AnimeSuki Forums

Anh_Minh · 2007-06-04, 18:58

Yes, but I believe Kazuma when he stated that, unless she learnt to use her anger, to control it instead of being controlled by it, she'd never be anything but second rate.

ZippyDSM · 2007-06-04, 18:58

if she lost her hot bloodedness she would wind up like ren a basic fire user and it would take 10+ years for her to train enough to regain her power..

Anh_Minh · 2007-06-04, 19:04

It's not a matter of losing her hot bloodedness. It's a matter of controlling it properly. Like, say, Genma. Heck, even Ren seems to have better self-control. I think he was feeling that anger when he was fighting those evil spirits spawned by Ryuuya, but he wasn't swinging wildly. And neither did he when caught fire about Kazuma's refusal to use the elixir.

ZippyDSM · 2007-06-04, 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It's not a matter of losing her hot bloodedness. It's a matter of controlling it properly. Like, say, Genma. Heck, even Ren seems to have better self-control. I think he was feeling that anger when he was fighting those evil spirits spawned by Ryuuya, but he wasn't swinging wildly. And neither did he when caught fire about Kazuma's refusal to use the elixir.

and neither can he fight at their level(kazuma/ayano).....at full focused rage shes on kazumas heels when it comes to power,with out this slightly focused wild rage she would be pointless as a main character and if she was "mature" it would totally change the whole plot of the show.

Feel free to complain away I am worse with video games :P

PerseiD999 · 2007-06-04, 19:32

Ren is not a basic fire user, Ren rocks absolutely when he’s determined to, especially when he has Kazuma to back him up so he can focus on roasting, toasting, baking, frying without having to worry about rocks dropping on his skull…Kazuma + Ren = Hilarious BBQ party

While it’s true that, top notch Fire Users should have complete control over their own temper to keep their flames in perfect control (such as only burn things they intend to burn), I will be bored to death seeing our beloved princess evolved into Juugo #2.

P.S. Although it’s true that not all problems can be solved with hot blood, there are some problems only the ultimate burning Ayano can solve…

Tiamat's Disciple · 2007-06-04, 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZippyDSM

and neither can he fight at their level(kazuma/ayano).....at full focused rage shes on kazumas heels when it comes to power,with out this slightly focused wild rage she would be pointless as a main character and if she was "mature" it would totally change the whole plot of the show.

Feel free to complain away I am worse with video games :P

I doubt that very much. At the moment Kazuma is most likely the strongest human going since he's a contractor. Even without the contract he's proven time and again that Ayano is no match for him. Unless of course you think Ayano is the same class as Kazuma's dad? She is powerful, but after watching the current eps id say ren is more powerful than she is. All she has that gives her an edge is the Enriha, looses that and she'd be just another kanagi

lightbringer · 2007-06-04, 20:53

Even though Ayano's "red flame", while being a fluke that is not likely to be voluntarily reproducible by Ayano in the foreseeable future, kicked some ass, it should still not match Genma's "god flame", which in turn does not match Kazuma's non-contractor power level. Add to that Kazuma's natural handicap as a fuujutsushi, and we're already painting a picture of Kazuma as the single most powerful human being on earth - before the contract even comes into the picture.

Still, once/if she learns to control that red flame, she should surpass Ren in damage output (and I get the feeling that Ren is meant to be more about purification and less about actual damage)

FlareKnight · 2007-06-04, 20:56

I'm not going to dispute that Kazuma without a doubt is the strongest guy out there. Having that contract as well just makes him a real force, though he does need time to access it.

Now about Ren being more powerful I'm thinking that's going a bit far. Ayano isn't at Kazuma's father's level yet, but I do think she's stronger than Ren. He isn't weak since we've seen his strength, but I'm not willing to make him go over Ayano. He has control though which makes him more stable to figure out. Ayano's temper really is all over the place so she can be really strong one moment (red flame) and a bit clumsy the next. If Ayano was just an average Kannagi she wouldn't be able to use Enraiha, it's not just something handed out to whoever wants it.

PerseiD999 · 2007-06-04, 21:22

Ayano’s Red Flame, Genma’s Blue Flame, Juugo’s Purple Flame are all the same thing, they’re all classified as Divine Flame, with the colour of individual aura.

Last time I brought this up set a lot of people off, so I will be careful with my wording this time.

The truth is, Kazuma didn’t beat Genma’s Blue Flame with brutal force, but with strategy.

He deliberately misled Genma into underestimating his power, then when he suddenly started gathering a huge amount of Wind Spirts, Genma was shocked for a few second, which allowed Kazuma all the time he needed to launch the attack before Genma’s power was fully charged, because Wind Art is the fastest in terms of summoning speed.

The point is, if both of them come to fight all out (contract mode off) and fully prepared, the outcome remains debatable.

As for Ayano’s Red Flame,

Spoiler:

lightbringer · 2007-06-04, 21:28

Haha, can't argue with Mr. Spoilers

Interesting tidbit on the flame color, but doesn't the color represent different kinds of power? I've "read" (read: google translation) that on the Japanese Wikipedia, IIRC.

But I'd like to know, is your "with strategy" interpretation firmly grounded in the novel or is it just your extrapolation? While not showing all cards is a valid strategy, I still wonder if Genma was all that shocked. He didn't appear too shocked in the anime, at least not to the point of losing because of that, but how exactly was it in the novel? Did the author deliberately provide this kind of explanation for his loss?

The reason I (and others probably too) have a problem with this "explanation" is that Kazuma started summoning after Genma. So even if he had gone all out from the start, Genma might still have been shocked - having no reason to assume that Kazuma was extraordinarily; or conversely, having reasons to assume it in any case due to Kazuma's supposed defeat of other Kannagis. Anyway, point being, with wind summoning speeds faster, Kazuma could have kicked Genma's ass right from the start. Shocked or not schocked, Kazuma took his sweet time before he started summoning - it would seem that he took longer to start than Genma took to be "shocked".

Tiamat's Disciple · 2007-06-04, 21:33

Quote:

The truth is, Kazuma didn’t beat Genma’s Blue Flame with power, but with strategy.

Stratergy is still a part of power. Also do you seriously expect Kazuma to sit down and explain to Genma his fighting abilty and then fight him >.<

Genma is no match for Kazuma, this has been said a few times in the anime already. And if both came determined to fight Genma would be dead before he could even blink since Kazuma would already be in full contract mode.

Also from the eps ive seen so far (only seen the subed, not the raw) Ayano can not make the divine flame yet, kazuma intervenes and makes it for her by combining his wind with her fire.

As for ren being stronger, you proved my point FlareKnight. In terms of shere power out put your right, Ayano does beat Ren. However Ren has more control, stability and durability. Ayano is currently at the level where she'd burn a forest down just to get rid of a leaf. Because her temper is all over the place (she HAS to be a taurus :P) she's useless if you need someone for technical fighting. Ren however is perfect for it. Ayano is a JCB where as Ren is a motorbike

well time for bed for me, near 4am here >.<

Edit: IMO Genma was shoked, but not to the extent it would of effected him overly much. Also the look on his face when Kazuma attacked was clearly not one of shock, but to me he looked happy. As though he was glad Kazuma had found where he belonged. Which led me to believe that a part of the reason he was cast out of the kanagi family was to free him from any further expectation, so he could find his own path. Sure it probably wasnt all of it, but i think it was a part.

PerseiD999 · 2007-06-04, 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightbringer

Did the author deliberately provide this kind of explanation for his loss?

The answer is a firm YES, that part is pertty much a literal translation of the novel...

My point is not to argue who is stronger, because Kazuma is the most powerful one with contract mode on, period...and I fully agree with you, strategy is power...I guess I shall again revise my sentence, "The truth is, Kazuma didn’t beat Genma’s Blue Flame with brutal force, but with strategy."

Ayano's Divine Flame is...well, there is a long way to go...sorry for the confusion, I will spoiler tag that part.

lightbringer · 2007-06-04, 21:47

Damn. Well, I shall conveniently ignore that explanation just like how we ignore "evil Kazuma" for purposes of the anime

PerseiD999 · 2007-06-04, 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightbringer

Damn. Well, I shall conveniently ignore that explanation just like how we ignore "evil Kazuma" for purposes of the anime

No more "Evil Kazuma" for sure, I know (almost) everyone hates me for that..

lightbringer · 2007-06-04, 23:43

Nah, it's not personal, and trust me: spoiler fountains are (almost) always loved.

TigerII · 2007-06-04, 23:53

I like evil Kazuma. Good guys are over rated

usagijen · 2007-06-05, 00:44

as promised... here goes the sweet scene after Kazuma brawls with his father (right after he got out of the hospital) ^^;;;;;;;

Spoiler:

FlareKnight · 2007-06-05, 00:49

Spoiler for The Scene:

holyman282 · 2007-06-05, 00:51

yeah those kinds of moments show that their relationship really is developing...
Really hope they animate it..

Deathkillz · 2007-06-05, 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by usagijen

as promised... here goes the sweet scene after Kazuma brawls with his father (right after he got out of the hospital) ^^;;;;;;;

Spoiler:

hold on a sec!

Spoiler:

2007-06-04, 18:58	Link #1362
ZippyDSM Incoherance is my friend! Join Date: Dec 2005	if she lost her hot bloodedness she would wind up like ren a basic fire user and it would take 10+ years for her to train enough to regain her power.. __________________ http://zippydsmlee.deviantart.com/

2007-06-04, 20:56	Link #1368
FlareKnight User of the "Fast Draw" Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Canada	I'm not going to dispute that Kazuma without a doubt is the strongest guy out there. Having that contract as well just makes him a real force, though he does need time to access it. Now about Ren being more powerful I'm thinking that's going a bit far. Ayano isn't at Kazuma's father's level yet, but I do think she's stronger than Ren. He isn't weak since we've seen his strength, but I'm not willing to make him go over Ayano. He has control though which makes him more stable to figure out. Ayano's temper really is all over the place so she can be really strong one moment (red flame) and a bit clumsy the next. If Ayano was just an average Kannagi she wouldn't be able to use Enraiha, it's not just something handed out to whoever wants it. __________________ Anime-Evo

2007-06-04, 21:22	Link #1369
PerseiD999 Senior Member Join Date: May 2007	Ayano’s Red Flame, Genma’s Blue Flame, Juugo’s Purple Flame are all the same thing, they’re all classified as Divine Flame, with the colour of individual aura. Last time I brought this up set a lot of people off, so I will be careful with my wording this time. The truth is, Kazuma didn’t beat Genma’s Blue Flame with brutal force, but with strategy. He deliberately misled Genma into underestimating his power, then when he suddenly started gathering a huge amount of Wind Spirts, Genma was shocked for a few second, which allowed Kazuma all the time he needed to launch the attack before Genma’s power was fully charged, because Wind Art is the fastest in terms of summoning speed. The point is, if both of them come to fight all out (contract mode off) and fully prepared, the outcome remains debatable. As for Ayano’s Red Flame, Spoiler: miracle or not, she does beat Kazuma in her ultimate burning mode when his defeat is most needed, that’s all that matters…to me. Last edited by PerseiD999; 2007-06-04 at 21:53.

2007-06-05, 00:44	Link #1377
usagijen Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003	as promised... here goes the sweet scene after Kazuma brawls with his father (right after he got out of the hospital) ^^;;;;;;; Spoiler: this is just sooo sweet.... >__< makes me melt... she was having a heart-to-heart talk with Kazuma regarding what happened with his father... like lovers talking about stuff that happened to them... really sweet >o< no teasing from Kazuma, no impatient Ayano... just some really sweet scene... :3 (sorry for the overuse of 'sweet'.... I just can't help it ^^;;; )

2007-06-05, 00:49	Link #1378
FlareKnight User of the "Fast Draw" Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Canada	Spoiler for The Scene: Have to agree you can't describe that with any word other than sweet. Figures it takes an injured Kazuma for the two of them to have a very nice moment together. That's really a scene you can't help but want to see. Just for the KazumaxAyano people and for those who don't see things between them. It's nice to have the teasing and impatience between the two, but having that kind of moment is nice in its own way. __________________ Anime-Evo

2007-06-04, 18:58	Link #1361
Anh_Minh I disagree with you all. Join Date: Dec 2005	Yes, but I believe Kazuma when he stated that, unless she learnt to use her anger, to control it instead of being controlled by it, she'd never be anything but second rate.

2007-06-04, 19:04	Link #1363
Anh_Minh I disagree with you all. Join Date: Dec 2005	It's not a matter of losing her hot bloodedness. It's a matter of controlling it properly. Like, say, Genma. Heck, even Ren seems to have better self-control. I think he was feeling that anger when he was fighting those evil spirits spawned by Ryuuya, but he wasn't swinging wildly. And neither did he when caught fire about Kazuma's refusal to use the elixir.

2007-06-04, 19:32	Link #1365
PerseiD999 Senior Member Join Date: May 2007	Ren is not a basic fire user, Ren rocks absolutely when he’s determined to, especially when he has Kazuma to back him up so he can focus on roasting, toasting, baking, frying without having to worry about rocks dropping on his skull…Kazuma + Ren = Hilarious BBQ party While it’s true that, top notch Fire Users should have complete control over their own temper to keep their flames in perfect control (such as only burn things they intend to burn), I will be bored to death seeing our beloved princess evolved into Juugo #2. P.S. Although it’s true that not all problems can be solved with hot blood, there are some problems only the ultimate burning Ayano can solve…

2007-06-04, 20:53	Link #1367
lightbringer M9000 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: SBC Gurokken	Even though Ayano's "red flame", while being a fluke that is not likely to be voluntarily reproducible by Ayano in the foreseeable future, kicked some ass, it should still not match Genma's "god flame", which in turn does not match Kazuma's non-contractor power level. Add to that Kazuma's natural handicap as a fuujutsushi, and we're already painting a picture of Kazuma as the single most powerful human being on earth - before the contract even comes into the picture. Still, once/if she learns to control that red flame, she should surpass Ren in damage output (and I get the feeling that Ren is meant to be more about purification and less about actual damage)

2007-06-04, 21:28	Link #1370
lightbringer M9000 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: SBC Gurokken	Haha, can't argue with Mr. Spoilers Interesting tidbit on the flame color, but doesn't the color represent different kinds of power? I've "read" (read: google translation) that on the Japanese Wikipedia, IIRC. But I'd like to know, is your "with strategy" interpretation firmly grounded in the novel or is it just your extrapolation? While not showing all cards is a valid strategy, I still wonder if Genma was all that shocked. He didn't appear too shocked in the anime, at least not to the point of losing because of that, but how exactly was it in the novel? Did the author deliberately provide this kind of explanation for his loss? The reason I (and others probably too) have a problem with this "explanation" is that Kazuma started summoning after Genma. So even if he had gone all out from the start, Genma might still have been shocked - having no reason to assume that Kazuma was extraordinarily; or conversely, having reasons to assume it in any case due to Kazuma's supposed defeat of other Kannagis. Anyway, point being, with wind summoning speeds faster, Kazuma could have kicked Genma's ass right from the start. Shocked or not schocked, Kazuma took his sweet time before he started summoning - it would seem that he took longer to start than Genma took to be "shocked".

2007-06-04, 21:47	Link #1373
lightbringer M9000 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: SBC Gurokken	Damn. Well, I shall conveniently ignore that explanation just like how we ignore "evil Kazuma" for purposes of the anime

2007-06-04, 23:43	Link #1375
lightbringer M9000 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: SBC Gurokken	Nah, it's not personal, and trust me: spoiler fountains are (almost) always loved.

2007-06-04, 23:53	Link #1376
TigerII Pilot in Training Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Earth	I like evil Kazuma. Good guys are over rated

2007-06-05, 00:51	Link #1379
holyman282 Snape: "I hate Potter!" Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Australia	yeah those kinds of moments show that their relationship really is developing... Really hope they animate it.. __________________ My Anime Music Videos Sola Anime Music Video, Seto No Hanayome Anime Music Video