Kanon 2006 (Generic Discussion)

[New/Old]

Agreed. I'm all for allowing opinion through, but if a piece of the reasoning behind that opinion irks me (whether it be a fact that's been misinterpreted or something that just hits me wrong in my head) . I'll try to clear it up or fail at trying to do so. If someone's onto to something that's reasonable and makes sense, then I'll surely leave it alone. That's really all...

Of course. My opinion will always be my opinion. I'm not here to force my opinion on others. I'm only here to clear up things that have become blurred and unrecognizable...

[orion]

Yep, agree with Skane with regards to the torrents. My downloads for Kanon aren't thru scarywater.

[Theowne]

Ah, just watched the AIR TV and movie again....I don't know why, but I didn't particularily care for it the first time around but on a reviewing of it I absolutely love it.....my interest in Kanon and all the cuteness and catchphrases had been dropping but this has made me continue watching, if anything, for the fact that it's the same guys who made AIR.

Not that any should care....

I don't know why anyone is arguing how popular Kanon is. Maybe in direct comparison to the heavy-hitter anime it falls behind, that still makes it, whether you like it or not, more popular then tons and tons of other series. I mean, jeez, as mentioned, there are 6 groups subbing this thing. Six. And for whatever it's worth, Kanon's subforum here is more popular then Death Note's.

[orion]

Plus, one of the torrent sites that I use Kanon has 5 Spanish, 1 German and 1 Finnish group doing subs for it. On the same site, Death Note has 5 Spanish, 4 French, 1 Vietamese, 1 Italian, and 1 German language group doing subs.

Even if it's not at Death Note's level of popularity with mainstream, Kanon still has its fans.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Skane

You do realise that at least 6 groups are fansubbing Kanon, right? Some of which are joint efforts. Death Note is probably the only other anime that has more groups fansubbing it, although their's are less well known.

Originally Posted by Theowne

I don't know why anyone is arguing how popular Kanon is. Maybe in direct comparison to the heavy-hitter anime it falls behind, that still makes it, whether you like it or not, more popular then tons and tons of other series. I mean, jeez, as mentioned, there are 6 groups subbing this thing. Six. And for whatever it's worth, Kanon's subforum here is more popular then Death Note's.

As we all know, the number of groups subbing a show has nothing to do with how popular a show actually is. Kirarin revolution is currently unsubbed and has been in the top 10 in Japan for weeks. Also if we go back, Chrno Crusade/Macross Zero got ~10 groups and only around ~35-40k through torrents.

Originally Posted by Skane

Kanon is also currently the most blogged about anime on English-speaking AnimeBlogs. Been to Danbooru recently? The amount of Kanon-related fanart on it is staggering.

Simple question, but how many blogs aren't? Bloggers are very noisy things on the net as proved by Snakes on a Plane and a few other things. They are able to make a lot of noise and have almost no actual presence in the real world. (SoaP promptly flopped.) I am not trying to say Kanon does not have its own fandom and a very vocal one at that, but according to that ANN poll, it's nowhere as big as the amount of noise makes itself out to be.

Also, the people I know who go to danbooru are the kinds who like ero-game/ero-anime conversions already.

Originally Posted by Skane

Additionally, scarywater is not the only server that hosts torrents. Then again, I'm not going to dispute that Death Note has more downloads. Still, by Kanon's statistics alone, how can one say that it is not popular?

I've rechecked grande's numbers and they already include all trackers. If you used a group's torrent (which you should have if you used bt), you were included. There should be enough of a corollation in this large a population to just look at bittorrent numbers.

Spoiler for Let's just put up a few comparison numbers (All gathered from the respective groups bittorrents, most recent ep with a time of 7-13 days, selected at semi-random )::

Black Blood: 38k
Pumpkin Scissors: 18k
Yoake Cabbage Love: 12k
D.grey man: 42k
Asatte: 16k
Code Geass: 16k
Tokimeki: 10k

Statistical notes: Anything subbed by shinsen had at least 5k dls. Pumpkin scissors has 18k just with one group. Also, these are 1 week stats meaning it is safe to conclude that it only includes fans and not casual downloaders.

Basically, that tells us that Kanon is popular for its genre (as is to be expected given what people say about it in its genre), but its not really breaking out of its genre. Also note that Kanon went through the normal deflation after the first episode. (18k for the first group to release and 18k additional downloads among the other groups equals some total download number below 35k.)

If someone had said it would get ~25k/ week, it wouldn't have been surprising. That is about what I would have expected for <insert popular game that appeals to male otaku>. However, people (in this thread) were claiming it would be the next Haruhi.

[Skane]

Originally Posted by bayoab

As we all know, the number of groups subbing a show has nothing to do with how popular a show actually is. Kirarin revolution is currently unsubbed and has been in the top 10 in Japan for weeks. Also if we go back, Chrno Crusade/Macross Zero got ~10 groups and only around ~35-40k through torrents.

Already stated above.

Simple question, but how many blogs aren't? Bloggers are very noisy things on the net as proved by Snakes on a Plane and a few other things. They are able to make a lot of noise and have almost no actual presence in the real world. (SoaP promptly flopped.) I am not trying to say Kanon does not have its own fandom and a very vocal one at that, but according to that ANN poll, it's nowhere as big as the amount of noise makes itself out to be.

Kanon is number 2 on a poll made by a site that is frequented mainly by English speakers. Not bad for an EGA that barely got any official promoting by Licensors.

Also, the people I know who go to danbooru are the kinds who like ero-game/ero-anime conversions already.

Your assumption, not ours.

I've rechecked grande's numbers and they already include all trackers. If you used a group's torrent (which you should have if you used bt), you were included. There should be enough of a corollation in this large a population to just look at bittorrent numbers.

Spoiler for Let's just put up a few comparison numbers (All gathered from the respective groups bittorrents, most recent ep with a time of 7-13 days, selected at semi-random )::

Black Blood: 38k
Pumpkin Scissors: 18k
Yoake Cabbage Love: 12k
D.grey man: 42k
Asatte: 16k
Code Geass: 16k
Tokimeki: 10k

Statistical notes: Anything subbed by shinsen had at least 5k dls. Pumpkin scissors has 18k just with one group. Also, these are 1 week stats meaning it is safe to conclude that it only includes fans and not casual downloaders.

Basically, that tells us that Kanon is popular for its genre (as is to be expected given what people say about it in its genre), but its not really breaking out of its genre. Also note that Kanon went through the normal deflation after the first episode. (18k for the first group to release and 18k additional downloads among the other groups equals some total download number below 35k.)

How about the people who watch RAWs, non-English fansubs, or Heaven forbid, the TV? English fansubs are merely one part of the greater whole.

If someone had said it would get ~25k/ week, it wouldn't have been surprising. That is about what I would have expected for <insert popular game that appeals to male otaku>. However, people (in this thread) were claiming it would be the next Haruhi.

Again, your assumption. Not ours. It has never been stated by the majority in this thread that Kanon was suppose to be the next Haruhi. People here have been waiting for this REMAKE before SHnY even aired.

Cheers.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

It's always best to be well-versed in many interest than just one. While Kanna's fix-word wasn't exactly something that can be percieved positively...whatever. It's all opinionated in preference. I can see why there are people who thinks Kanon so far isn't what they hoped for (( It's like the mindfuck in Kimi Ga happened at Episode *double digits* instead of....3? )), but at the same time, one should be able to see why many people are hooked, especially if one can find a particular character to fondly relate to.

What I don't particular like is being blasted for having differing opinions with majority. I for one got a lot of shit in the past for defending GSD, even when I never once forced my opinion, etc. Thankfully I haven't been flamed for thinking that Kanon so far is above average at best, which taking into account that it's not even over character introduction stage of a drama story, it's a damn good feat.

I happen to be enjoying Kanon and fundamentally (for each viewer), that is *all* that matters. Whether it is the most popular thing since sliced bread or just popular enough that people feel they *must* come in and puncture balloons at the party (griefing) is kind of unimportant in that respect.

Following the crowd just to fit in is juvenile.. but following along with the sole purpose of spoiling it for others is usually infantile.

edit: (scans the thread) who the hell said this was the "next Haruhi"???? Fans of the original game have been waiting for this for quite a long time. Sounds like someone is still getting their timeline confused.

The whole "fansub" counting statistic is really worthless anyway whether the downloads are high or low. It does not count eyeballs, even as a percentage My downloads get watched by as many as 10-20 people. The only real statistic (and even that is questionable since it doesn't count eyeballs) is the television ratings in Japan. That is what determines the future of the property.

[DanielSong39]

Let's enjoy the show for what it is - one of the more popular dating sims to hit the screen, complete with stunning production values.

If you like dating sim conversions but don't find this to your liking, you can always try Gift ~ Eternal Rainbow, Tokimeki Memorial ~Only Love~, Sumomomo Momomo: Chijou Saikyou no Yome, or Yoake Mae Yori Ruri Iro na ~Crescent Love~.

No one should be telling you what shows you should or shouldn't enjoy. One man's trash is another man's treasure. If you watch a show and really love it - does it really matter how popular it is?

[Shiroth]

I don't even see why the popularity of a show even matters, as long as you the viewer enjoy it - thats all that matters.

[Nightengale]

The problem is how some people wonder why the hell is this (( and Death Note as asked by someone in the DN thread )) popular just because they feel that it is undeserving of it's mass popularity, because it is not that freaking damn good....in their opinion.

And I sure hope I don't give the wrong impression. I'm enjoying Kanon surely, but at the same time, I'm not singing 20 kilo-tons of praises for it yet, because at this stage, it has yet to fully dissolve into what attracts me most in anime viewing personally...which is character development, character interaction, and plot-progression.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Skane

How about the people who watch RAWs, non-English fansubs, or Heaven forbid, the TV? English fansubs are merely one part of the greater whole.

I will note that I said:

There should be enough of a corollation in this large a population to just look at bittorrent numbers.

I was primarily looking at the english speaking population and going on the normally valid assumption that everything is in proportion among download methods. Raws are impossible to measure accurately (especially with a) KyoAni fake flooding b) people who don't understand them get them). In theory, they should be somewhat proportional (and beside 1 provider, they pretty much are as far as BT availability.) Then again, looking at the population, I suppose that is an under assumption. As for TV, I'd love a link to something beside the top 10 ratings that isn't biased like newtype's.

Again, your assumption. Not ours. It has never been stated by the majority in this thread that Kanon was suppose to be the next Haruhi. People here have been waiting for this REMAKE before SHnY even aired.

This wasn't an assumption. There are posts lke this* floating around this thread/other forums/blogs. "Every otaku in Japan watched it" etc. (I have even seen the "social phenomenon" phrase used.). It may not be the majority opinion but with a show like this, what is the majority even thinking beside "they better not fuck it up".

Nightengale and Shiroth pretty much hit the nail on the head. Whether its popular or not doesn't matter with regards to whether it should be enjoyable to watch it. There is lots of stuff that is popular that is crap. (See Naruto.) I would like to see some evidence that it actually isn't just the same 1000 people screaming really loud in a crowd of 1000000. It may be popular on danbooru but is it popular on 4chan? As popular as the other memes? (Just an example, not a specific question.)

My point in the last post is that the amount of noise regarding the show would make it seem that is far more popular than it seems to be. (Snakes on a Plane anyone?) There are lots of shows with very vocal populations which make their fandom look larger than they truely are. The posters were originally complaining about the negative attention given to it as if it was unexpected for something like this. (Again, see SoaP.)

*Not trying to make an example of the poster but its the first one that came up when I did the search.

(Note to some detractors who wonder why I am here: You don't always get to choose what series you FC (the step before release) when you help out a group. Thus why I only go in this thread and none of the other Kanon threads. Note that I used to like these series but looking back on it realize how bad it was. )

[Vexx]

Or at least how bad you perceive it to be now in your opinion.

Kanon may be a niche phenomenom in some respects but apparently it has a fanbase with a large pocketbook. As you state, "popular" is over-rated (see Naruto). I'm not going to espouse that Kanon is some great literary work but if I were going to recommend a romantic drama show to someone -- this might be in the handful I'd recommend (so far... yes, they'd better not f'itup).

Unfortunately, your post link doesn't really support your contentions. The referenced poster remarks that Haruhi is a "cult classic" and *hopes* that Kanon exceeds that --- it really has nothing to do with what you're asserting.
"cult classic" includes such things as "Army of Darkness" or "Shawn of the Dead" .... highly prized but little known by the general population.
Kanon might qualify as a "cult classic" in that sense -- but it is unlikely to entrance the anime subset that gets nauseated if the hero looks at a girl much less talks to them like a normal person.

[Skane]

*shrugs*

No show can ever please everyone. There will always be people who do not like something. This is to be expected. If a person does not like Kanon for what it is and is dead set on that point, I ain't gonna bother arm-twisting him/her into watching it. If a person asks however, for an opinion about Kanon, I will give it to him/her.

This the Kanon forum, of course the majority of the posters here will be Kanon fans by default. Some of us played the game before, some of us watched Toei's version of Kanon before, and some of us did both. The rest being new to the Kanon-verse.

I like Kanon's story, and I am eager to see it in its' animated form, as done by Kyoto Animation. That is good enough for me.

People have opinions, and they do not necessarily need to agree with me. Likewise, I do not necessarily need to agree with them.

It will interesting to see what the comments will be like when Kanon finishes its' run.

Cheers.

[4Tran]

I'm a little unsure as to why Kanon's popularity is being compared to Death Note's. After all, while the former does benefit from it's very famous game, that game has also never been translated (to my knowledge) to any Western language. Otherwise, the rest of the so-called hype is generated by just the people who liked the 2002 rendition - which never achieved any great acclaim, or the few who preferred the manga (this latter category is probably very small). Kanon is not exactly a title with broad appeal, nor is it very likely to be popular with the masses. Death Note, on the other hand, is coming off of a very successful Shounen Jump run, and is exactly the type of title that large segments of anime fans are drawn to. Comparing the two is sort of like comparing Air and a Gundam show simply because they ran on Japanese television at roughly the same time. Another way of looking at it is thinking of Kanon 2006 by Kyoto Animation like you would a remake of Doctor Zhivago by Peter Jackson. You can be relatively assured that the creator will give justice to the original material, but it's still just a remake, and one that appeals to a limited audience at that.

Part of the reason why many Kanon fans anticipated the prospect of Kyoto Animation tackling the show is because of the strength of the original game. While the 2002 Toei version stayed fairly true to the storyline, they were also fairly liberal in interpreting some of the characters, particularly Yuuichi. He was supposed to be a wise-cracking, almost cynical, guy who spent his time watching late-night variety shows while Toei portrayed him as a rather nice milquetoast. They also managed to show about 20% of the game's content. For example, Sayuri's story was all but absent, and Mai's story was severely truncated.

As far as I can tell, Kanon 2006 has been very faithful to the game, and it is already significantly better than the 2002 version. It's going to be a while yet before we can tell how well it will turn out, but it seems as if Kyoto Animation has the ability to do the game real justice.

Originally Posted by bayoab

If someone had said it would get ~25k/ week, it wouldn't have been surprising. That is about what I would have expected for <insert popular game that appeals to male otaku>. However, people (in this thread) were claiming it would be the next Haruhi.

Actually, Kanon effectively is the next Haruhi. In the beginning, everybody expected Haruhi to be a niche show like most of Kyoto Animation's offerings. Its success caught everyone, including its creators, off-guard. While I don't think that it would be fair for anyone to compare their overall appeal now, Haruhi was also successful among Western viewers in a manner that I haven't seen in at least the last five years. I'm sort of curious as to when it was that the poster claimed that Kanon 2006 would be the next Haruhi - do you have any direct quotes?

Originally Posted by Nightengale

The problem is how some people wonder why the hell is this (( and Death Note as asked by someone in the DN thread )) popular just because they feel that it is undeserving of it's mass popularity, because it is not that freaking damn good....in their opinion.

As I've stated above, I don't really think that Kanon is supposed to be all that popular outside of its decidedly niche audience. Then again, I'm not sure that a show has to be deserving of its popularity. After all, a lot of the most popular shows also tend to be relatively inoffensive and unchallenging as well. If you like the show, great; if you don't like it, don't feel too bad: it just may not suit your tastes.

Originally Posted by Nightengale

And I sure hope I don't give the wrong impression. I'm enjoying Kanon surely, but at the same time, I'm not singing 20 kilo-tons of praises for it yet, because at this stage, it has yet to fully dissolve into what attracts me most in anime viewing personally...which is character development, character interaction, and plot-progression.

As a general rule of thumb, you should never buy into hype. A lot of the time you'll have overly raised expectations, and end up disappointed rather than just enjoying a potentially entertaining show. On the other hand, Kanon's start is also the weakest part of the story. It's really just a setup to let us get to know the characters. The best parts come after you find out how and why they tick. This is one of the reasons why the people already familiar with the story derive more enjoyment out of the early episodes as opposed new to the show. We can pick up on the different cues, and we know what they mean.

I'd say that the best way to enjoy the show is to take it as it comes, and enjoy it however much you can. You'd also be better off avoiding this forum, and allow the show to speak for itself. It's a good idea anyways since these threads are chock full of spoilers.

[Nightengale]

I was never comparing Death Note and Kanon literally. I myself knows where both of them stand within the totem pole of popularity and hype. I don't see anyone waving the Madhouse flag and praises, but I do see a lot with Kyoto Animation. My point using Death Note and Kanon was how on both accounts, there were people who used the question of WHY THE HELL IS THIS (( SHOW )) POPULAR!? issue which relates to the issue of it getting a subforum, some in which makes some sense and some downright bashing popular shows...because hating popular shows always happen.

But the point at hand is that Kanon is popular, for whatever reasons. It may be because of Kyoto Animation's fame, it may be because of the seiyuus, it may be because of various reasons, and in this forum, that's all that really matters. Some may think it's going to be the next Gundam/EVA, some may feel let-down, etc, it all boils down to opinionated preference. Same case to how a lot of people seem to have some sort of negativity towards the mecha genre. Some people use the word deserving because the term quality and popularity are often never on the 2 same page. Personally, if someone ask me what is more deserving of a sub-forum in terms of quality, I would place Saiunkoku Monogatari far far ahead over stuff like Shuffle and Kashimasi, but because popularity is not quality...even in an opinionated sense, one should just enjoy what one deem to be quality entertaiment. If one good show in someone's opinion doesn't get a lot of viewers compared to another show, it's their loss, not the one who watched it.

AND I NEVER BUY INTO HYPE. I don't even buy into Kyoto Animation. I see what I see, and I like what I like.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by bayoab

As for TV, I'd love a link to something beside the top 10 ratings that isn't biased like newtype's.

Basically, you should use certain tools for certain tasks. If you are interested in what Japan's general population likes, then you most certainly will not find otaku shows like Kanon. I'm not even sure that you'd have even found Haruhi on it. After all, these shows air late at night (usually after midnight). The most popular current shows would be stuff like Doreamon, Sazae-san, Crayon Shin-chan, and the like - mostly shows that people in the West don't really care about. If you're interested in what the all-time favorite shows are, they can be found here. The celebrity list is probably the most representative of Japan's general populace. The first list would be more indicative of otaku tastes, but it's far more prone to inaccuracy (and flavor of the month).

Originally Posted by bayoab

This wasn't an assumption. There are posts lke this* floating around this thread/other forums/blogs. "Every otaku in Japan watched it" etc. (I have even seen the "social phenomenon" phrase used.). It may not be the majority opinion but with a show like this, what is the majority even thinking beside "they better not fuck it up".

While not every otaku may have watched the first Kanon, they would almost certainly be familiar with it, if only for its stature; and for how it affected the fan community since the game came out. Calling Kanon a "cult classic" is an extremely apt way of describing the show.

Originally Posted by Nightengale

I was never comparing Death Note and Kanon literally.

I'm not sure if this comment is directed to me, but I wasn't addressing my comment about Death Note to you.

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Personally, if someone ask me what is more deserving of a sub-forum in terms of quality, I would place Saiunkoku Monogatari far far ahead over stuff like Shuffle and Kashimasi, but because popularity is not quality...even in an opinionated sense, one should just enjoy what one deem to be quality entertaiment. If one good show in someone's opinion doesn't get a lot of viewers compared to another show, it's their loss, not the one who watched it.

As far as getting a separate forum goes, it appears as if this is entirely based on the volume of posts attached to it. It doesn't even have anything to do with popularity. Even if a different show were the most popular thing ever, it probably wouldn't get a separate forum unless there were a lot of posts to go with that popularity. Likewise, a niche show with a very talkative fanbase may get one instead.

Kanon seems to be the most popular with those who are already familiar with the material. If you don't understand the why of this, that's quite alright. If you don't feel that Kanon deserves this popularity, that's alright as well. Since you said that you've enjoyed it so far, then just watch as the little show that it is. Nightengale, I still suggest that you avoid this forum until you've watched the show because I think that you'll enjoy it more that way. I feel the exact same way about Seed Destiny as well.

Originally Posted by Nightengale

AND I NEVER BUY INTO HYPE. I don't even buy into Kyoto Animation. I see what I see, and I like what I like.

That's a very good thing. Personally, whenever I recommend a show to someone, the more I like it, the less I will talk about it. Good shows should be able to sell themselves quite readily - it's the mediocre ones that need more pumping up. This is yet more reason to avoid this forum.

[orion]

Referring to this post again, I don't see anything wrong in hoping that a title becomes more than a cult classic. Breaking that barrier means acceptance by the mainstream population, more sales and more works from all the companies involved. Also, if there are titles with a forum on our scale, then there's usually R1 interest in the title. Since Shuffle! was mentioned, this title was being shopped around for R1 release at Otakon 2006. There's also forum rumors as to who may have Haruhi.

Yes, we have great seiyuus, director and KyoAni behind Kanon. But, let's not forget that the story is what is important here and what Kanon is famous. The characters in this story are what we want to see animated again. It's the love for this title that has made this forum so huge.

So, what if we've got a large subforum and we are a niche title? It just shows you that the fans of this title are very vocal and want to discuss it. We reached over 1000 posts before the show premiered and rightfully deserved our forum.

If people feel that other titles deserve a forum, then encourage the viewership of those titles to discuss the titles more.

4Tran, Death Note and Kanon are probaby being used in the same sentence because of this poll that is still ongoing.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by orion

4Tran, Death Note and Kanon are probaby being used in the same sentence because of this poll that is still ongoing.

Really? That doesn't make much sense. Why should anybody here care about what kind of poll is running on a different forum? That it's a popularity poll should only make it that much less worthy of comment.

[Vexx]

Besides, the poll is "which one are you looking forward to the most?", which means that the other 4 or 5 I'm also *equally* anticipating are sliced out by coinflip. This is like those political surveys that I always end up writing in the margin because none of the answers work or the question itself is stupid/biased. Polls often result in *worse-than-neutral* information if poorly constructed or poorly sampled.

Here, I have some Cosmopolitan magazine surveys that people can fill out too ... very scientific

[KenOhki'sRage]

Spoiler for about Ayu:

I was thinking this while watching Kanon 2k2 but where exactly does she go when she's not with Yuuichi? I'm wondering if her first two wishes tie her to the world and allow her to interact with the others. The only person so far who interacts with her while Yuuichi isn't around is the taiyaki merchant. Perhaps later she'll interact with Akiko alone but I can't think of any other instances.

If her wishes remain the same that means we get "I want you not to forget me" and "I want to go to school with you" Obviously she's either returned to the dream or her physical "winged" Ayu version is able to continue in the world without Yuuichi. Perhaps she's at the imaginary school? I can't imagine her going to any sort of home but I can't imagine where else she goes.

So either she's poofing in an out of existance long enough to buy taiyaki and bump into Yuuichi or she's hanging out somewhere unaware that things don't make a whole lot of sense. I for one can't understand how hanging out at the stump of a tree could convince someone they're at "school" so I'm wondering if she simply returns to the dream and things are foggy enough that she doesn't realize the passage of time quite the way she should.

Bleh, I'm overthinking things but it's interesting to speculate I guess.