Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Justin_Brett]

But then she and Veyron just stop acting like that when they're interacting with the other Hucks. It's weird.

I mean, granted, every group has had someone for the audience to dislike (Precia/Arf for like one episode, Vita, Quattro), but here it's kinda reaching.

(I'd also point out a lot of those figures were, well, kinda crazy)

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Enter moral ambiguity. Every other Nanoha villain when they changed went from 'oh, look how horrible they are' to 'oh, they're not so bad after all' and stayed there. The Hucks keep swinging back and forth, which makes it hard to classify them.

Pretty much this. And yes, it's frustrating as hell. Usually after the drop of the "freaudian excuse" of the bad guys in each season of Nanoha, said bad guys becaome "good" soon after, or at least become less "evil". Even after their "protect our family" excuse is revealed the Hucks are pretty much the same petulant hero killers, just with some new "hints" here and there, and when said hints are finally catching the attention of the audience then BAM! they're dicks again xDU.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

But then she and Veyron just stop acting like that when they're interacting with the other Hucks. It's weird.

Because the other Hucks are not their enemies. Just because they're extreme assholes to their enemies doesn't mean they have to be assholes to their allies as well. Many villains in history still had families they loved.

[Nvis]

Curren seems like a killer, busty-version of Isis to me.

[Fluegel]

Originally Posted by Nvis

Curren seems like a killer, busty-version of Isis to me.

MY OWN CLO-....eh I'm sure everyone knows that meme by now.

Actually Nanoha has too many clones . It's at what, 3 or 4 now? more if you want to count the Materials and Dark pieces. Maybe Nanoha=Momoko with her hair tied, but that's just genetics.

And yes Uno the card game. Just look at those eyes. The eyes of...some sort of magical cheating girl thing.



I'm also inclined to believe she's good at card counting. (in my dreams, and my heart....)

Justified? You say that like her views are all automatically incorrect. I know you guys like to look for flaws in the heroes now, but I don't even know what you're getting at there.

More like everyone. Even characters I love.

<3 <3 <3 Signum, and I don't have any views on Cypha either way, but by no means do I think she "Cheated" her or was ripped off. You don't go fighting someone with a sword specifically meant to send you to hell with a device from a thousand years ago.

Also love Shamal, even though I think she'll eventually turn into one of those crazy middle aged ladies with like 20 cats around the house.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Fluegel

<3 <3 <3 Signum, and I don't have any views on Cypha either way, but by no means do I think she "Cheated" her or was ripped off. You don't go fighting someone with a sword specifically meant to send you to hell with a device from a thousand years ago.

Well, it worked very well before against very "modern" enemies, apparently the "thousand years old" was part of the "antient equals powerful" trend but suddenly Tsuzuki subverts the trope by making Laevateinn suddenly useless xDU.

While my main loved character just got put on a bus, i'm at least happy that my predictions on my third loved one are apparently correct, Subaru returned to kick some ass and doing some "plot important" stuff xD.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

It probably was attacked again, just off screen. Cypha was still standing right there, after all.

Yeah. Sure. And it's probable that Teana's piloting an Eva right now. Hey, we don't see it!

Show, don't tell.

Originally Posted by Keroko

On the ice spell, I'd say it was the safeguard. Hayate did say that the spell was designed to shatter after it hit, so when Hayate lost control the safety kicked in and destroyed the spell to prevent collateral damage.

This makes more sense, I guess.

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Try putting the shoe on the other foot. Imagine the Huckebein family were the protagonists of this manga, and the big bad Bureau comes and attacks them in an attempt to capture them. I bet a lot more people would be supportive of them then.

Not for me. The Celestial Beings were the protagonist of Gundam 00, yet I sincerely hate their guts. I always cheer whenever they almost get beaten, especially if the name Smirnov was involved.

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Honestly I think people get too hung up on the "They kill people" thing, especially when they've gone so far to show that they try not to kill when they can avoid it.

Life is a pretty big deal. And a million (or a dozen, in the nuns' case) is not a statistic.

What's the reason DeVille offered them to get out of his way? Simple. They can fight back, if only barely; they're a hassle. Unarmed civilians, on the other hand, can't. The TSAB personnel has to much fang to be a good lifestock.

[Akiyoshi]

In the end, anyone not eclipse infected is just "cattle" to them xD.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Well, it worked very well before against very "modern" enemies, apparently the "thousand years old" was part of the "antient equals powerful" trend but suddenly Tsuzuki subverts the trope by making Laevateinn suddenly useless xDU.

Nah, that was just a case of "the more ancient, the better."

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

And yet in other cases, such as when Guts slaughters a ton of people, the killer is touted as being an ultra cool bad ass.

Before the Eclipse, he was merely a mercenary who did his business. Dirty, yes, but still business. Also, yes, Wyald, now Wyald totally deserved it.

After the Eclipse... Man, have you seen the THINGS he is fighting? I mean, once you have seen Apostles like Wyald, one can't possibly not root for Guts. And then there is the Emperor of Kushan, oh god that guy.

[00-Raiser]

Yeah, Guts takes on his share of monsters, but remember that time he killed that kid during that political assassination?

Anyways, it's a problem when you lump all the Huckebein together. Justin says they're being portrayed inconsistently, but they are all different characters with different personalities. Just because Cypha might be irredeemable, doesn't mean that Deville and the others are too.

Regarding the nuns, we don't know the full story about what happened there, so you should reserve judgement.

Well, one thing I like about them is how they aren't despairing about their situation like Thoma is. They've accepted their lot in life, set up their own rules and structure and just roll with it.

They don't pull the "woe is me" card either. When asked if they killed some people, rather than going "The virus made me do it! It's not my fault!" they're all "Yeah, so?" Nice to see such frankness.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Regarding the nuns, we don't know the full story about what happened there, so you should reserve judgement.

It's been 14 chapters - more than a year. It's our nature to form opinions, one can only withhold judgment for so long, and I don't have that big of imagination.

What I do know is that there's more proof on them seeing people as nothing more than cattle then there's any proof on those sob story (boo hoo) we've yet to see.

Well, one thing I like about them is how they aren't despairing about their situation like Thoma is. They've accepted their lot in life, set up their own rules and structure and just roll with it.

Well perhaps that's where our main difference lie. You like this kind of people. But for shonen stories I prefer the kind, selfless ones, the one who cares about others even if it means killing themselves. Folks like Nanoha, or Negi Springfield, or even Nana from Elfen Lied (y'know, the one who never succumbed to the supposed Diclonii homicidal urges). In short, yes I have far more sympathy for Thoma.

And comparing with Guts (seinen) is pointless since they belong to the different genre. Almost everyone is f__ked up there. Was that the same case with Nanoha (shounen+shoujo)? Is this the same kind of universe with Berserk, where kindness never pays? That there was never anyone to do a good deed an lived to tell the tale? Because if the answer is YES, then I'm gonna expect this kind of line at the end of the story:

Random Huck: "I was just trying to live!"
Nanoha: "So were your victims." BANG!

[00-Raiser]

Shonen and Seinen are demographics, not genres.

Strictly speaking, Nanoha has always been Seinen.

[Tiresias]

Let me correct myself then. I was talking about the tropes (or whatever the terms might correctly be; feel free to straighten it) generally associated with the demographics. Shounen: hot-blooded, defeat means friendship, generally idealistic solution, messianic heroes, etc. Seinen: darker and edgier, crapsack world, shoot the dog moments, byronic heroes, etc. Nanoha might be marketed as seinen, but it has more shounen tropes IMO.

My point was, comparing Berserk and Nanoha is silly because their tone is very different.

[Justin_Brett]

I can understand being a bit cold toward the Bureau in that case, or rude to them, like Arnage is being. But their personalities shouldn't go a complete 180 just because they're interacting with people they don't care for at the moment. I can't really name another Nanoha villain that does that, and you can definitely call it inconsistency.

Yeah. Sure. And it's probable that Teana's piloting an Eva right now. Hey, we don't see it!

Show, don't tell.

This is actually why I disputed that the Hucks had left: they didn't actually show them teleporting away, and now we just have to take random operator's word that they left. I can easily name some things that could have been cut here - that's kind of inexcusable.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

This is actually why I disputed that the Hucks had left: they didn't actually show them teleporting away, and now we just have to take random operator's word that they left. I can easily name some things that could have been cut here - that's kind of inexcusable.

To be fair, i think this is one of the lesser flaws of the Chapters 13-14, finally FORCE have been stopped to show-every-damn-little-bit-of-motion-in-unecessary-and-overlylong-full-detail. For Pete's sake, i can endure the manga not showing the Hucks retreat clearly if that means they will focus on something that matter and do it in fast and fluid pacing xD.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Regarding the nuns, we don't know the full story about what happened there, so you should reserve judgement.

Considering there is absolutely zero indication that someone else might be responsible, I see no reason whatsoever to reserve judgement on that scene.

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Well, one thing I like about them is how they aren't despairing about their situation like Thoma is. They've accepted their lot in life, set up their own rules and structure and just roll with it.

They don't pull the "woe is me" card either. When asked if they killed some people, rather than going "The virus made me do it! It's not my fault!" they're all "Yeah, so?" Nice to see such frankness.

This I agree with. I love me some villains without the pity card.

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

I can understand being a bit cold toward the Bureau in that case, or rude to them, like Arnage is being. But their personalities shouldn't go a complete 180 just because they're interacting with people they don't care for at the moment. I can't really name another Nanoha villain that does that, and you can definitely call it inconsistency.

Cypha doesn't care one bit about Lily, note how she doesn't go psycho on her.

There's a difference between interacting between people you know, people you don't care about, and enemies. There is nothing inconsistent there.

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

This is actually why I disputed that the Hucks had left: they didn't actually show them teleporting away, and now we just have to take random operator's word that they left. I can easily name some things that could have been cut here - that's kind of inexcusable.

See, now that's different, because Lucino is evidence. We know they left because Lucino said they left. By contrast, we have no evidence that Heimdall was cut again after Hayate was stabbed.

[Koveras Alvane]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Curren pretty much exactly mirrored what Cypha did, really, just in one chapter: thrash a character soundly, then act like a jerk about it.

Well, she didn't put Hayate into ICU... I'm just sayin'.

Originally Posted by Fluegel

Also love Shamal, even though I think she'll eventually turn into one of those crazy middle aged ladies with like 20 cats around the house.

Except that the Wolkies don't age (see Vita).

[Justin_Brett]

They act like completely different characters. It doesn't work that way.

And I'd still like to see HOW they left. Did the ship teleport? Did it just fly away? They could have answered these questions, but specifically chose not to. It bugs me.

Also Fluegel, I forgot to ask, but exactly what are Nanoha's views that you dislike? If you're talking about how she trains her pupils, the series itself makes a very good point, and she doesn't exactly shove it down the kid's throats. They chose to be tutored by her.

[Akiyoshi]

I must agree on some points with Fluegel, tough. Since StrikerS Nanoha seems to be a little too full of herself, imposing over other people and acting like she's 100% in the right all the time. That Superman-esque behavior feels a bit strange at first because of the contrast with her 9-year old persona, maybe Tsuzuki was trying to show Nanoha with a more mature behavior but just end making her more prepotent instead, Nanoha mellows a bit during the run of StrikerS, tough(thanks in part to the fact that her base was anhilated and her daughter kidnapped, teaching her a lesson in humility). But apparently "Justice Lord" Nanoha returns in full strenght in FORCE, imposing over everyone with that harsh expresion of hers while suddenly switching it with her "warm" smiling face back and forth. Hope that the recewnt trashing helps to calm down the White Devil again.

Talking about that, i'm the only one that find the new art for Nanoha's "warm smile" a bit creepy? In the past she looked like she was genuinely smiling and trying to cheer up people. Now in FORCE, more specifically the moment when she smiles at Tohma with open arms that weird smile of hers coupled with the out-of-nowhere blushing came out a bit creepy(even feel somehow forced, like if she was planing on stab the kid during a hug xDU). Probably it's only the new artstyle, probably is only the atmosphere or is just that she looks a bit werid trying to be kind on someone while armed to the teeth with RH and the Fortress Mode xDU.

FORCE Nanoha gives me chills o_O