Spice and Wolf Light Novel Discussion

[JThree]

[, i ve had enough drama/tragedy endings[/QUOTE]

Same here, but sometimes fans and the authors are at odds with the creator's creations.

With all the pain and misery in the world, I don't know why some fiction writers want to revel in it. I know happy endings are a cliche but I'd like to know that all the emotional pain and suffering the characters went through wasn't for naught, and everyone has to separate at the end.


Again, happy endings are a cliche but it's better than the alternative.


JThree

[JThree]

Originally Posted by nsmcho

Of course they both are in love...
But Isuna can't possibly write a happy ending. There is a huge gap between the two lovers' lifespans.
I think we all agree to say that the problem is their lifespans. Horo doesn't want to see Lawrence die before her in a blink of her eye.
\.

I'm sorry, but I do think there are other concerns than just their lifespans. Not sure about this, but Holo does have a bit of selfishness to her, and Lawrence has some maturing to do in other areas.

JThree

[JThree]

Speaking of endings, I keep thinking that one possibility is that Lawrence is her "reincarnated" friend who pops up every several hundred years or so into Holo's life. She is eternal, while he keeps living, dying and than returning to her in another life.

I keep thinking how loyal Holo was to that "foolish" friend of hers that got to her to stay and and protect that villages harvests for hundreds of years. She was also reminded of him when Lawrence tilted back in that chair of his.

JThree

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by JThree

I know happy endings are a cliche but I'd like to know that all the emotional pain and suffering the characters went through wasn't for naught, and everyone has to separate at the end. Again, happy endings are a cliche but it's better than the alternative.

I feel that's more true for short stories and fairy tales.. but when you're this invested in a story, tacking on a half-hearted and glib ending wouldn't do it justice, and nor would it be truly satisfying. The good thing is that it feels like Hasekura isn't taking the lazy way out, even if he's dug himself into a bit of a hole. Hopefully he's found a way to make it end "happily", without it feeling like a cop-out. But if he hasn't, I'd rather it just doesn't "end".

Originally Posted by JThree

I'm sorry, but I do think there are other concerns than just their lifespans. Not sure about this, but Holo does have a bit of selfishness to her, and Lawrence has some maturing to do in other areas.

Thing is, those are the reasons they are likely to stay together. They complement each other, and as long as that's true they're unlikely to want to part ways. You can see just how strongly this rings true in volume 5, in how screwed up Holo is and in how far Lawrence is willing to go to be here for her.

True, they may never solve his selflessness or her selfishness, but that's why they're stronger together. On his own, he's just a lonely, insecure merchant. On her own, she's just a lonely, insecure harvest deity. Neither of them were going anywhere with their lives. But together they've foiled a rather grand business scheme and resolved a religious dispute between two rival towns.

[Mr. Anime]

where are happy endings a cliche? maybe in europe or america, where every mainstream movie just goes like this: loser guy somehow meets something dangerous, defeats it miraclously and gets the girl -> end, but in animes we get to see a REALLY happy ending not very often, because the main character or his partner die. We are heavily influenced by the western culture where tragedy isnt seen that often. ok i am comparing animes light novels and western movies but thats how i feel------> lets all pray for a happy ending ^^



finally my volume 3 arrived here in germany, took them long enough^^

[tyranuus]

Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo

On his own, he's just a lonely, insecure merchant. On her own, she's just a lonely, insecure harvest deity.

Dunno why but that quote makes me laugh.
Talk about more than the sum of your parts

[nsmcho]

Originally Posted by JThree

Speaking of endings, I keep thinking that one possibility is that Lawrence is her "reincarnated" friend who pops up every several hundred years or so into Holo's life. She is eternal, while he keeps living, dying and than returning to her in another life.

I keep thinking how loyal Holo was to that "foolish" friend of hers that got to her to stay and and protect that villages harvests for hundreds of years. She was also reminded of him when Lawrence tilted back in that chair of his.

JThree

Interesting theory.
We don't know much about this "friend" from the past. But given that she protected his village, she must have loved him.
And then with Lawrence, it's like "Yet another friend who will die early".

[Rajura]

Originally Posted by JThree

Speaking of endings, I keep thinking that one possibility is that Lawrence is her "reincarnated" friend who pops up every several hundred years or so into Holo's life. She is eternal, while he keeps living, dying and than returning to her in another life.

I keep thinking how loyal Holo was to that "foolish" friend of hers that got to her to stay and and protect that villages harvests for hundreds of years. She was also reminded of him when Lawrence tilted back in that chair of his.

JThree

I hope Hasekura doesn't go that way... it'd be just a little too convenient.

[JThree]

Originally Posted by Rajura

I hope Hasekura doesn't go that way... it'd be just a little too convenient.

I'm not sure I'd like it that way either, but it may be a way to give the couple a "happy ending" when no other way is possible. Lawrence grows old, dies, while Holo waits for him to return to her in another form, life, or reincarnation. And than they're together for 30-40 years until he dies, and the cycle repeats.

I'm not sure I like it either, but it does seem to fit a few clues that we've seen in the first light novel.

Of course, I could be wrong.

P.S. Is there any way we can get pretty detailed spoilers for what goes on in the next ten novels that have already been published in Japan? I find it intriguing that there are so few clues in the English speaking nations as opposed to what's going further on in Japan.

For the first time, I wish I could read read Japanese. Maybe that's what the whole plot of this has been? To get English reading people so hooked on the novels, they'll be desparate to learn the language.

JThree

[snsninja]

Originally Posted by JThree

P.S. Is there any way we can get pretty detailed spoilers for what goes on in the next ten novels that have already been published in Japan? I find it intriguing that there are so few clues in the English speaking nations as opposed to what's going further on in Japan.

For the first time, I wish I could read read Japanese. Maybe that's what the whole plot of this has been? To get English reading people so hooked on the novels, they'll be desparate to learn the language.

JThree

Yeah i'd like to know too. At least a summary of each novel would be nice.
I was looking through the merchandise thread and saw three characters who I haven't seen before but appear to be from later novels.

[ThunderSt0rm]

Originally Posted by JThree

Speaking of endings, I keep thinking that one possibility is that Lawrence is her "reincarnated" friend who pops up every several hundred years or so into Holo's life. She is eternal, while he keeps living, dying and than returning to her in another life.

I keep thinking how loyal Holo was to that "foolish" friend of hers that got to her to stay and and protect that villages harvests for hundreds of years. She was also reminded of him when Lawrence tilted back in that chair of his.

JThree

Doesn't she see Lawrence as a fool as well? That could be something that adds to your theory.

[JThree]

Other Thoughts:

You know, this concept of a human/mortal man falling in love with an immortal girl/spirit has come across before in literature.

I've just come across "Two Hearts," a short story sequel to the Last Unicorn, both written by Peter S. Beagle which reveals a somewhat tragic fate to Prince Lir, who in the orignal novel, falls in love with a Princess Amalthea, who before being changed by a magic spell, was a beautiful immortal unicorn.

It covers some of the same themes, but probably has different outcomes than in Spice and Wolf, and it has a far more melancholy tone than in what we've been discussing here, and in the Last Unicorn, the ending is somewhat mixed, both beautiful and sad. Princess Amalthea is changed back to her immortal self and her and Lear are parted, but one senses that they will always cherish that love they once shared. The supporting characters, Schmendrick and Molly get together, but not the big two.

Before the unicorn/Amalthea's transformation, she didn't understand human love and its short lived fragility, but afterwards she does understand it, and it is difficult for her to process, but she thanks the Schemdrick, who changed her, (for that part too).

More later, but the one point I wanted to bring across, is that this theme has been visited before in literature. And some times it has a beautiful, but tragic ending.

JThree

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by JThree

You know, this concept of a human/mortal man falling in love with an immortal girl/spirit has come across before in literature.

This is exactly why I'd like to see Hasekura do something interesting that is suitable for these characters and the situation they are in. If he opts for a lazy "it's been done before" kind of ending, it will probably cheapen the whole thing. Even Babylon 5 touched on the ideas of how eternal beings struggle with their "loneliness".. it doesn't have to be the central theme of the overall story, or even remain the central focus of Holo's character.

After all, this story isn't really just a romance, it's a character study.. I want to feel like both of the characters have grown together - regardless of whether they ultimately "hook up". The romance is just a nice bonus, since it's done well so far and isn't the entire story. But if it takes over the entire story, and then tops that off by having a mediocre ending.. well, let's just hope it doesn't

Actually, the more I consider it, the more I *like* how Spice and Wolf has avoided being about something "larger than life". This is a story with pagan deities, yet it feels more down-to-earth and identifiable than most of the stuff I've watched/read over the past few years.

[JThree]

Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo

This is exactly why I'd like to see Hasekura Actually, the more I consider it, the more I *like* how Spice and Wolf has avoided being about something "larger than life". This is a story with pagan deities, yet it feels more down-to-earth and identifiable than most of the stuff I've watched/read over the past few years.

Could you explain a bit further what you mean by "larger than life," please?
or give examples where this happened in other literature/movies, such?


"This is a story with pagan deities."

I know this is contradictory, but I do struggle with that part of it. It does feel identifiable and relatable, but there's just something about that expression that gives me . . . something.

Jthree

[tyranuus]

Originally Posted by JThree

Could you explain a bit further what you mean by "larger than life," please?
or give examples where this happened in other literature/movies, such?


"This is a story with pagan deities."

I know this is contradictory, but I do struggle with that part of it. It does feel identifiable and relatable, but there's just something about that expression that gives me . . . something.

Jthree

I think what he means is that despite the story featuring pagan deities, demi-gods and similar, the story still stays true to itself, and presents believeable, flawed, ultimately quite 'human' characters; and yet with the sort of characters featuring, the story could quite easily have deviated to something far more cliched/fantastic, losing that sense of reality/belief it carries, and without any major sense of depth or empathy to the characters.

In other words, Lawrence and Holo behave very much like real people; they make mistakes, they have goals which make sense (in Lawrence's case, making a living and establishing himself, and in Holo's case, simply finding her way home after some time away), when the story could have quite easily have gone over the top, and taken away most of the relateable, human aspects (almost charicatured them), or simply turned the characters into stark images of perfection and had them go hunt down some mythical artifact (we'll call it the artifact )

In a sense the story is very down to earth; the characters don't make you feel like they're perfect, nor do they behave as such, they're not out to save the world, they're just trying to get by.
Even the setting, that of a merchant, is very different from your average 'fantasy' tale, and yet with some of the component ingredients, the series is very much fantasy; and yet its almost as far away from more-cliched Tolkein/High Fantasy-style as you can get. Other aspects like the church are also portrayed perhaps more realistically than you'd expect from a more traditional fantasy story, they're certainly not perfect nor beacons of justice, they don't really like you and they want your money, and power....and this is very much what the church WAS like back in the period this series is losely set in, nor is the simple merchant the story revolves around suddenly chatting with kings etc, rather he's actually talking to normal townspeople and traders, as you'd expect.

At the crux of it, the series is a slow romance based around a travelling trader, his companion and thier developing bond, with some period and fantasy trappings, and it stays true to that, rather than relying on the fantasy to tell the story. You could take a lot of the fantasy away, transpose it elsewhere and the core story itself would remain sound.

Hope what I'm trying to get across makes sense, its not the easiest thing to explain if you 'don't get it' haha

[BashZeStampeedo]

Yeah, basically what tyranuus said. It's not necessarily what we've been talking about, but I all I meant was that I don't want the story to lose sight of what makes it great just because it wants to have an "epic" ending. Especially not searches for fountains of youth, wars with moon-hunting bears or the Church, etc.

I've read and seen many such stories that are basically epics, sagas, fairy tales, etc.. but not as many simple, down-to-earth tales about people surviving in the harshness of the regular world. In Spice and Wolf, it's not "world-changing schemes", it's just "business as usual", with our characters driving their own story.

Holo and Lawrence don't have to rage against the machine or rally against the sun. If it's not treated with the appropriate tact, the story will become about the ending (ie, plot-driven), instead of being about the journey and character growth. And to me that's just not what Spice and Wolf is about. But again, that's not necessarily the type of ending we've been talking about, just the kind I would rather Hasekura avoids.

[MaximilianK1]

Sorry to bud in on the conversation. I just registered and am new forums in general. but is it possible for anyone to reply with a high resolution scan of the cover of Spice and Wolf: Side Colors, the 7th volume in the series. I support the novels as they come out in English and the 7th novel isn't due for more than a year. I particularly love the art on volume 7 but I could not find the image anywhere except on the Japanese site, which is too small. All the covers are beautiful. I would really appreciate anyone who could send me some files or direct me to high resolution scans of the novels. Thank you so very much.

[tyranuus]

Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo

If it's not treated with the appropriate tact, the story will become about the ending (ie, plot-driven), instead of being about the journey and character growth. And to me that's just not what Spice and Wolf is about. But again, that's not necessarily the type of ending we've been talking about, just the kind I would rather Hasekura avoids.

To be fair, I wouldnt mind if the *last* novel is plot driven and as much about the story, rather than the journey, as it'd be much better to have a final novel with a strong closure to the story, than a weak ending which leaves the story wide open, and unfulfilled, which is always a danger with this sort of series.

It'd be nice to see the tale close in a fulfilling manner, no matter how it's done, as long as it's not a cop out ending or a 'we got here...but erm, yeah well theres plenty more [I'm not going] to tell', and it doesn't ruin previous development by changing the characters to force an ending.

That said we might be talking about slightly different things.

[nsmcho]

If you guys want some spoilers...
But someone has to translate these blogs.

14

http://blog.livedoor.jp/wind_wings/a.../51430170.html

15

http://blog.livedoor.jp/wind_wings/a.../51556380.html


@maximilian

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by tyranuus

To be fair, I wouldnt mind if the *last* novel is plot driven and as much about the story, rather than the journey, as it'd be much better to have a final novel with a strong closure to the story, than a weak ending which leaves the story wide open, and unfulfilled, which is always a danger with this sort of series.

Each novel *is* plot-driven, but I was referring to their relationship. There are clearly some things that need closure, so we know that the characters have overcome their most pressing concerns.. but beyond that, whether it needs "complete" closure is a matter of taste.