(L) Arpeggio of Blue Steel (Aoki Hagane no Arpeggio)

[MrTerrorist]

Originally Posted by Tim yy

@ synx, Thanks ^, English is my second language as well, hope doing postings/translations will help me to improve.

I've stated this many many times, I don't like misleading information when it comes to the scanlation, because the Manga will always be our primary source of reference in our discussions.

The satellite is a secrete that belonged to the Japan's Central District, it did not come from China

Ok thanks. I knew there was something weird with that scanlation.

[Xero8420]

By the way, I wonder why the translation is lagging behind 1 chapter? When Ch.50 was translated, then Ch. 51 came out? Can someone explain what happened? Sorry for not informed.

[Tenzen12]

Original translator dropped this manga for personal reasons. Now people who doesn't translate usualy doing their best to get us new chapter to instead.

[synx]

Originally Posted by DLRevan

@AC-Phoenix: That speculation does not explain the non-use of tactical nuclear munitions. In comparison to SSBNs, these can be delivered via conventional means like through a torpedo, missile or shell, and they cause much less irradiation (comparatively), except for a number of types that maximize neutron radiation output. I cannot see these as not having been used against the Fog at least once, and it only makes sense that they are ineffective at all. Because if both the vibration warhead and nukes need to get past the Klein field anyway, and if nukes actually did damage Fog ships significantly....to hell with the Vibration warhead, I'd start looking for a way to breach the Klein field of the Flagships so I can nuke them specifically.

The most logical explanation is that Arpeggio takes place in an AU which did not invent nuclear weapons for whatever reason. But this stretches suspension of disbelief so far past the breaking point it rebounds on itself and forms a new object. We know that they have nuclear reactors. If you have nuclear reactors why don't you have nuclear weapons??? One is significantly easier to do than the other, and it's not the reactor.

[DLRevan]

Originally Posted by synx

The most logical explanation is that Arpeggio takes place in an AU which did not invent nuclear weapons for whatever reason. But this stretches suspension of disbelief so far past the breaking point it rebounds on itself and forms a new object. We know that they have nuclear reactors. If you have nuclear reactors why don't you have nuclear weapons??? One is significantly easier to do than the other, and it's not the reactor.

But I agree with you that nuclear weapons should exist. So the only other logical explanation is that nuclear weapons are not effective against the Fog and that it is for reasons other than the Klein field, because they feel the need to procure the Vibration warhead.

It's not because of countermeasures against typical delivery mechanisms, if its the same as our world there's no shortage of nukes.

It's most likely not because of the potential fallout, we're not talking extremely high yield ICBMs or neutron bombs. The reluctance to use 'tactical' nuclear weapons specifically today is more to do with avoiding escalation into nuclear war than with the nuclear fallout, because even though all nukes produce some radiation, even fusion warheads, frankly it's comparatively minimal to the WMD-style of nukes most people are familiar with.

This is probably a good place to reiterate...nukes are not very different from conventional explosives in terms of short term damage effects and as a tactical weapon. Both regular explosions and nuclear ones produce thermal and kinetic effects in order to deal damage. The only difference is the vastly greater yield nukes have for the same mass of triggering material.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by synx

I have already addressed this. Every time we can see Fog normal torpedoes clearly they look like standard torpedoes, like the Mk48 ADCAP. After 401 enters Yokosuka, we see her using a new model of torpedo, the one that looks like a missile. Then when Takao leaves Iwo Jima we see her using the same torpedoes???

Furthermore, that does not change the fact that the physical effects of the warhead match that of conventional explosives.

And that's exactly the thing...how do you know they are conventional and not based off something else

[synx]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

And that's exactly the thing...how do you know they are conventional and not based off something else

Because the observed effects match exactly conventional weapons. Thus far, the authors have at least paid lip service to the laws of physics. And Fog technology that blatantly breaks physics has thoroughly been described in the liner notes for the volumes.

[Arael]

Originally Posted by synx

Most likely

A. Gunzo 'borrowed' some from Takao

or

B. Hyuuga still had some in her hull when she sank.

If they could magically make more corrosive torpedoes than the entire plot with the vibration torpedo would make no sense as they could just ya know, give them corrosive torpedoes.

stop copying me.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by synx

Because the observed effects match exactly conventional weapons. Thus far, the authors have at least paid lip service to the laws of physics. And Fog technology that blatantly breaks physics has thoroughly been described in the liner notes for the volumes.

The observed effects are the Seehund vanishing in the blasts...that's all.

It's not stated if it's antimatter or small-scale spacetime warping like corrosion warheads or something else...nothing that blatantly screams plothole anyway

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by DLRevan

@AC-Phoenix: That speculation does not explain the non-use of tactical nuclear munitions. In comparison to SSBNs, these can be delivered via conventional means like through a torpedo, missile or shell, and they cause much less irradiation (comparatively), except for a number of types that maximize neutron radiation output. I cannot see these as not having been used against the Fog at least once, and it only makes sense that they are ineffective at all. Because if both the vibration warhead and nukes need to get past the Klein field anyway, and if nukes actually did damage Fog ships significantly....to hell with the Vibration warhead, I'd start looking for a way to breach the Klein field of the Flagships so I can nuke them specifically.

If the Nuke can actually damage the Klein field the problem is solved.
Point is to sink ships of Kongou's size you'd need according to that wiki entry several tactical warheads which will invitably increase the amount of radiation.

And fog ships are not stationary either, they move.
Then think about how many you'd need to sink ships like Musashi or Yamato.

Just think back what happened when Fukushima's reaktor exploded, the wind carried an irradiated cload all the way to france.
We are not in the fallout series that you just randomly lead a nuclear war making earth uninhabitable for several 100 years.
If you need an amount that leaves the oceans irradiated you don't need to take the ocean back at all - the result would be the same.

Originally Posted by synx

Actually... a micro-black hole will die off in a few seconds due to Hawking radiation. As the mass of a black hole decreases, the Hawking radiation increases. So the smaller your black hole the faster it will die.

Of course it corrosive warheads actually worked this way then they would be breaking the conservation of mass-energy, as the mass inside the radius just seems to go away. If you take the mass within the observed area of effect and convert it into energy using E=MC^2 (this ONLY accounts for rest mass) you get very silly numbers.

Yes Micro black holes die fast, which is my point.
As stated earlier, the size of the actual singularity the corrosive torpedoes cause can no longer be considered to be micro as they are as large as a football.
Note that a blackhole has according to several documanteries the same gravitational pull as if you'd press all of earth's mass to the size of a golf ball.

The chances of a black hole this size to dissipate in just a few seconds (I think in this case the anime is a good source) is very low.

Yet the question remains what actually happens to the mass the weapon absorbs as it was clearly shown that the fog is using graviton weapons.
Either way that black sphere in the middle is definitely meant to be some kind of singularity.

[DLRevan]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Just think back what happened when Fukushima's reaktor exploded, the wind carried an irradiated cload all the way to france.
We are not in the fallout series that you just randomly lead a nuclear war making earth uninhabitable for several 100 years.
If you need an amount that leaves the oceans irradiated you don't need to take the ocean back at all - the result would be the same.

Don't compare a fusion device typical of a hydrogen bomb that only uses fission as a triggering reaction with a commercial thermal reactor that is only fission-based with no reaction to consume the neutron radiation.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by DLRevan

Don't compare a fusion device typical of a hydrogen bomb that only uses fission as a triggering reaction with a commercial thermal reactor that is only fission-based with no reaction to consume the neutron radiation.

That is assuming all nuclear weapons in the world are actually already hydrogen bombs which I'm certain they are not.

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by DLRevan

Don't compare a fusion device typical of a hydrogen bomb that only uses fission as a triggering reaction with a commercial thermal reactor that is only fission-based with no reaction to consume the neutron radiation.

while exploded fusion bombs do produce less fallout ones that are destroyed before that are just as poisonous just think of how many would be shot down to take even 1 ship down.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

If the Nuke can actually damage the Klein field the problem is solved.
Point is to sink ships of Kongou's size you'd need according to that wiki entry several tactical warheads which will invitably increase the amount of radiation.

And fog ships are not stationary either, they move.
Then think about how many you'd need to sink ships like Musashi or Yamato.

Just think back what happened when Fukushima's reaktor exploded, the wind carried an irradiated cload all the way to france.
We are not in the fallout series that you just randomly lead a nuclear war making earth uninhabitable for several 100 years.
If you need an amount that leaves the oceans irradiated you don't need to take the ocean back at all - the result would be the same.



Yes Micro black holes die fast, which is my point.
As stated earlier, the size of the actual singularity the corrosive torpedoes cause can no longer be considered to be micro as they are as large as a football.
Note that a blackhole has according to several documanteries the same gravitational pull as if you'd press all of earth's mass to the size of a golf ball.

The chances of a black hole this size to dissipate in just a few seconds (I think in this case the anime is a good source) is very low.

Yet the question remains what actually happens to the mass the weapon absorbs as it was clearly shown that the fog graviton weapons.
Either way that black sphere in the middle is definitely meant to be some kind of singularity.

No the black sphere is the event horizon. There may not be a true singularity since the gravity well is created by a graviton burst and not a mass so once that disappears the singularity would no longer exist.

oh and golfball earth would still only have a pull of 1 g if you were 6,371.0km from its center

and mico black holes are up to the mass of the moon.

[synx]

Originally Posted by Arael

stop copying me.

Huh? Where did you post that?

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

If the Nuke can actually damage the Klein field the problem is solved.
Point is to sink ships of Kongou's size you'd need according to that wiki entry several tactical warheads which will invitably increase the amount of radiation.

And fog ships are not stationary either, they move.
Then think about how many you'd need to sink ships like Musashi or Yamato.

Just think back what happened when Fukushima's reaktor exploded, the wind carried an irradiated cload all the way to france.
We are not in the fallout series that you just randomly lead a nuclear war making earth uninhabitable for several 100 years.
If you need an amount that leaves the oceans irradiated you don't need to take the ocean back at all - the result would be the same.



Yes Micro black holes die fast, which is my point.
As stated earlier, the size of the actual singularity the corrosive torpedoes cause can no longer be considered to be micro as they are as large as a football.
Note that a blackhole has according to several documanteries the same gravitational pull as if you'd press all of earth's mass to the size of a golf ball.

The chances of a black hole this size to dissipate in just a few seconds (I think in this case the anime is a good source) is very low.

Yet the question remains what actually happens to the mass the weapon absorbs as it was clearly shown that the fog is using graviton weapons.
Either way that black sphere in the middle is definitely meant to be some kind of singularity.

Nulcear reactors do not explode. They melt. What happened at Fukushima was that the superheated reactor core got into contact with the rushing water and caused a steam explosion. The same thing happened at Chernobyl, except worse because they were actually running an experiment without supervision.

Anyhow not that I've thought of it, it is entirely possible that Klein fields can act as a neutron poison. Based on the observed output of Wave Force Armor we can conclude that a proximity blast will probably not be sufficient to saturate the Klein Field.

Okay so let's do a little math here.

Spoiler for boring math stuff:

Using Schwarzchild's relation we have

    2GM
R = ---
    c^2

Where R is the radius of the black hole, M is the mass of the black hole, G is the gravitational constant, and c is the speed of light.

Doing a little algebra we get

    Rc^2
M = ---
    2G

So now for a given radius we can calculate the mass in a black hole. Let's take the ones 401 fired at Haruna and Kirishima, since the diameter of those are very roughly the length of the ships themselves. Wikipedia gives the length of Haruna at 222m.

Using R = 222 m, c = 300,000,000 m/s, and G = 6.673e-11 m^3 * kg^-1 * s^-2 we arrive at

1.497e+29 kg

Okay that's a really silly number. Maybe you are on to something here

[DLRevan]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

That is assuming all nuclear weapons in the world are actually already hydrogen bombs which I'm certain they are not.

The majority of nuclear stockpiles are of that type. Specialized types and the high yield ones that are found in ICBMs are the least common.

About the fallout, all nukes do produce radiation since there's no true fusion device yet, and fusion bombs do not consume all the radiation. But I'm saying you can't compare it to the Fukushima leak...which is a leak of nuclear material, not an explosion and is far 'dirtier'. Nuclear fallout from small nuclear devices has always been overrated, because people only really know and think about the Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombs.

[synx]

Originally Posted by DLRevan

The majority of nuclear stockpiles are of that type. Specialized types and the high yield ones that are found in ICBMs are the least common.

About the fallout, all nukes do produce radiation since there's no true fusion device yet, and fusion bombs do not consume all the radiation. But I'm saying you can't compare it to the Fukushima leak...which is a leak of nuclear material, not an explosion and is far 'dirtier'. Nuclear fallout from small nuclear devices has always been overrated, because people only really know and think about the Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombs.

It depends. If you have a Teller-Ulam fission-fusion-fission design, it would be far dirtier. The original Tsar Bomba called for 100MT but they scaled it back by removing the U-238 tamper which would have caused a tremendous amount of fallout due to the U-238 fast fission process.

AFAIK, most Russian nukes are of this type, although it is difficult to confirm due to the nature of this material. Most of it is in classified archives.

EDIT: Or you can just be a dick and salt your warhead with a high radiation-producing compound when irradiated, like cobalt-59. The US government bought out all the cobalt during the Cold War for this reason.

[DLRevan]

It doesn't matter for our discussion. Two-stage designs exist in considerable numbers, these would be the ones used against the Fog first, if anything.

And I honestly doubt that they would not be used. Nuclear deterrence is just that, deterrence. the reluctance to use such weapons is due to the mutual avoidance of nuclear escalation and annihilation, a factor that has no weight whatsoever when it comes to combating the Fog. Military doctrine does not factor fallout as a strategic consideration except in terms of territory denial.

[Tim yy]

Lol, the Nuke debate is Heating up DUM DUM DUM...(peeps trying to calculate the mass of a black hole?)

@Dark Lord Revan

It is this one point that I would like to elaborate on with my own opinion. "Wreckage" might be a misleading term in that the wrecks of Fog ships might still be active and functional in some way.

If you would imagine the nanomaterials forming a condensed network when linked with each other, they may fail to perform their normal tasks and lose their link with the controlling entity (Union Cores) bu are otherwise still functional. So basically, if a ship got bisected in half, for example, it would cease to function as a ship as one portion will lose its connection with the Union Core, but the portion that got cut off is technically still functional.

CONFIRMED! or at least 99% pretty much is how you explained it, I couldn't even put it into better words than the way you explained.
~~~~~~~~~
When I have more time next week, I actually want to summarize what we've discussed so far and tie that in with a few things in the manga/glossaries, let's see if we can present a full picture about Nanomaterials and some basic fog technologies.

[synx]

Originally Posted by DLRevan

It doesn't matter for our discussion. Two-stage designs exist in considerable numbers, these would be the ones used against the Fog first, if anything.

And I honestly doubt that they would not be used. Nuclear deterrence is just that, deterrence. the reluctance to use such weapons is due to the mutual avoidance of nuclear escalation and annihilation, a factor that has no weight whatsoever when it comes to combating the Fog. Military doctrine does not factor fallout as a strategic consideration except in terms of territory denial.

The mostly likely reason I can think of is that Klein fields can act as a neutron poison.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by synx

Huh? Where did you post that?


Nulcear reactors do not explode. They melt. What happened at Fukushima was that the superheated reactor core got into contact with the rushing water and caused a steam explosion. The same thing happened at Chernobyl, except worse because they were actually running an experiment without supervision.

Anyhow not that I've thought of it, it is entirely possible that Klein fields can act as a neutron poison. Based on the observed output of Wave Force Armor we can conclude that a proximity blast will probably not be sufficient to saturate the Klein Field.

Okay so let's do a little math here.

Spoiler for boring math stuff:

Using Schwarzchild's relation we have

    2GM
R = ---
    c^2

Where R is the radius of the black hole, M is the mass of the black hole, G is the gravitational constant, and c is the speed of light.

Doing a little algebra we get

    Rc^2
M = ---
    2G

So now for a given radius we can calculate the mass in a black hole. Let's take the ones 401 fired at Haruna and Kirishima, since the diameter of those are very roughly the length of the ships themselves. Wikipedia gives the length of Haruna at 222m.

Using R = 222 m, c = 300,000,000 m/s, and G = 6.673e-11 m^3 * kg^-1 * s^-2 we arrive at

1.497e+29 kg

Okay that's a really silly number. Maybe you are on to something here

I know that the reactor core itself melts.
Yet that doesn't stop the rest of the reactor from explodin, which it also did.
According to the news a small nuclear mushroom was sighted too.
I'm aware the explosion itself was probably not nuclear, yet the reactor exploded. Thats not the point though, the point is that a radiation got carried all the way to france.

As for the black hole:
Yeah, its definitely some kind of spatial anomaly, but blake holes are unlikely, especially since the way they absorb things looks a lot different from what we have seen in both anime and manga.

Originally Posted by DLRevan

Military doctrine does not factor fallout as a strategic consideration except in terms of territory denial.

In this case however it does matter.
if you need to irradiate a good piece of land to sink the entire fog fleet you are better off not sinking it at all.
And should a single country think they can be inconsiderate towards the others and just do it on their own they'd be the target of several missiles themselves.

I remember that one movie, forgot its name, where that US-submarine arrives in austrialia, which is actually the last non-irradiated place in the world.
The movie ends with the entire country taking cynide capsules when a nuclear cloud is heading for them thus ending humanity.

Originally Posted by Tim yy

Lol, the Nuke debate is Heating up DUM DUM DUM...(peeps trying to calculate the mass of a black hole?)

That was only slightly related.
The point of the calculation he did was to check whether corrosive torpedoes use black holes on impact.
So its more an actual calculation of fog technology.