2008-07-27, 12:19 | Link #1121 |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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I think, ultimately, all humans need a reason to live, a meaning to their existence. Some find it through religion, others find it through a simple faith in humanity. I'm agnostic, but I can also probably describe myself as a secular humanist. I believe in humanity's capacity to do good. I believe that that the times can bring out the best in us, just as easily as it can bring out the worst in us.
I believe that many theists make the mistake of thinking that, without God, humans are doomed to meaningless evil. I think, on the other hand, that history provides ample examples of societies that thrive without paying much heed to God. This is part of the reason why I'm fascinated with the religious aspects of Japanese culture, the ethos and pathos that led to highly thoughtful anime such as Haibane Renmei and Spirited Away. For atheists who triumphantly dismiss religion as belief in silly fairy-tales, I think it's worth asking what they find meaningful in life. I've walked the path before, and I've become aware that, if you're not careful, it'd lead to a hollow life devoid of meaning. If life is meaningless, what's keeping me from jumping off the roof right away? If I'm afraid to die, it ought to mean I want to live, but what am I living for? Theists find their meaning from God. For atheists, the challenge is a lot greater. You have to define everything from scratch. What's good, what's evil. What is worth celebrating, what should be condemned. As such, the onus is on an atheist to be more open-minded than theists. You need to be, because it's useful to learn from "best practises" in the personal quest to find your own way. I found mine, I think, some time ago. It wasn't something that came in a moment of epiphany. It was more of a gradual realisation, about things that are important to me. And, through that realisation, I noticed that belief in God wasn't necessary. God, to me, is just another point of view, another opinion about the nature of existence. Like all opinions, it can be challenged. So, my advice to people who like to make sport of religions, I issue this challenge first — have you examined your own disbelief? Always criticise yourself before criticising others. That is a good way to learn, I find. Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2008-07-27 at 12:29. |
2008-07-27, 13:16 | Link #1122 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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To clarify, the quote I put forth earlier (""governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed") is derived from the official Catechism of the Catholic Church (which also has many close connection with Protestant doctrine: the Catholic commandment states that one must not kill, whereas the early Protestant commandments clarified that one must not murder, but both frown upon acts of aggression). The Decalouge, of course, exemplifies that any act of murder is a capital sin that must be punished, and the Noahide Laws literally force the death penalty for all those who commit the act of murder. So, from these basic facts, I feel more than safe to generalize that war is bad.
Last edited by james0246; 2008-07-27 at 13:52. |
2008-07-27, 13:38 | Link #1123 | |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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However I do realize that many people find peace in themselves through spiritual or religious beliefs as you have said. I have no intention to ever take away something like that. And heck, you never know that they may actually be correct.
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2008-07-27, 13:42 | Link #1124 | ||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2008-07-27, 15:19 | Link #1125 | |||||||
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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But I do not see why that should bar people from having a discussion. Quote:
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It does not mean that God could not justify a war, but since he did not specifically mention a war, it is not a concern for me to ponder whether a war is divinely justified or not. So whether or not Bush's war (or the Crusades, or any other conflict) is divinely justified is irrelevant. Jesus told us to love each other. But wars happen and there are other justifications people can use for them. Did God let it happen? Yes, otherwise, it would not happen. Did God justify it? I would not know for sure until I meet him in Heaven, although I'm leaning on the answer being no for most wars based on the teachings of Jesus. |
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2008-07-27, 15:50 | Link #1126 | ||||||||
Gregory House
IT Support
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Just to clarify my position:
I am not saying we should not understand and interpret the Bible. If you got that from my words, it was either my poor phrasing or your misunderstanding. The fact that it was written a long time ago is more than reason enough to consider a much more careful study of the Bible, and not simply absorb it literally. Quote:
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And either way, that's besides the point. Science and history deal with issues completely unrelated to religion. If you can't separate those two, then you have Creationists and their wacky (and somewhat dangerous, as proved by some school boards in the US) ideas. Quote:
Besides, by the time we can do a recollection of what happened during the Gospels, the Romans had already embraced Christianity and were taking advantage of its popularity, so it still doesn't disprove my point. Quote:
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I really don't understand how everyone got the idea that I didn't support making an effort to understand people of the past. However, understanding people of the past also means understanding how much has society in general progressed since then. Even coming from me, a Marxist, capitalism is much, much better for the collective whole than what the monarchy of biblical times was. Quote:
That's what means trying to understand the Bible.
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2008-07-27, 16:19 | Link #1127 |
Banned
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Trinidad.....anyone get me out of here !
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The bible was not written by Jesus himself but by his followers so who knows what crap that could've put in there. We don't know what kind of people they are and how they've been brought up. Who knows if the bible is written by those people even. All of this can be a big illusion. Back then and up to this day, how true or false can the bible be ?
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2008-07-27, 16:22 | Link #1128 | |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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2008-07-27, 17:37 | Link #1129 | |
is this so?
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Gradius Home World
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A belief that doesn't help me reach my goals, it's a belief that I don't need. *used to be a Catholic but I've thrown religion out of my life years ago after graduating college.
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Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2008-07-27 at 19:51. |
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2008-07-27, 18:17 | Link #1130 | |||
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But your whole argument boils down to: Whatever bad things were acceptable then is no longer acceptable in today's society. If that is what you meant to say, then I don't see what the problem is. The way God deals with people have changed throughout the Bible, leading into modern times. It's called dispensation. Christians were not asked to kill non-believers, quite the opposite actually. And no one was told to pillage, rape, etc. Whatever bad things people do in the name of God nowadays is unfortunate, but it's not a case to blame Christianity itself. They have simply misused it. There is a distinction between what God gave to specific people in the Bible and what God gave to all of us now. Quote:
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2008-07-27, 19:14 | Link #1131 | ||||
Gregory House
IT Support
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I don't have a problem with people believing whatever they might. I cannot say I'm free of any sort of irrational belief--I am but a man, after all. But putting things into perspective and questioning whether things are really what they appear to be demonstrates intelligence. I have a lot of Christian friends, and our friend Kyuusai right here is the perfect example of a level-headed Christian who manages to be devout and critical at the same time. Quote:
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2008-07-27, 20:27 | Link #1132 | |||
Every word must conjure
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After all, reading both the Old & New Testaments should allow one to see the whole Bible in context: the Old Testament points towards the coming of the Messiah/ Saviour & the New Testament describes His coming. Feel free to disagree with me on this point because, again, many people have different thoughts on continuity. He is also probably trying to refer to a passage in the Gospel of Matthew where Jesus talks to His disciples on wars & rumours of wars in the future - which would be an attempt to answer the (yet unresolved) question of whether modern warfare is divinely-ordained. Quote:
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2008-07-27, 21:03 | Link #1133 | |||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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2008-07-27, 23:20 | Link #1134 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Sometimes.. the meaning of life is a good lunch and laying under a tree in the meadow while the breeze trips over you. Just being able to be *aware* of that feeling is sufficient meaning.
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2008-07-28, 00:17 | Link #1137 | |||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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The Meaning Of Lifetm doesn't have to be complicated. What's the use of complex teachings if no one can understand it, much less put it to practise? Be content. That gives valid meaning to life, as I see it. Knowing this simple truth, however, is one thing. Living its reality, is another thing altogether. For a start, what does it mean to "enjoy life"? Someone intent on self-gratification to the exclusion of all else is also enjoying life. But is he truly happy? Quote:
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2008-07-28, 00:20 | Link #1138 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
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I am a believer in science, who religiously believes in evolution and global warming >>> really. Since this is on topic, you should check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...3481305829426D |
2008-07-28, 00:42 | Link #1139 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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As we get older, the desires that originally held us over tend to become less meaningful (not that being older necessarily makes one wiser or somehow better than a younger person, rather our perspectives simply change as we age). Both of you are still young, so the lack of a specific meaning, or searching for a specific meaning, does not currently seem important. But, as you age, you might find that your accomplishments, whatever they may be, may not live up to your original aspirations, hopes, and dreams. It is then that these question concerning meaning really matter, and an answer becomes important for further emotional and mental development. This answer could be as simple as living for your family (your wife or husband and your sons and or daughters) or it could become complex as you seek to establish a record of your existence in the annals of history. Then again, you could simply turn to religion or all of the above . Suffice to say, the question of meaning will matter eventually, especially as a way of creating and shaping an identity. |
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2008-07-28, 00:58 | Link #1140 | |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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I guess you are implying that life can have several meanings. I can make some grand hypothesis on what is meaningful, but it is probably wrong. I do not know if anything is meaningful. Nothing has meaning to me. I live simply because I do not desire death. I only have one life as far as I know so I might as well try to enjoy it though. To me the idea of existence is just a sick little joke.
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not a debate, philosophy, religion |
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