(L) Phantom ~Requiem for the Phantom~ (Nitroplus & Bee Train)

[orion]

Originally Posted by NOIR001

It is easy for you to say that when you don't care about Cal but we are talking about Reiji here who cares about both Ellen and Cal very much. This is a guy who is willing to risk his life for both of them so the most important part for him is to somehow keep both girls safe; he is not worrying about getting shot by Cal. In fact, he wouldn't mind getting shot by Cal if he thought that such a situation would keep both girls safe. Remember he swore to protect both of them; the last thing he wants is a repeat of Helen's case when he shot her by accident, this is a nightmare that would hurt Reiji more than being shot at. Self defense only called for when you are thinking of survival and this is not at the top of Reiji mind right now. Also, you talk as if Reiji doesn't feel that he is at fault for what happen to Cal when in reality he blames himself for what happen to her. It is like your girl coming back to avenge for all the nasty things that you did to her and you just kill her and claim self defense. That is just cold and the current Reiji isn't like that.

There is a fine line and she's crossed it. She's trying to kill him. She is also partially responsible for what she is doing. Being a 16 yo now, she should know how the world works. People get dumped, abandoned, killed, abused etc. She's on a revenge kick. She's threatened Elen with that bullet inside of an envelope and intends to kill her too.

Yes, when it comes down to it, if your life is in danger and the only way out is to terminate the shooter, then you do it. It's a very logical and expected thing to do. The past is the past. She should have moved on and didn't. She latched onto a 16 yo with unreasonable expectations and she got hurt. Hey, sh*t happens.

[NOIR001]

Originally Posted by Oppai

I dont doubt that Reiji does care for Cal but maybe he feels an obligation to stop her. He feels a need to stop the beast he has created.

OK, let's try to be in Reiji's shoes. He doesn't know what Cal has been doing in the last 2 years, all he knows is that she looks nastily dangerous now just like he was before so let's put her away is that what you are saying. So you mean it is OK for Reiji to kill to say alive but not OK for Cal to do the same? You do know that right now if Cal is not an assassin for Inferno then they would have eliminated her for her association with Reiji who is a traitor as far as Inferno is concerned. So if he wants freedom should he not wanting the same for Cal. At the very least, he should try to do that instead of just decide to off her without giving her a chance don't you think?

[daimonth]

If anything its Reijis own fault for involving Cal, make a promise he couldn't keep and then leaving her in the hands of a monster like Scythe. Oh lets not forget about the 5 million he took from her and used it to escape.

Frankly if you want to damn her for killing, you need to damn them all: Ein, Zwei(both of whom Scythe has managed to turn into killers without fail) and everyone else on this show.

[miroku2192]

Hmmm is Elen from Switzerland or Mongolia :O!?!?

[Oppai]

Originally Posted by NOIR001

OK, let's try to be in Reiji's shoes. He doesn't know what Cal has been doing in the last 2 years, all he knows is that she looks nastily dangerous now just like he was before so let's put her away is that what you are saying. So you mean it is OK for Reiji to kill to say alive but not OK for Cal to do the same? You do know that right now if Cal is not an assassin for Inferno then they would have eliminated her for her association with Reiji who is a traitor as far as Inferno is concerned. So if he wants freedom should he not wanting the same for Cal. At the very least, he should try to do that instead of just decide to off her without giving her a chance don't you think?

I do not think that Cal kills to stay alive. She does it out of plain enjoyment. If staying alive was on her mind, the restaurant scene shoud have been very different. Im pretty sure that she feel that there is no one that can touch her, just look at how she treats SM. She is reckless and even killed a member of Inferno. Shouldnt that be enough for Inferno to have gotten rid of her already?
I also never said that it wasnt ok for her to kill to stay alive. I just said that maybe Reiji feels an obligation to finish her as he had a part in creating her.

[NOIR001]

Originally Posted by orion

There is a fine line and she's crossed it. She's trying to kill him. She is also partially responsible for what she is doing. Being a 16 yo now, she should know how the world works. People get dumped, abandoned, killed, abused etc. She's on a revenge kick. She's threatened Elen with that bullet inside of an envelope and intends to kill her too.

Yes, when it comes down to it, if your life is in danger and the only way out is to terminate the shooter, then you do it. It's a very logical and expected thing to do. The past is the past. She should have moved on and didn't. She latched onto a 16 yo with unreasonable expectations and she got hurt. Hey, sh*t happens.

You are saying that Cal should know better but you forget that SM is manipulated her for the past 2 years. He won't allow her to think straight, even a clear mind good heart person would go bad if she is being fed poison constantly. When Cal lost Reiji, she became very vulnerable, in times under normal circumstances she could recover but this is not normal right? SM is fueled her rage so this is not the normal Cal and Reiji knows that. So if you are Reiji, you would want to bring back the old Cal instead of just off her. As far as Cal concerned, Elen is the one that steals Reiji away so threatening to kill her is just normal but this is more of a reason for Reiji to step in and save both of them after all he know they are fighting over him. After all if 2 girls are fighting over you, you just don't smack one unless you only care for one and not the other.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by orion

Yes, when it comes down to it, if your life is in danger and the only way out is to terminate the shooter, then you do it. It's a very logical and expected thing to do.

Fine so far.

The past is the past. She should have moved on and didn't.

That's already pretty questionable. Reiji has some major responsibility here (thankfully he sees it this way), and "should have moved on" is pretty cold.

She latched onto a 16 yo with unreasonable expectations and she got hurt. Hey, sh*t happens.

And this is BS. Sorry, man. This is such a selfish and uncaring way to look at it that I'm pretty flabbergasted. "Pacta sunt servandam" is one of the cornerstones of civilization. And the way you trivialitize the past and complely ignores Reiji's responsibilities is quite unbecoming, just like your former "put down the rabid dog" talk.

No - he'll have to find out what happened. Besides, if all Cal wanted to do was kill him, he would have been dead by now.

[Oppai]

Originally Posted by NOIR001

You are saying that Cal should know better but you forget that SM is manipulated her for the past 2 years. He won't allow her to think straight, even a clear mind good heart person would go bad if she is being fed poison constantly. When Cal lost Reiji, she became very vulnerable, in times under normal circumstances she could recover but this is not normal right? SM is fueled her rage so this is not the normal Cal and Reiji knows that. So if you are Reiji, you would want to bring back the old Cal instead of just off her. As far as Cal concerned, Elen is the one that steals Reiji away so threatening to kill her is just normal but this is more of a reason for Reiji to step in and save both of them after all he know they are fighting over him. After all if 2 girls are fighting over you, you just don't smack one unless you only care for one and not the other.

While its true that he manipulated her and she was very emotional at that time on the apartment. She got herself in it for having very poor judgement. How is she going to trust someone she just met, if anything she should have been weary of Scythe Master. But it looks like she completely gave into her emotions.
If Reiji tries to explain the situation and she takes Scythe Master's words and not Reiji, then I would say yes, off her.

[Zetsubo]

You know... Dr. Frankenstein never had much luck trying to kill Frankenstein.

Your monster creations and vilianous plots always come back to kill you.

[NOIR001]

Originally Posted by Oppai

I do not think that Cal kills to stay alive. She does it out of plain enjoyment. If staying alive was on her mind, the restaurant scene shoud have been very different. Im pretty sure that she feel that there is no one that can touch her, just look at how she treats SM. She is reckless and even killed a member of Inferno. Shouldnt that be enough for Inferno to have gotten rid of her already?
I also never said that it wasnt ok for her to kill to stay alive. I just said that maybe Reiji feels an obligation to finish her as he had a part in creating her.

I agree that Cal is out of control fueled by hate. In fact, the anime makes her use a racist slur to emphasize the point that she is fueled by hate. But you forgot that Reiji doesn't know about this, all he knows is that there is a shoot out at the restaurant where many people were killed and that it probably involves Cal that's it. So he doesn't know how out of control she is but he does know that she is probably fueled by hate based on his conversation with SM so if he kills her than SM would have won. To beat SM he needs to bring the old Cal back. To kill a problem which has gotten to big for you to handle is a sign that you have surrendered instead you need to put it under control. Killing is a cheap way to solve problem that should be employed under dire circumstances only and Reiji hasn't reached that point yet.

[miroku2192]

Man SM should just subject himself to the training that's making all these unbelievably good assassins. At least he'd be able to protect himself at that point :\

- edit - I agree with noir. Killing her would be the "cheap" way out, and certainly a lame ending if he does :X

[Soraya21]

I suppose I'll get in on a piece of this.

Even though this was just an add-on, I thought that the flashback at the end of episode 18 did an excellent job of summarizing what Reiji means to Cal. Just a quick recap to refresh everyone's memory: Cal states she isn't like everybody else and that she's missing something which normal people can easily obtain. However, Reiji was able to give that to her. Then she reiterates how she wants to stay together forever.

From what I got out of this; it simply means that Reiji was her everything. And when he left, she was left with nothing. Hence is why she got all bat-shit crazy and vengeful afterwards. That's it (or there could be more depending on what the anime decides to include).

It's fine if there are people out there that don't sympathize with Cal or can't condone her actions, but at least try to understand that these cases do happen and it's not something to really call fowl over.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

You know... Dr. Frankenstein never had much luck trying to kill Frankenstein.

Your monster creations and vilianous plots always come back to kill you.

That's why you kill them when they look dangerous.

Originally Posted by Soraya21

From what I got out of this; it simply means that Reiji was her everything. And when he left, she was left with nothing. Hence is why she got all bat-shit crazy and vengeful afterwards. That's it (or there could be more depending on what the anime decides to include).

It's fine if there are people out there that don't sympathize with Cal or can't condone her actions, but at least try to understand that these cases do happen and it's not something to really call fowl over.

That kid was psycho.(This is what people are called who do things like this in reality.) She "latched" onto a stranger and stayed at his place. No 14 yo females do things like that with pure innocence. They want something in return. In her case, it was vengence. Then she liked the lifestyle and wanted to be an assassin. Instead of suggesting that they leave together (normal response), she offers to join him as an assassn. And when it looks like he was dead, instead of gettng the heck out of Dodge, she's crying in a bombed out apartment not thinking that she could be next. She finds out he's on the lam with another woman, she becomes an assassin (prob what she always wanted to do) and gets her revenge groove on. She was with this guy for less than a year and he becomes "her everything". Uh, no. This is another Fatal Attraction scenario with Drei in the Glenn Close role imo.

Originally Posted by miroku2192

- edit - I agree with noir. Killing her would be the "cheap" way out, and certainly a lame ending if he does :X

It would make for an interesting discussion, good drama and a nice death scene. I think that talking her down would be very unrealistic and lame. All 3 are killers with 2 of them natural born killers. Sympathy is the last thing to be expected from any of them.

Reiji has already beat SM twice with Elen. If he and Elen escapes, it's 3 times. Killing both Drei, SM and those 6 girls would be the ultimate win imo.

[Oppai]

Originally Posted by NOIR001

I agree that Cal is out of control fueled by hate. In fact, the anime makes her use a racist slur to emphasize the point that she is fueled by hate. But you forgot that Reiji doesn't know about this, all he knows is that there is a shoot out at the restaurant where many people were killed and that it probably involves Cal that's it. So he doesn't know how out of control she is but he does know that she is probably fueled by hate based on his conversation with SM so if he kills her than SM would have won. To beat SM he needs to bring the old Cal back. To kill a problem which has gotten to big for you to handle is a sign that you have surrendered instead you need to put it under control. Killing is a cheap way to solve problem that should be employed under dire circumstances only and Reiji hasn't reached that point yet.

You bring up good points. I probably make it seem like I dislike Cal but that is not the case. I agree that the best would be to work things out because if Cal gets her Revenge Scythe would have won also. But if that doesnt happen Reiji's only options are to finish her or have her track him down for the rest of his life. Harem ending sounds good right about now .

[orion]

Originally Posted by Mentar

That's already pretty questionable. Reiji has some major responsibility here (thankfully he sees it this way), and "should have moved on" is pretty cold.

And this is BS. Sorry, man. This is such a selfish and uncaring way to look at it that I'm pretty flabbergasted. "Pacta sunt servandam" is one of the cornerstones of civilization. And the way you trivialitize the past and complely ignores Reiji's responsibilities is quite unbecoming, just like your former "put down the rabid dog" talk.

No - he'll have to find out what happened. Besides, if all Cal wanted to do was kill him, he would have been dead by now.

Lots of relationships fail. Fact of life. You either move on or get buried by your past. Drei got buried by her Reiji obsession. Her Reiji obsession unearthed her love of killing and hatred that was within her.

Pacta sunt servandam usually assumes reasonable expectations on both sides as the basis of a contract. As I said before, it is unreasonable for anyone to expect to be with a 16 yo or anyone forever. Relationships fail, especially at that age.

Drei wants him to suffer first. That's why she gave him a warning shot and then went after Elen first ala Fatal Attraction.

Interesting enough, Phantom of the Inferno (2000) was released after Fatal Attraction (1987).

And... a rabid animal is what she's become. She lacks control and enjoys killing. Putting down a rabid animal was done in a famous 1957 Disney title. If Disney can do it, then Nitro+ and Bee Train shouldn't have any problems imo.

[miroku2192]

@orion:

I don't think talking her "down" will be "unrealistic". For Reiji who had lost so much, and was thrown into a pit of darkness, Cal was the one who brought him out of that "hell hole". Reiji did it for Ein, and now its Reiji's turn to do it for Cal, and shooting her and kililng her is certainly NOT the way to do it.

If anything, just shooting her is what would be unrealistic for someone like Reiji who is quite emotional. It's just not in line with his character...if anything, sacrificing himself to protect cal is something he would do. Cal did so much for him, and he knows that.

[orion]

Originally Posted by miroku2192

@orion:

I don't think talking her "down" will be "unrealistic". For Reiji who had lost so much, and was thrown into a pit of darkness, Cal was the one who brought him out of that "hell hole". Reiji did it for Ein, and now its Reiji's turn to do it for Cal, and shooting her and kililng her is certainly NOT the way to do it.

If anything, just shooting her is what would be unrealistic for someone like Reiji who is quite emotional. It's just not in line with his character...if anything, sacrificing himself to protect cal is something he would do. Cal did so much for him, and he knows that.

The past is in the past. When one's life is in danger, you shoot imo. She's trying to kill him. Any debt that he has to her has gotten negated imo. That's the flip side of "owing someone one". It's only there when you're not enemies.

As I said before, Elen was easy to read. He could tell that she didn't want to kill him. Heck, even the viewers could see that. Just the mention of her name and she's putty in his hands.

He can always shed a tear over Drei's body and say, "I'm sorry, Cal. I didn't mean for it to end this way."

[telamont]

Interesting discussion. Can I join in? On whether Cal deserves to be hated for her actions or not, I think the argument basically boils down to this:

Anti-Cal Argument: Reiji had good reason for doing what he did. Cal should have been more understanding. Relationships fail and people get dumped all the time IRL anyway, especially when you're a teenager. Get over it. Flipping out and becoming a ruthless assassin hell bent on revenge is NO WAY to react. Sure Scythe Master did egg her on some, but she still has her memory and free will, he obviously does not have THAT much sway over her. The responsibility for her evil acts ultimately lie with Cal. She made the choice. She's the psycho bitch. She deserves to die.

Pro-Cal Argument: Cal had good reason to be angry. Anyone would be angry in that situation. Left to her own devices though, she probably would have moved on. The world will never know. What DID happen though, was that she was approached by Scythe Master and manipulated/brainwashed/coerced (take your pick) into becoming an assassin. Say what you will about her being left with her memory and free will; in the end it was a distraught, emotionally vulnerable teenage girl with o place to go vs. a guy with a PHD in psychology and neurology, with years, maybe even decades of experience in manipulating and brainwashing people under his belt . Oh, and he's also backed by the largest criminal syndicate in America . The methodology may have been different, and she appears to have had more control over her fate, but in the end, Drei had as much choice in becoming Phantom as Ein And Zwei did. That is to say, none at all. She's just as much of a victim as Ellen and Reiji.

I believe the crux of the matter then is how much influence Scythe had over Cal. Other than hearsay, we have NO IDEA what actually happened between them during those two years. And even when we DID see Scythe at work (with Reiji), I think what we were shown was very symbolic and stylized, with much left to the viewer's imagination. In conclusion, the degree of influence Scythe had over Cal's development, from minimal to absolute, is left completely open to interpretation. We just don't have enough information to go by.

So if you're anti-Cal (and more importantly, pro-Ellen I suspect), you'll say that Scythe had minimal influence. Cal is now just a rabid dog that should be put down (and GTF out of the way of my favorite ship btw ) If you're pro-Cal, you'll say that she's just as much a victim as Ellen and Reiji and therefore is just as deserving of a second chance as they are. And both arguments would be equally valid I think. There's just not enough information to prove or disprove either point of view. Can we all just agree to disagree and move on to something else?

I'll start: Assuming that all three Phantoms are equal victims of Scythe Master, if one of them absolutely has to die, then it should be Ellen. From a completely neutral and detached point of view, it would be the least tragic death. From the perspective of the story, it would be the death that brings the most closure. What does everyone think of this statement?

I'll argue my point later if anyone is interested. Don't quite feel like typing another mini-essay at the moment.

PS: Orion, please don't kill me for my blasphemy

[DragoZERO]

There is so much VN discussion.. I'm getting scared of visiting this thread.

Originally Posted by Oppai

I dont doubt that Reiji does care for Cal but maybe he feels an obligation to stop her. He feels a need to stop the beast he has created.

I disagree. I think he still regrets what happened and wished he was able to return to search for her more. He may come to that conclusion later on, but not right now.

[orion]

Originally Posted by telamont

PS: Orion, please don't kill me for my blasphemy

I'm pro-me actually.

I'm basically "If you point a gun at me, then I'm not going to let you have a chance to shoot." Basic survival strategy. I don't care about the reasons as the end result is me dying. I have no problems with knives as at least I have a chance.

This title is all about tragedy and Elen's story hasn't fully been told so you can't say that she is the least tragic imo. Her death doesn't bring full closure from that point alone. Killing a reformed assassin who's found Christianity is very tragic imo. People with obsessions ala Fatal Attraction aren't sympathy getters imo. But the least tragic death would be SM imo.

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

There is so much VN discussion.. I'm getting scared of visiting this thread.

It happens when a side can't defend their position by using the anime only.