[Manga] Chapter 415 Discussion

[Kakosan]

Originally Posted by james0246

Added to that, I do not know how we are supposed to accept Sasuke's win as anything but villany considering the fact that by defeating HJ, Sasuke has furthered Akatsuki's ultimate goal(s) by one more tail, and Sasuke did it by defeating an "man" who is innocent of doing anything to the Uchiha clan and is merely defending himself against Sasuke (this last part really gets me).

I second you. That is what really bothers me. Since the beggining of this fight, Sasuke was the one who attacked just for the sake of getting a new tail for Akatsuki. Does he know what it really implies? Does he know that he will be the cause of death of someone, just for the sake of power in a criminal organization? Does he know that probably Akatsuki plans to do the same to Naruto? Is he really willling to accept it? The answer to these questions will basically tell if Sasuke is really a mature character or just an idiot with deep mental issues.

I know that every shinobi is bound to kill someday. And the reasons for that are not always the best ones. The question is if Sasuke is just another shinobi that has to obey whatever he is told or someone who really chooses his path. I though Kishi wanted the latter, now I'm confused.

[Animecentred]

Hmmm, is it just me or was that ending incredibly obvious. However i atleast want the Hachibi to be completely destroyed with nothing left afterwards so that the mega destruction jutsu can never be completed. Atleast then the Jutsu would live up to his description.

Yet what will happen is the hachibi using a sheild going down and turning human again, being to weak to move and then having sasuke carry him off. Thereby saving Sasuke's no kill record. I want him to fail so that Madara can kick his EMO ass

[Gamma_Sennin]

Originally Posted by Animecentred

I want him to fail so that Madara can kick his EMO ass

Id enjoy seeing madara period.. he can kick whoever ass he wants.. more development of characters like him and pein would be nice...

one thing of note.. after naruto's nature chakra training and after delightfully blowing away kakuza.. with his fuuton rasengan.. kakashi states that naruto has surpassed him.. and im guessing the senjutsu is naruto's path to surpassing J_Man.. this along with mr sasuke rapid growth in power.. does any1 else think these 15 year olds on some other shiz.. way this going naruto gonna be hokage before his 17th birthday... he be leading a village before he gets laid hmm

[ragnos007]

Originally Posted by Kakosan

If this spoiler is true, then we know that Naruto has another unseen jutsu... "that jutsu" has not appeared yet!

It seems that way. Remember when Naruto and co were leaving Konoha to go save Gaara and J-man said "don't use "that" technique"... I always thought he meant go 4 tails... but now it would seem there is somethign else... maybe something stronger than the fuuten rasengshuriken .... most likely not ...

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by JINBEI

That point is pretty much debunked when we find out that Itachi was trying to protect Konoha from with in the ranks of AK.

I disagree, Itachi has already been shown to "make sacrifices" when he has to. I doubt he has any conscience about killing Jiraiya. As an example, he had no idea that Tsunade would return to the village to save Kakashi from his Tsukiyomi attack.

Itachi was never trying to kill Sasuke, besides Sasuke still got hit by it and used Oro's move to get away from it.

Yes he got hit with it, but there was a way to defend against the attack using a lot less chakra than the 8-tails possess. If it really does burn through everything there should be no way to stop it till its natural lifespan.

The man was the 1st to unlock all the secrets of the MS eye's, not to mention he can some how go intangible and his space time Ninjutus is better then the 4ths.

This is just another example of a defense against something that should burn everything to crisp. And on the topic of Madara, the First Hokage obviously had a method of avoiding it as well.

I think readers are generally upset because Amaretsu is shown to be avoidable using special means. One would think the 2nd strongest Bijuu would possess a special means to defend himself after the build-up he got.

[ragnos007]

Originally Posted by Gamma_Sennin

Id enjoy seeing madara period.. he can kick whoever ass he wants.. more development of characters like him and pein would be nice...

one thing of note.. after naruto's nature chakra training and after delightfully blowing away kakuza.. with his fuuton rasengan.. kakashi states that naruto has surpassed him.. and im guessing the senjutsu is naruto's path to surpassing J_Man.. this along with mr sasuke rapid growth in power.. does any1 else think these 15 year olds on some other shiz.. way this going naruto gonna be hokage before his 17th birthday... he be leading a village before he gets laid hmm

Lol that is so funny and so true... the last part... actually the whole thing... it is true that they are only 15 yrs old...

[aliasxn]

Originally Posted by elusive

invincible? madara lost to the 1st, itachi admitted that he'd likely die fighting jiraiya, sasuke just got his ass kicked. if hachibi had support from a team or if sasuke was alone we'd have a dead uchiha.

Like I said, I already know they lost, but how? Given what we've seen from sharingan, how can anyone possibly defeat it?

as for the bijuu, they are not unstoppable. even the 9 tails was defeated and didn't you see tobi and dd take out a wild bijuu? hidan and kakuzu captured one and do they have the sharingan? the fact hat 7 bijuu/jinchuriki have been caught should tell you they are not "impossibly powerful." you made a false assumption that had no basis in fact given the story thus far.

That's one of Kishimoto's incoherences. If bijuus are not that great then why did the ninja villages fought wars over them? He greatly downplayed the bijuus... At least when Naruto fought Shukaku he didn't really beat it, he just found a way to make it go away. An exploitable weakness, just that. Sasuke overpowered it... He is stronger than Minato+Gama+a bunch of jounins, this at just 15 years of age.

Originally Posted by astayanax

It wasn't just any jutsu. For those who probably didn't follow up on amaterasu; it isn't a natural flame. It is pure black, it can burn without fuel nor oxygen, it can burn anything, even fire, it generates no heat (because lets be serious, something that is as hot as the sun will burn things to a crisp even if it is a mile away from it), and it burns for a specific period of time; no more, no less.

Well, that's my point. Why did Kishimoto even come up with such a ridiculous jutsu in the first place? Sharingan is clearly more powerfull than the bijuus...

Originally Posted by Rahan

Why would it ?
He just one-hit-koed the second strongest entity (8-tails released) of the Narutoverse. Sure he got hurt, but he could have avoided it and won in the blink of an eye if he didn't fool around before.

Since he doesn't know Pein and his eyes have powers over the Kyuubi, he should think he is only second to Madara in the whole Narutoverse and if his opponents live or die depend only of his whims (if he chooses to wink or not. It's not a matter of fighting any more). This chapter confirms what he told Oro. In front of his eyes, everything is crap. The specificities of a jinchiruuki allowed the 8-tails to survive one MS jutsu (Tsukiyomi or whatever genjutsu it was), but not 2.

Exactly.

[Sasuke_Bateman]

Lol for those people who still didn't believe Sasuke defeated Killer Bee. There's a spoiler pic with the Killer Bee face down in a lake (or a pond) lol


He's done for, also Karin back is on fire she seems dead

[Rahan]

So this Amaterasu is indeed a new power.

It's a 2-eyed Amaterasu which allow him to control the strength and extent of the flames.

[Gamma_Sennin]

Originally Posted by aliasxn

He is stronger than Minato+Gama+a bunch of jounins, this at just 15 years of age

Personally i think that a demon beast, outside of its bijuu would be a lot stronger.. as a bijuus power would be limited to the bijuus capablilties itself.. gaara becomes shikaku.. its fair to say shikaku knows how to use the demonic chakra to its fullest where killer bee is still conscious of everything going around him.. the hachibi although still a great force.. its physical container may cause for limits to its power

i still think its unfair to compare sasukes victory to the 4ths, but yea it seems that way..

[Hiking_Bear]

Well, the 9-tails is by far the strongest out of all the bijuu. The 8-tail's horn was able to be cut (by the raikage, i guess?), but even 4-tailed naruto could not be pierced by the sword of Kusanagi. There must be a huge leap in power between the 8-tails and the 9-tails.

[Rahan]

The Gaara who fought Kimimaro and Deidara seemed to be immensely stronger than the Shukaku who briefly fought Naruto and Bunta. And as far as I remember, Shukaku only used Wind Jutsus while Gaara used some hardcore sand (which is what Shukaku seems to be made of) techniques, so I disagree. Deidara also stated the wild bijuus were weaker without a jinchuuriki to control their powers.

Also, it's Shukaku, not Shikaku. Shikaku is Shikamaru's dad.

[Freya]

Wow.....8 tails got killed by Amaterasu? Just like that? Pathetic!!! Wth was the whole point in showing us everything then? Might as well skip the whole battle like the other bijuu fights.

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by Rahan

Deidara also stated the wild bijuus were weaker without a jinchuuriki to control their powers.

I seriously doubt that applies to all Bijuus. He was referring to the fact that this Bijuu in particular was stupid and hence needed a host to fully utilize its ability.

[HiroInazuma]

Originally Posted by Freya

Wow.....8 tails got killed by Amaterasu? Just like that? Pathetic!!! Wth was the whole point in showing us everything then? Might as well skip the whole battle like the other bijuu fights.

It was reinforcing everything we already if you are not the 1st Hokage, the sharingan will own you, if Kishi wanted to make this fight better, he should of ended it 2 chapters ago, the moment Sasuke got stabbed he should of used Tsuyokomi or Amaterasu right away then not much people would have been disappointed I think, cos the major reason people are angry is cos he showed the Hachibi to be so great at first just to be defeated 1 1/2 chapters after he was shown.

Also Vindi I agree cos the Kyuubi doesnt seem the type to just mindlessly rampage, he seems like a wise old fox like the legends of kitsune says, he is the only bijuu that has shown a sense of respect and a almost human personality when the Shukaku came out he seemed like a mindless idiot.

Also with the whole thing about the huge power gap between the Kyuubi and the 8 tails I like to think of it in a pokemon way: Kyuubi: Lvl 100 Hachibi: Lvl 70-80

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

I disagree, Itachi has already been shown to "make sacrifices" when he has to. I doubt he has any conscience about killing Jiraiya. As an example, he had no idea that Tsunade would return to the village to save Kakashi from his Tsukiyomi attack.

While I’m, not going to go into details about this already “dead” topic of Jiraiya and Itachi (Pum intended). The sacrifices Itachi has made are of those who were a treat to the Will of Fire, to Konoha itself. In this case Itachi had no reason to burn Jiriaya there. So I think Killing Jiraiya is not a good example of the reach of what Itachi was capable of doing to safe keep Konoha.

Regarding Kakashi, Itachi didn’t Kill Kakahsi because he choosed not to kill him, this was stated, this in fact is the first hint at Itachi’s real nature. Besides, Itachi also did the Tsukijomy on Sasuke, So those Tsukijomy where not made with Intention to Kill

Yes he got hit with it, but there was a way to defend against the attack using a lot less chakra than the 8-tails possess. If it really does burn through everything there should be no way to stop it till its natural lifespan.

It was stated that Itachi avoided Killing Sasuke, so taking as reference what SAsuke did to survive Amaterasu is moot..

Been this said, Amaterasu is a very strong Jutsu, but I still think Susanoo is far more powerful. Madara already showed that you can survive it.

[Keroko]

*clucks tongue* I'm not happy with this chapter. Not happy at all. But to tell you the truth Sasuke is the last thing bothering me.

What bothers me is the constant nerfing of the Bijuu.

In the first series, the Bijuu were displayed as immense creatures of power. The Kyuubi cost the strongest Hokage his life to seal away, and everybody fears him ever breaking out of his cage. The Ichibi was also displayed as a creature of indominable strength, the sand nin telling us several times that if 'that' awakened, Konoha would be doomed. And it was, almost. The only reason Shukaku was defeated was because his medium was holding him back.

Then along came Shippuuden.

One member of Akatsuki took down Gaara. Okay, sure, after all Gaara was the one fighting, not Shukaku. Two members of Akatsuki took down Yuugo, Jinchuuriki of the Nibi. O-kay, even though she released? Well, I suppose its possible... the Jinchuuriki may still be holding Nibi back after all. Then two Akatsuki defeated a wild Bijuu.

...

...

Wait, come again? They defeated an unsealed Bijuu?

Yes, they did. Apparently Bijuu are 'mindless creatures' who 'cannot control their strength without a Jinchuuriki medium'

Really? That's... odd. Kyuubi doesn't look all that mindless to me. Neither does Shukaku. Sure, Shukaku is eccentric, but he definetely isn't 'mindless' and 'incapable of controling his strength' Okay, so lets assume that was for that Bijuu alone. Okay. Oh, Kyuubi can be controlled by the Sharingan.

...

Huh?

You're telling me that the Kyuubi, a kitsune, a master of illusions, can be mind controlled by some human's fancy eyes?

Yup, and apparently the Shodaime could do the same, only with multiple Bijuu. In fact, he captured a few of them and dispersed them among the countries.

... Okay, momentarilly disregarding the sheer stupidity of giving weapons to people who hate your guts, you mean to tell me that the Shodaime had the abillity to control Bijuu? As in, the Bijuu that caused the person who is called 'the strongest ninja in Konoha' to give his life to seal away?

That's right, and apparently completely unnecisary too, because in this chapter, yet another fully-transformed Jinchuuriki was taken down.

Oh, in a glorious battle that left both parties and the landscape severely scarred?

Well... the winning side did get beat up a little.

.... Why don't I like where this is going?

In the end it took only one move to put him down.

...

...

...

You're serious? One move? One move put down a beast with almost as much tails as the Kyuubi? What happened to the great beasts of destruction? The creatures that were once called 'disasters of nature?' the demons that took the greatest of ninja hundreds of casualties and one of their strongest's life to seal away? The beings who's power was only held back by their containers?

Seriously, screw Sasuke, what about Akatsuki? Akatsuki's reason for gathering the Bijuu grows vaguer and vaguer by the chapter. Why on earth would they want to capture the Bijuu if they themselves are far more powerfull?

Ever since Shippuuden the Bijuu have become weaker by the chapter, I had hoped Sasuke would have defeated the Jinchuuriki with some sheer brilliant tactic rather then just overpower him. A Chuunin Exam Gaara fight a-la Sasuke, so to say. As it stands though, the future looks bleak for Kyuubi. Though I suppose some morbid curiosity inside me is wondering just how hard the nerf bat will hit him in the teeth.

[Black-Cat-Sama]

Originally Posted by aliasxn

That's one of Kishimoto's incoherences. If bijuus are not that great then why did the ninja villages fought wars over them? He greatly downplayed the bijuus... At least when Naruto fought Shukaku he didn't really beat it, he just found a way to make it go away. An exploitable weakness, just that. Sasuke overpowered it... He is stronger than Minato+Gama+a bunch of jounins, this at just 15 years of age.



Well, that's my point. Why did Kishimoto even come up with such a ridiculous jutsu in the first place? Sharingan is clearly more powerfull than the bijuus...

You miss the poont of all of this. Kishi's error isnt in making the Biju weak purposely.. it's making tem a part fo the story so late in the game. Kishi skipped most of the fights probbaly because of time (he didnt have enough time to draw them and get story into it, or it would take too much time to draw and get back into main storyline) and now they are only "weak" because thats the level everyone else is at. It's like DBZ, people were always at one level ( where the biju shoulda been introduced and seen in naruto) where they would get owned by someone with DEMONIC powers or excelled past them (i.e. cell, majin in DBZ) but in naruto pt 2. we are at a point where the old characters are/have been improving and they are main. With akatsuki and all the flashbacks / revelations, kishi had to time to slip crucial biju time in and now Every character has to be improved. So its not the matter of biju's being weak... just everyone else needing to get stronger, for story sake.

Im really disappointed that kishi got rid of taka >,> like this. It's like for all the ways for them to go.. if they had to go, this shouldn't have been it. Karin got burned.. Suigetsu blown up (what was the point of making him want to collect swords...) and Juugo turned into a kid (that looks just like he did when he was an adult lol wtf)....well w/e, everyone here can complain about the story and about how soemthing was portrayed, but fail to see that what Kishi draws/writes goes and we can only do two things.... stop reading or wait until the next chapter =o get over it.

[Nintendo]

someone needs to die, someone from sasukes team, i mean how can you fight something so powerful and be ok....get flames on some random girl and sasuke pats her fire out and shes fine? some killer flames......

why is kimish perfectly fine with killing off good meaningful characters, but keeps around worthless ones that bring nothing to the table?

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Black-Cat-Sama

You miss the poont of all of this. Kishi's error isnt in making the Biju weak purposely.. it's making tem a part fo the story so late in the game.

Ah, have we been reading the same story? Bijuu have central to Naruto ever since the very first page, and they were portrayed as being extremely powerfull throughout the first season. Everyone feared them, everyone cowered in front of their power. The only way they could be defeated was if their Jinchuuriki held them back with weaknesses.

Now? Now even wild Jinchuuriki are no match for the human cast.

Originally Posted by Black-Cat-Sama

Kishi skipped most of the fights probbaly because of time (he didnt have enough time to draw them and get story into it, or it would take too much time to draw and get back into main storyline) and now they are only "weak" because thats the level everyone else is at. It's like DBZ, people were always at one level ( where the biju shoulda been introduced and seen in naruto) where they would get owned by someone with DEMONIC powers or excelled past them (i.e. cell, majin in DBZ) but in naruto pt 2. we are at a point where the old characters are/have been improving and they are main. With akatsuki and all the flashbacks / revelations, kishi had to time to slip crucial biju time in and now Every character has to be improved. So its not the matter of biju's being weak... just everyone else needing to get stronger, for story sake.

Except that the Bijuu in part 1 had already been said and shown to posess powers beyond that. The 'only way' to defeat Kyuubi before it destroyed the village was for the strongest ninja (translation: Stronger then Shodaime) in Konoha to sacrifice his life. The 'only way' to defeat the Ichibi before it destroyed the village (inc. Jounin and Sannin of Akatsuki level) was to wake up its Jinchuuriki.

Shippuuden drastically contradicts part 1 on this part. In part one, stopping a Bijuu meant that the strongest (as in, on the same level or above of the current cast) had to sacrifice their lives, now in part two they actually have to be carefull not to kill one. Even worse, the unstopabillity of the Bijuu has been retconned by giving a few token characters the abillity to control them.