want (like personality death Shkanon) spurious nonsense that is hard to deny (Kinzotrice, Battlertrice).

But what if something exists that is more true than red and contradicts red? Golden text at least implies it may in certain cases be such. What would be the conditions for this to work?

Constantly repeated "without love it cannot be seen" produces lots of interpretations, often rather random ones, but there is one interesting behaviour in a love relationship, called "secure base behaviour". In certain cases you take the side of someone you love, even if they are wrong... even against truth.

If this line of thinking has any merit, there should exist a red statement or a set of red statements that need to be disregarded to arrive at the truth. There are probably no more than two or three, and they will probably be syntactically different from the rest. They will also most likely state that someone did something consciously, rather than did not do something, as red usually does.

Any ideas?

[Jan-Poo]

The more I read the Van Dine rules the more I see them incompatible with this story.

Unless they have a very free interpretation, there are quite some blatant infringements. In case they have a free interpretation then I see little point in speculating using them as referral until the game itself show the modified and adapted rules.

We are reaching Ep8 now and at this point the most important mystery that still need to be solved is what happened during those today in Rokkenjima from the 1998 perspective.
However from this perspective there isn't a single body. Is this a mystery at all?

[Geekodot]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

However from this perspective there isn't a single body. Is this a mystery at all?

Originally Posted by http://witch-hunt.com/hist.html

Is guesswork possible or impossible in Umineko no Naku Koro ni?

The genre of this work is probably a serial murder mystery.

However, that does not guarantee that reasoning and guesswork are possible.


Those who enjoy stupid puzzles that are made to be solved can leave now.

Umineko no Naku Koro ni is the worst kind of tale, created without any intention of letting all of
you solve it.


However, to all of the worst kinds of people, who hear that and just want to challenge it more,
welcome.

I am myself sending out this tale to make these worst kinds of people surrender.


No matter what kinds of strange events occur, all of you will try to explain it with humans and tricks,
and deny all mysteries, as the worst kind of human supremacists.

Please, try to explain each one of the many baffling cases with humans and tricks as best you can.


I want to see how far I can penetrate everyone's human supremacy.


The culprit is a witch. All alibis and tricks are magic.

This is not a mystery, but fantasy!


I want to see you surrender and say that while crying bitter tears.


I do not expect a line of reasoning leading to the truth to appear.

I want to find out just how many people can deny the witch until the very end and maintain a 'human
culprit theory'.


In short, this is a tale of a battle between humans and witches.

It clearly states that this is not a mystery, but that stubborn suckers are still welcome to try solving it.

The alternate opening in ep 1-4 (if you can call it that?) also states that this is no mystery.

[Gohan78]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The more I read the Van Dine rules the more I see them incompatible with this story.

I wouldn't apply any Van Dine rules to Umineko other than the three that were explicitly given in red by Will (1st, 7th and 11th).
After all, the Knox Rules were also heavily altered by Ryukishi to fit his tale (especially 3rd and 9th, while 5th was entirely discarded).

[Renall]

Yeah, the absence of Knox's 5th suggests not all of Dine applies either. Since we only have a handful of the proposed full number, I would guess we're not done with Will or the Van Dine rules yet, at least until all are clarified (which could only occur in ep8, if ever).

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Renall

I would guess we're not done with Will or the Van Dine rules yet, at least until all are clarified (which could only occur in ep8, if ever).

OR in his next interview.

[Arachanox]

Could someone explain the nature of the "white text battles" in EP7? How did Wright and Claire accomplish anything if Wright's theories didn't have to be responded to and Claire's statements were not fully trustable?