The Genderbending of Haruhi Suzumiya [Spoilers Aplenty]

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Miraploy

Oh god, please don't. Linkin Park. *facepalms.

Erm... see, even though they have the same vocalist, they sound TOTALLY different. Also, I hate Linkin Park.

Also, rap, hip hop, etc are exactly the sort of things Haruki listens to, so it actually fits pretty well.

[Miraploy]

Additional Question:

Why are the avatars now red? The colors of the avatars are not a gender thing. The blue is to show that they're non-evil, or even to some extent non-threatening because of our connotations red with demons or oni.

Also, in the same post you call it both Closed Space and Sealed Reality. Please pick one and stick with it.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=9082

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Miraploy

Additional Question:

Why are the avatars now red? The colors of the avatars are not a gender thing. The blue is to show that they're non-evil, or even to some extent non-threatening because of our connotations red with demons or oni.

Also, in the same post you call it both Closed Space and Sealed Reality. Please pick one and stick with it.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=9082

Red doesn't mean "evil", just "angry" or "feisty". Whereas Haruhi's avatars are created from a more sad or disappointed melancholy, Haruki's are fueled by a more angry form of melancholy, hence the color. The fire of the espers is a more calming blue as a result.

It's a design choice.

Also, don't order me what to do like that, please. I made a mistake, and I'll fix it.

By the way, you're a Republican too, aren't you?

[Miraploy]

I don't understand why you're changing Haruhi's character? Are males supposed to be angrier than females?

Also, don't order me what to do like that, please. I made a mistake, and I'll fix it.

Sorry haha, I guess I adopted an editorial tone. But since you volunteered to be the scribe...

By the way, you're a Republican too, aren't you?

I'm an Obama Republican. What about it?

[ClockWorkAngel]

Males have more testosterone than females, this tends to make them more aggressive, angrier? Perhaps. Haruki is a rude guy, he can be compared to a spoiled child and such.

There's so many ways to tell you why, he is, but for now can't we just agree that it's part of his charm? Or lack of?

[stubby42]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvIWQkxyeJg

Couldnt decide where to post this because it fits into two topics but heres a gender bent version of the end theme Hare Hare Yukai, its actually pretty decent.

[xkazex]

The youtube link seems to be dead.

Isn't Obama Democratic?

Typical teenage males are aggressive individuals, but haruki is no where near being an average male teenager. Supremely aggressive?

[stubby42]

Ok fixed it.

[Miraploy]

Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel

Males have more testosterone than females, this tends to make them more aggressive, angrier? Perhaps. Haruki is a rude guy, he can be compared to a spoiled child and such.

There's so many ways to tell you why, he is, but for now can't we just agree that it's part of his charm? Or lack of?

This is widely out of character. Are males incapable of being melancholic? Haruhi is also rude, spoiled, etc with all appending charm, but her particular situation sets her up to be sad and disappointed at the mundanity of life. Making Haruki angry instead of melancholic would be a completely arbitrary character switch which serves no purpose except to interfere with the fidelity of the character!

[stubby42]

By simply saying its all testosterone your saying that were the sum of our parts (no pun intended) which is rediculous. Besides its well established that Haruhi has gone through a very large number of girlfriends but he ended the relationship because hes disatisfied with them because their too normal. If it were all testosterone he would be sticking around until he got some and as far as I'm aware thats never been suggested (though I am new to gender bending).

[Ithekro]

I'm trying to remember if we had this conversation back in April or March...and some 300+ pages ago?

But since it has been so long, it might stand to evaluate where Haruki is verses his female counterpart, Haruhi.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Miraploy

I'm an Obama Republican. What about it?

Nevermind, just my sense of humor.

Originally Posted by Miraploy

Sorry haha, I guess I adopted an editorial tone. But since you volunteered to be the scribe...

I consider myself an editor, actually, not a writer.

Originally Posted by xkazex

Typical teenage males are aggressive individuals, but haruki is no where near being an average male teenager. Supremely aggressive?

Bingo.

Originally Posted by Miraploy

This is widely out of character. Are males incapable of being melancholic? Haruhi is also rude, spoiled, etc with all appending charm, but her particular situation sets her up to be sad and disappointed at the mundanity of life. Making Haruki angry instead of melancholic would be a completely arbitrary character switch which serves no purpose except to interfere with the fidelity of the character!

He's still melancholic, but it's more of a frustrated melancholy than a disappointed melancholy.

Males respond to the same stimuli differently than females, which is the entire point of this project.

Look at it this way: In the original, Kyon is interested in Haruhi because of her hidden, vulnerable side (it's a moe thing). That clearly doesn't work in our rewrite, as guys aren't supposed to have those kind of feelings, at least in fiction. So here, his hidden side is that he's actually a decent person, in contrast to his overbearing, loud nature.

Interestingly, it takes a lot more to make him truly angry than it does to make Haruhi angry, which I kind of point out in Chapter 7.

And I gotta say, wow, you're more of a fascist than Discreet is. The differences in character were decided like a few hundred pages ago, by the way.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

I'm trying to remember if we had this conversation back in April or March...and some 300+ pages ago?

But since it has been so long, it might stand to evaluate where Haruki is verses his female counterpart, Haruhi.

See above.

I might as well write up my interpretation of the characters and their differences from the original... post coming soon.

[Miraploy]

Originally Posted by xkazex

Typical teenage males are aggressive individuals, but haruki is no where near being an average male teenager. Supremely aggressive?

Bingo

Sexist and irrelevant. Haruhi herself is supremely aggressive. Her avatar is blue.

He's still melancholic, but it's more of a frustrated melancholy than a disappointed melancholy.

Haruki/hi is/are both. I don't think this is an arguable distinction. The rest is just semantics.

Look at it this way: In the original, Kyon is interested in Haruhi because of her hidden, vulnerable side (it's a moe thing). That clearly doesn't work in our rewrite, as guys aren't supposed to have those kind of feelings, at least in fiction. So here, his hidden side is that he's actually a decent person, in contrast to his overbearing, loud nature.

This analysis is somewhere between dead wrong and supremely sexist. So Kyon's attraction to Haruhi has nothing to do with her eccentricies, her way of mastering everything she attempts, her looks, her charisma and her strength? It's because she's vulnerable?

I mean, that kind of assumption is in itself a pretty darn huge value judgement made by you for the rest of the community, one which I obviously don't share, but then you add some statement about guys not having those kind of feelings, and then I get the message that you're sexist against both sexes.

Interestingly, it takes a lot more to make him truly angry than it does to make Haruhi angry, which I kind of point out in Chapter 7.

Yet another arbitrary (and sexist, so I guess according to you females are more emotional huh) out of character element?

And I gotta say, wow, you're more of a fascist than Discreet is.

If by facist you mean disagreeing with how you're taking a beloved character and making her/him into an abomination (I exaggerate, but only a little), then I guess I am.

The differences in character were decided like a few hundred pages ago, by the way.

Decided wrongly by the looks of it. I agree with Ithekro, you should open the floor up to a rediscussion. The decisions that were made, and which I'm only getting an inkling of, seems to be pretty radical.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Miraploy

*snip*

Let's address all these issues at once, shall we?

Nowhere did I say that males do NOT have those kind of feelings in real life, but male characters in fiction traditionally do not.

The red thing was a design choice. No one really argued, so I went with it. Red fits males better than blue anyway.

Yes, Kyon is attracted to Haruhi's vulnerable side. He is also attracted to her spunky, engergetic, childish side, (like many other characters are) but you may notice that he focuses on Mikuru more because he wants to feel like a chivalric hero... he's mentioned before that he wishes Haruhi would act more like Mikuru, and it's that part of her that he is really attracted to.

Men are actually more emotional than women, but it's expected of them to hide and control it, whereas women can get away with being more emotional because it's what's expected of them. Double Standard.

Again, I love how you think you can tell people who've been here from the start what to do with a fan project. It's not up to you.

Furthermore, since Vol. 1 is pretty much done, we already have a base personality for the characters. It's simply too late to change anything now.

[Ithekro]

Remember: intellegent debate is fine. Flaming (aside from beanbrew's DFC obsession) is discouraged. And beanbrew's obsession flaming has been done to death already.

Another thing to remember is that part of the characteristics are based on existing images and comics of the Haruki character made while or before the project went into high gear. Also several things are still based on Japanese concepts of civil life dispite some fairly Westernized flare in the writing.

Also there was a time when we'd go through 20 pages in a day of posts. A lot was discussed, but some things were probably missed.

[xkazex]

It sounds like a fight and demands to be compromise rather than a happy discussion about the project. Drink some tea and calm down.

[Tyabann]

Okay, here goes. I'm going to do a little treatise on the character differences for the major characters, so...

Haruki Suzumiya vs Haruhi Suzumiya:

I've already said most of this, but the traits that make Haruhi moe simply do not work for a male character. Her hidden vulnerability, her emo-ness... it doesn't quite work, because that's not how males are expected by society to behave.

Of course, Haruki doesn't behave how males are expected to behave either, but...

For Haruki's personality, we took elements of Gurren Lagann's Kamina, Ouran High's Tamaki, and School Rumble's Harima, and mixed them together, injecting a bit of Haruhi's Jerk With A Heart of Gold nature. What we got was an overbearing, loud control freak of a delinquent with a fetish for costumes and a passion for the power of MAN, but also with a softer, nicer side that only really shows up when someone he actually cares about is in trouble, as cliche as that sounds.

He also has elements of a male Tsundere, due to his strong attraction to Kyon-chan that he refuses to address, though it's more subtle than most. (Of course, all Tanigawa's characters have the whole emotional deniability thing going on, so...)

The only major problem with genderbending Haruhi is the reactions of his classmates in junior high to his odd behavior. Haruhi only avoided being beaten up because she was a girl, but Haruki has no such luck. So, in order to avoid him being pummeled every day, I simply had to make him bigger than everyone else, and, as a result, Haruki is the tallest male character in the cast, much like Harima Kenji. This, in turn, has contributed to Haruki thinking himself as better than everyone else.

Different stimuli, different reactions, different person. See what I mean?

In closing, Haruki is probably the most different from his original, given (again) that a lot of Haruhi's personality traits don't quite work as a male character.

Haruki would be voice acted by Katsuyuki Konishi, and uses "ore" to refer to himself.


Kyon-chan/Kyonko vs Kyon:

Conversely, when Kyon is flipped, he becomes extremely moe. Her snarky, cold attitude towards everyone automatically makes her a Tsundere, which in turn led to her character design... a short, flat chested little girl.

The reason for the ponytail should be obvious.

Kyon-chan is simply Kyon, but more feminine. That's pretty much it. In addition, some of Haruhi's cuter behaviors are now attributed to Kyon-chan. Again, pretty much it.

Most of the differences in events revolving around her are changed simply because she is female, not because of any personality differences. Double Standard.

Kyon-chan would be voiced by Maaya Sakamoto, and uses "boku" to refer to herself.


Yuuki Nagato vs Yuki Nagato:

The only differences (currently) are gender, although Yuuki is now relatively tall. Again, it's more Double Standard that dictates plot changes than anything else. However, changes in personality will become more apparent as Vol. 4 approaches.

Yuuki would be voiced by Hiroshi Kamiya, and uses "watashi" to refer to himself.


Mitsuuru Asahina vs Mikuru Asahina:

Conversely, the larger difference between these two is personality, not plot.

Mikuru is simply a static doormat with no plot relevance, whereas Mitsuuru is going to grow and change throughout the series, thanks to Haruki's "Manliness Project". Being male, (again Double Standard) Mitsuuru protests things a lot more, and at least attempts to assert himself. It doesn't work, but at least he tries. His effeminacy, however, is played exclusively for laughs by both the plot and Haruki.

Unlike Mikuru, who isn't so much as attracted to Kyon as she is dependent, Mitsuuru is smitten with Kyon-chan to the point where he'd gladly jump her from the word “go”, yet his mission and his perception of the events of Melancholy are inhibiting him, explaining his current behaviour. As a result of never taking any initiative, he grows up to become Big Mitsuuru, who's even more obsessed with Kyon-chan, in a way that resembles ido worship, though he covers it up with irony.

Mitsuuru would be voiced by Megumi Ogata, and goes from using "boku" to using "ore" over time.


Itsuko Koizumi vs Itsuki Koizumi:

Little difference here, except for being more "girly" and having an obsession with cute clothes, as an extra personality quirk, mostly for kicks. As with most of the other characters, the only real differences are in minor quirks and the dreaded Double Standard. Also, she exudes the "rich, pretty onee-sama" personality type.

Oh, and the yaoi undertones are of course changed to yuri undertones.

Itsuko would be voiced by Kikuko Inoue, and uses "atashi" to refer to herself.

I will bring up the minor characters later when I have the time...

[xkazex]

Whoa super specific!

Kudos kaios for your hard work.

[Miraploy]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Let's address all these issues at once, shall we?

Yes we shall. lol.

Nowhere did I say that males do NOT have those kind of feelings in real life, but male characters in fiction traditionally do not.

I didn't say you said males do NOT have those kind of feelings in real life, but you're saying Kyon doesn't have a vulnerable side? And isn't the male Mikuru ALL vulnerable? Your argument doesn't hold water.

The red thing was a design choice. No one really argued, so I went with it. Red fits males better than blue anyway.

I don't disagree that it was a design choice. I didn't think you meant to type blue but accidentally typo'ed red. The point is that it's a choice made on the basis of series of bad judgements. Red fits males? And blue doesn't? Either we grew up on different planets or I'm color blind.

But you're either changing your position or dodging the question. Your original point was that the male Haruki is angrier than her female counterpart. Since we're no longer arguing this point I guess we've demonstrated how arbitrary and incorrect that statement is. Since your original justification for the color change has been refuted, for the love of god please change it back.

Yes, Kyon is attracted to Haruhi's vulnerable side. He is also attracted to her spunky, engergetic, childish side, (like many other characters are) but you may notice that he focuses on Mikuru more because he wants to feel like a chivalric hero... he's mentioned before that he wishes Haruhi would act more like Mikuru, and it's that part of her that he is really attracted to.

Yes, Kyon is attracted to to all parts of Haruhi. And you're right, he does often say that he feels the urge to protect Mikuru. But that's probably the reason why his relationship with Mikuru is so superficial, and why he's refusing to admit his attraction to Haruhi. He is attracted to Haruhi because of her strength, of her charisma, etc. But he, because he wants to feel like a manly man, doesn't want to admit to himself that a strong woman is attractive.

Your focus then on Haruhi's 'vulnerable' side waters down the reason why Kyon's relationship with Haruhi is so complicated! If all Kyon cared about Haruhi is her vulnerabilities then it makes Haruhi into a Mikuru clone in his eyes. It's clearly not the case. It's not too much to say that everyone has a hard side and a softer side, and Kyon/ko may be attracted to both. Ahh, but your distinction is still sexist and inappropriate.

Men are actually more emotional than women, but it's expected of them to hide and control it, whereas women can get away with being more emotional because it's what's expected of them. Double Standard.

So then you actually agree with me. If men are actually more emotional, why is it that it takes more to anger Haruki?! You've either contradicted yourself or just destroyed your own argument. If you think men are more emotional, then it should be the opposite of what you just written! This has nothing to do with societal expectations of Haruki's emotions, it's all about Haruki's emotions as is.

And of course there's a double standard. That's the whole point of the project, to apply the double standard to a different-sexed version of our character and see what happens. That's where all the lulz comes from, right? But if instead of applying the double standard to a different sexed version of our character, you alter the character, then you ruin the entire point!

Again, I love how you think you can tell people who've been here from the start what to do with a fan project. It's not up to you.

Furthermore, since Vol. 1 is pretty much done, we already have a base personality for the characters. It's simply too late to change anything now.

I don't think I can tell anyone what to do. But I do think that if you want this project to recieve more validation than any one of the myriad fanfics of questionable value you should be extremely open to opposing opinions, regardless of however late you think it is. Anyway what I'm asking for are relatively minor, it really won't take that long. Besides, the places in the text where the minutae of character that we're arguing over right now are relevant, are few.

[Miraploy]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

For Haruki's personality, we took elements of Gurren Lagann's Kamina, Ouran High's Tamaki, and School Rumble's Harima, and mixed them together, injecting a bit of Haruhi's Jerk With A Heart of Gold nature. What we got was an overbearing, loud control freak of a delinquent with a fetish for costumes and a passion for the power of MAN, but also with a softer, nicer side that only really shows up when someone he actually cares about is in trouble, as cliche as that sounds.

Does anyone think we should have a Haruki who's simply Haruhi, except more masculine, and apply the double standard for the lulz rather than create a whole new character from an amalgamation of anime tropes and then have the double standards be a non-factor?

Though you may not care, but I can tell you right now that I'm not interested in some OC you created and then slapped the label Haruki on, I read this for Haruhi. If you're going to take on the responsibility of being the editor then you should respect the character (as well as edit more carefully, I mean the whole closed space/seal reality thing wasn't the only obvious mistake I spotted).