Log Horizon - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[J4n1]

The trip to Susukino should have taken a month, and another month to get back, if not for the griffon whistles, and that's for level 90 adventurers.
Even if they sent spies the second apocalypse happened (unlikely), it could take days, weeks, even months, before those spies arrived, and just as long for them to get any information sent back (and that's not counting time spent gathering the information).

[Estavali]

It's entirely possible that Eastal has been keeping tabs on Akiba and Shibuya (both which falls within their zone of influence) long before the Catastrophe, and then one fine day, its agents sent back news like, "ZOMG milord, the Adventurers, THEY'RE ALIVE!!!" or the sort. Which leads to heightened interest in the happenings of the player cities and that they would know or want to know anything of note ASAP =3

[Sheba]

Then cue news of what was happening in Susukino spreading. Suddenly, having NPCs being wary of the Akiba folks makes more sense.

[darksassin]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Probably from the Landers. Now before you burst into a victory dance, remember that at that time, people thought only ingredient items could taste like they should, so those were bought en-masse. Stuff like salt, sugar, oil etc. would have seemed entirely pointless to the merchant guilds, because who eats raw salt, salt or oil?



... and the adventurers suddenly forming a government isn't a change in their behavior, how?

The argument that they'd have send spies sooner would fly in the age of cars and internet, sure. But this is Elder Tale. It can take days, even weeks just to travel between cities. News travels even slower. So there would be Apocalypse -> Landers notice change -> Landers travel between cities spreading rumors -> rumors reach palace -> debate -> decide to send spies -> >spies arrive -> spies spy -> spies return -> debate -> decide to invite to meeting -> ambassador travels to Akiba to give the invitation.

That's a lot of time.



What, that the Farmer Subclass allows adventurers to farm, or that "we need to investigate" refers to what can be done with Subclasses outside of the game's rules? Because the later was directly stated, and the former is just consistency and common sense.



Nope. The anime doesn't mention any subclass specifically as crafting or roleplaying. To learn which is which, we'd have to use the wiki.



The clerical work one? Like Shiroe said. Cheaper. Adventurers usually have a completely different view on value (I've lost count how many times in D&D my players were paying for their drinks with gold, even though their drinks were only a few copper each).

Probably from the Landers. Now before you burst into a victory dance, remember that at that time, people thought only ingredient items could taste like they should, so those were bought en-masse. Stuff like salt, sugar, oil etc. would have seemed entirely pointless to the merchant guilds, because who eats raw salt, salt or oil?

Seasoning the food was one of the way to make tasteless food have some resemble s of taste as shown in episode 3. So yeah, sugar and salt are probably essential too. And if those guild only interested in buying ingredients with taste, why they stock up flour(which I assume they dont really use it for eating) en masse, or heck, deer meat?So, who eat raw flour and deer meat? Someone eating deer meat raw eh?

P.S. I dont really do victory dance

... and the adventurers suddenly forming a government isn't a change in their behavior, how?

The argument that they'd have send spies sooner would fly in the age of cars and internet, sure. But this is Elder Tale. It can take days, even weeks just to travel between cities. News travels even slower. So there would be Apocalypse -> Landers notice change -> Landers travel between cities spreading rumors -> rumors reach palace -> debate -> decide to send spies -> >spies arrive -> spies spy -> spies return -> debate -> decide to invite to meeting -> ambassador travels to Akiba to give the invitation.

That's a lot of time.

Shiroe said that The Palace that hold the Noble's meeting is around 2 hours distance from Akiba. And they moved leisurely. Even the beach where the training camp was held doesnt take 2 days 1 night to get to. So Ill assume any nearby noble residence around 1 day journey? Maybe 2 or 3, but it shouldnt take that long.

What, that the Farmer Subclass allows adventurers to farm, or that "we need to investigate" refers to what can be done with Subclasses outside of the game's rules? Because the later was directly stated, and the former is just consistency and common sense.



Nope. The anime doesn't mention any subclass specifically as crafting or roleplaying. To learn which is which, we'd have to use the wiki.

There it is, Common sense.
Yea its true that cooks can cook, crafters can craft , so logically farmers can farm right? I agree with you totally. But that doesnt change the fact that its still only logic, common sense, assumption. Saying Adventurers can farm as a fact is just fallacy.

The clerical work one? Like Shiroe said. Cheaper. Adventurers usually have a completely different view on value (I've lost count how many times in D&D my players were paying for their drinks with gold, even though their drinks were only a few copper each).

Why Adventurers require more wages in the first place then? What makes their view different?

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by darksassin

Seasoning the food was one of the way to make tasteless food have some resemble s of taste as shown in episode 3. So yeah, sugar and salt are probably essential too. And if those guild only interested in buying ingredients with taste, why they stock up flour(which I assume they dont really use it for eating) en masse, or heck, deer meat?So, who eat raw flour and deer meat? Someone eating deer meat raw eh?

.... That is a good question. Why stock up flour, but not salt and sugar?

Originally Posted by darksassin

P.S. I dont really do victory dance

Your loss, victory dances are good for the soul.

Originally Posted by darksassin

Shiroe said that The Palace that hold the Noble's meeting is around 2 hours distance from Akiba. And they moved leisurely. Even the beach where the training camp was held doesnt take 2 days 1 night to get to. So Ill assume any nearby noble residence around 1 day journey? Maybe 2 or 3, but it shouldnt take that long.

Touche. But that still leaves a lot of time. Spying, meeting, debating on how to handle them, I theorize it would have taken them much, much longer to debate on what to do before the RTC provided a clear head to send messengers to.

Originally Posted by darksassin

There it is, Common sense.
Yea its true that cooks can cook, crafters can craft , so logically farmers can farm right? I agree with you totally. But that doesnt change the fact that its still only logic, common sense, assumption. Saying Adventurers can farm as a fact is just fallacy.

No, you saying "well, they haven't explicitly said that adventurers can farm, so the farmer subclass existing and the other subclasses showing they allow players do do their stuff proves nothing" is the fallacy here.

Originally Posted by darksassin

Why Adventurers require more wages in the first place then? What makes their view different?

They earn money swifter than Landers.

Look, I can see where you're going with this, which is why I pointed out that buying resources from the Landers is not going to be the main economic chokepoint: Buying resources from the guilds that will suck up those resources the moment they hit the market is.

[Kyosuke_Nanbu]

Hmm, it was 2 months after the Castastrophe already, it was enough time to do all the debate how to deal with the advanturers.

Susukino is a wrong example as it is in different zone from Eastal.2 nearest cities from Akiba are only a few days on horse away

[darksassin]

Originally Posted by Keroko

.... That is a good question. Why stock up flour, but not salt and sugar?



Your loss, victory dances are good for the soul.



Touche. But that still leaves a lot of time. Spying, meeting, debating on how to handle them, I theorize it would have taken them much, much longer to debate on what to do before the RTC provided a clear head to send messengers to.



No, you saying "well, they haven't explicitly said that adventurers can farm, so the farmer subclass existing and the other subclasses showing they allow players do do their stuff proves nothing" is the fallacy here.



They earn money swifter than Landers.

Look, I can see where you're going with this, which is why I pointed out that buying resources from the Landers is not going to be the main economic chokepoint: Buying resources from the guilds that will suck up those resources the moment they hit the market is.

.... That is a good question. Why stock up flour, but not salt and sugar?

Who knows? Ask those guilds~
Well I have a few theory about that, but still working out the holes and details. Ill tell them if Im convinced of them myself

Your loss, victory dances are good for the soul.

I guess Ill try it later, but not for discussion

Touche. But that still leaves a lot of time. Spying, meeting, debating on how to handle them, I theorize it would have taken them much, much longer to debate on what to do before the RTC provided a clear head to send messengers to.

I guess so, but At least we should see more of the spy before the RTC was established. But the Spies are only noticeable only a week after RTC was established, meaning those spies are sent specifically due to Adventurers forming a government, not because the supposed change of Adventurers before and after the Apocalypse. And Shiroe himself said that the Landers have started to move, implying that the spies were recent development

No, you saying "well, they haven't explicitly said that adventurers can farm, so the farmer subclass existing and the other subclasses showing they allow players do do their stuff proves nothing" is the fallacy here.

Actually, I think it would be more accurate if I say"well, they haven't explicitly said that adventurers can farm, so the farmer subclass existing and the other subclasses showing it is possible, its just we dont know it yet"

They earn money swifter than Landers.

Look, I can see where you're going with this, which is why I pointed out that buying resources from the Landers is not going to be the main economic chokepoint: Buying resources from the guilds that will suck up those resources the moment they hit the market is.

Not exactly, hmm, how to say it...
I guess my point is,
Would Adventurers farm or mine(if they can) if Landers can provide them with the same things? Are adventurers able to match the quantity and variety that Landers offer them, Would it be viable for Adventurers to do it? Would Adventurers be able to offer the same price as The Landers? Would the Adventurers be able to be self-sustaining without depending on Landers?
Edit:
Also, the real economic checkpoint is the availablity of Landers selling those resources in the first place. If somehow the Adventurers cannot buy the resource in the first place, therer will be no market to monopoly.

[Tenzen12]

I can't help but wonder how exactly adventurers fit to local economic. I mean they got money from monsters that spawn from nowhere. Wouldn't it lead to inflation? I guess so far adventurers needed very little money to live for it to have any immediate effect but with recent boom this can speed things up...

[darksassin]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

I can't help but wonder how exactly adventurers fit to local economic. I mean they got money from monsters that spawn from nowhere. Wouldn't it lead to inflation? I guess so far adventurers needed very little money to live for it to have any immediate effect but with recent boom this can speed things up...

It is possible that there are many money sinks. maintainance of things perhaps? its possible that there is maintainance fee for something. It seems that the Landers already are self sufficient (since we did not see any sign of famine or starvation), and are able to sell the surplus of resources to Adventurers. So, inflation would probably only affect Adventurers for a certain amount of time, while indirectly proffiting Landers. Also, its possible that the research boom would provide more things in the market, that would probably balance out the increased currency too. Also, as easy as it might seem, hunting those monsters still require time and effort.
Now whether the money sinks are enough to balance out the inflation remains to be seen, but the effect of inflation shouldnt be as disastorous as it can be. (Eg, when Shiroe bought the Guild Building, 5 million golds were already out of circulation. So thats an example of money sink.)

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by darksassin

I guess so, but At least we should see more of the spy before the RTC was established. But the Spies are only noticeable only a week after RTC was established, meaning those spies are sent specifically due to Adventurers forming a government, not because the supposed change of Adventurers before and after the Apocalypse. And Shiroe himself said that the Landers have started to move, implying that the spies were recent development

Well, like I said earlier, they weren't really spies per se. More like official scouts. It's kind of a bad idea for spies to wear very noticeable golden-ruby rings telling people directly where you come from.

Anyway, it's a combination of factors. Remember the hunter at the start of the episode? "Adventurers can only kill, they don't create anything." Now, adventurers start creating all sorts of stuff and forming governments.

That's change. Both of them.

Originally Posted by darksassin

Actually, I think it would be more accurate if I say"well, they haven't explicitly said that adventurers can farm, so the farmer subclass existing and the other subclasses showing it is possible, its just we dont know it yet"

... that's exactly the same.

Originally Posted by darksassin

Not exactly, hmm, how to say it...
I guess my point is,
Would Adventurers farm or mine(if they can) if Landers can provide them with the same things? Are adventurers able to match the quantity and variety that Landers offer them, Would it be viable for Adventurers to do it? Would Adventurers be able to offer the same price as The Landers? Would the Adventurers be able to be self-sustaining without depending on Landers?

Would Adventurers farm or mine(if they can) if Landers can provide them with the same things? Yes. Most adventurers have to farm anyway to gather money. Might as well farm the mobs carrying the resources you're after while you're at it.

Are adventurers able to match the quantity and variety that Landers offer them? They outclass the quantity and variety of the Landers. That's why the merchants guilds are doing so well. Some resources adventurers need will be of the rare kind, only obtainable through high-level drops. Landers can't get those, so they won't sell those.

Would Adventurers be able to offer the same price as The Landers? Hell no, adventurers would ask a much, much higher price.

Would the Adventurers be able to be self-sustaining without depending on Landers? Easily. Hunt for food, farm for food, buy the houses you need, done. Basic necessities are there. They will, of course, end up with a lot more adventurers doing stuff that they could have hired Landers for (housekeeping, managing the bank, more farmers, etc.) but it's possible. Much harder, but possible.

Originally Posted by darksassin

Also, the real economic checkpoint is the availablity of Landers selling those resources in the first place. If somehow the Adventurers cannot buy the resource in the first place, therer will be no market to monopoly.

Of course there is. Players end up with resources they can't use in MMO's all the time. So they sell them to the highest bidder, which would be the merchant guilds.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

I can't help but wonder how exactly adventurers fit to local economic. I mean they got money from monsters that spawn from nowhere. Wouldn't it lead to inflation? I guess so far adventurers needed very little money to live for it to have any immediate effect but with recent boom this can speed things up...

Most of the adventurers gold exchange going on is between adventurers. Landers don't see a lot of the gold adventurers earn. Adventurers are also a minor number of people compared to the Landers, who aren't nearly as wealthy as adventurers. You can't raise prices on your goods if it means excluding 90% of your customers. That's where riots are born.

[Alf]

Inflation was not possible when it was a game, so it could be that items sold by Landers are under some sort of price control, which might be possible because of following factors:

1) Items and services sold by Landers may not had a supply bottleneck due to menu driven process;
2) Huge amount of player money is spent for maintainence of high level equipments;
3) Bank is run by Landers and it might be operated in a way to prevent inflation, which could be very different from banks in our world;

However, all of these are just Lander part of economics. Free market between players are not controlled by these factors.

[darksassin]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Well, like I said earlier, they weren't really spies per se. More like official scouts. It's kind of a bad idea for spies to wear very noticeable golden-ruby rings telling people directly where you come from.

Anyway, it's a combination of factors. Remember the hunter at the start of the episode? "Adventurers can only kill, they don't create anything." Now, adventurers start creating all sorts of stuff and forming governments.

That's change. Both of them.



... that's exactly the same.



Would Adventurers farm or mine(if they can) if Landers can provide them with the same things? Yes. Most adventurers have to farm anyway to gather money. Might as well farm the mobs carrying the resources you're after while you're at it.

Are adventurers able to match the quantity and variety that Landers offer them? They outclass the quantity and variety of the Landers. That's why the merchants guilds are doing so well. Some resources adventurers need will be of the rare kind, only obtainable through high-level drops. Landers can't get those, so they won't sell those.

Would Adventurers be able to offer the same price as The Landers? Hell no, adventurers would ask a much, much higher price.

Would the Adventurers be able to be self-sustaining without depending on Landers? Easily. Hunt for food, farm for food, buy the houses you need, done. Basic necessities are there. They will, of course, end up with a lot more adventurers doing stuff that they could have hired Landers for (housekeeping, managing the bank, more farmers, etc.) but it's possible. Much harder, but possible.



Of course there is. Players end up with resources they can't use in MMO's all the time. So they sell them to the highest bidder, which would be the merchant guilds.



Most of the adventurers gold exchange going on is between adventurers. Landers don't see a lot of the gold adventurers earn. Adventurers are also a minor number of people compared to the Landers, who aren't nearly as wealthy as adventurers. You can't raise prices on your goods if it means excluding 90% of your customers. That's where riots are born.

Well, like I said earlier, they weren't really spies per se. More like official scouts. It's kind of a bad idea for spies to wear very noticeable golden-ruby rings telling people directly where you come from.

Anyway, it's a combination of factors. Remember the hunter at the start of the episode? "Adventurers can only kill, they don't create anything." Now, adventurers start creating all sorts of stuff and forming governments.

That's change. Both of them.

And both really change only after RTC formation.

... that's exactly the same.

I never said it proved nothing

Would Adventurers farm or mine(if they can) if Landers can provide them with the same things? Yes. Most adventurers have to farm anyway to gather money. Might as well farm the mobs carrying the resources you're after while you're at it.

Are adventurers able to match the quantity and variety that Landers offer them? They outclass the quantity and variety of the Landers. That's why the merchants guilds are doing so well. Some resources adventurers need will be of the rare kind, only obtainable through high-level drops. Landers can't get those, so they won't sell those.

Would Adventurers be able to offer the same price as The Landers? Hell no, adventurers would ask a much, much higher price.

Would the Adventurers be able to be self-sustaining without depending on Landers? Easily. Hunt for food, farm for food, buy the houses you need, done. Basic necessities are there. They will, of course, end up with a lot more adventurers doing stuff that they could have hired Landers for (housekeeping, managing the bank, more farmers, etc.) but it's possible. Much harder, but possible.



Of course there is. Players end up with resources they can't use in MMO's all the time. So they sell them to the highest bidder, which would be the merchant guilds.

Im talking about Adventurers became farmer, as in the subclass =_=
Thats why I differentiate them as farming and looting....

When Adventurers became farmer or miner, it is likely that he or she wont have time for looting.

So would an Adventurers became farmer full time knowing that? can those farmers match the quantity and variety being sold by Landers? Can they provide prices similar to Landers? Would other Adventurers buy from the farmers if Landers can provide them cheaper? Would the Adventurers community willing to sacrifice some of the workforce from combat and production to become farmer and possibly have to pay much more?

Also you seem to forget that there might be a chance that some of the resources can only be obtained from Landers.

And it is unlikely for monopoly to happen that way. Those guild would want to buy cheap in the first place. The monopoly happened mostly because it comes from few and cheaper choice. (plus the fact that there were almost no effort to gather resources at that time)

Originally Posted by Alf

Inflation was not possible when it was a game, so it could be that items sold by Landers are under some sort of price control, which might be possible because of following factors:

1) Items and services sold by Landers may not had a supply bottleneck due to menu driven process;
2) Huge amount of player money is spent for maintainence of high level equipments;
3) Bank is run by Landers and it might be operated in a way to prevent inflation, which could be very different from banks in our world;

However, all of these are just Lander part of economics. Free market between players are not controlled by these factors.

Pfft~ You have no Idea how drastic the inflation in some mmo(especially in mmo with heavy trading), at least between players. But Ill assume thats not what you meant.

No 2 is an example of money sink/drain, in which the currency used basically disappear from circulation

For no 3, yeah it is possible. I think the bank here function more like safekeeping service instead of investment method, and would probably charge the Adventurers for each use, but since it is seemed to be managed by Landers, we do not know yet whether the money goes to Landers, or went down money drain/sink

p.s sorry for doublepost

[Tenzen12]

Actualy when I said inflation I meant landers economy as money adventurers spend on their good come pretty much from nothing. But yes there is very little players and only small part of their money go to landers so economy might be able deal with it.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by darksassin

And both really change only after RTC formation.

But it shows that adventurers themselves changed, which means they didn't act the same before the catastrophe.

This is again a 'read between the lines' kind of thing. "Adventurers don't create anything, they simply fight and shed blood." Players do this all the time. It's how games work. They just run around and kill stuff, bar perhaps a few RPers. That quote shows that the adventurers were doing just that before the apocalypse: acting like players would.

Now the reason the lander nobles didn't react to the adventurers is quite simple: Who would they address? Prior to the RTC, adventurers had no visible leadership. Sending your emissaries to invite random people is like throwing a burning torch in a cellar of powder kegs.

Originally Posted by darksassin

I never said it proved nothing

You're rejecting all proof solely because we don't have a direct quote. Yes you do.

Originally Posted by darksassin

Im talking about Adventurers became farmer, as in the subclass =_=
Thats why I differentiate them as farming and looting....

Oh. Well, in that case, no they wouldn't be able to match the landers in quantity and price. Numbers alone give the landers a huge advantage in farming, and adventurers have a different point of view in the value of objects so they'd inevitably be more expensive.

Quality and variety, yes. Because the 'making stuff outside of what the game says' allows them to use techniques and grow things the system doesn't.

Originally Posted by darksassin

Also you seem to forget that there might be a chance that some of the resources can only be obtained from Landers.

You mean certain reagents? True, sometimes merchants in MMO's sell things like cogs that are used in crafting recipes. But those only matter if you're trying to make things through the menus. If you're not using the menu's, you can replicate those reagents or use substitutes.

[aohige]

I would advise to stay away from getting too far into discussing monetary circulation, sink, inflation, and the whole lot, as it can and eventually will lead to inevitable spoiler territory.

In fact, a lot of questions being asked have answers, but obviously cannot be answered without spoilers (well, not necessarily spoilers from the novel or future anime episodes, many of them are from supplementary material such as the author's own posts in wiki, side stories, author's posts in forums, etc) so you need to take home "I can't tell you because it's a spoiler" as an answer for some of the questions you have, dark. Demanding it to be proven is basically enticing the spoilers you yourself have asked not to.

[darksassin]

Originally Posted by Keroko

But it shows that adventurers themselves changed, which means they didn't act the same before the catastrophe.

This is again a 'read between the lines' kind of thing. "Adventurers don't create anything, they simply fight and shed blood." Players do this all the time. It's how games work. They just run around and kill stuff, bar perhaps a few RPers. That quote shows that the adventurers were doing just that before the apocalypse: acting like players would.

Now the reason the lander nobles didn't react to the adventurers is quite simple: Who would they address? Prior to the RTC, adventurers had no visible leadership. Sending your emissaries to invite random people is like throwing a burning torch in a cellar of powder kegs.



You're rejecting all proof solely because we don't have a direct quote. Yes you do.



Oh. Well, in that case, no they wouldn't be able to match the landers in quantity and price. Numbers alone give the landers a huge advantage in farming, and adventurers have a different point of view in the value of objects so they'd inevitably be more expensive.

Quality and variety, yes. Because the 'making stuff outside of what the game says' allows them to use techniques and grow things the system doesn't.



You mean certain reagents? True, sometimes merchants in MMO's sell things like cogs that are used in crafting recipes. But those only matter if you're trying to make things through the menus. If you're not using the menu's, you can replicate those reagents or use substitutes.

But it shows that adventurers themselves changed, which means they didn't act the same before the catastrophe.

This is again a 'read between the lines' kind of thing. "Adventurers don't create anything, they simply fight and shed blood." Players do this all the time. It's how games work. They just run around and kill stuff, bar perhaps a few RPers. That quote shows that the adventurers were doing just that before the apocalypse: acting like players would.

Now the reason the lander nobles didn't react to the adventurers is quite simple: Who would they address? Prior to the RTC, adventurers had no visible leadership. Sending your emissaries to invite random people is like throwing a burning torch in a cellar of powder kegs.

Can I VM/PM you for this? Discussing this further would probably involve spoilers.

You're rejecting all proof solely because we don't have a direct quote. Yes you do

No.
Hmm...lets see, Maybe this is slightly incorrect analogy
there are 4 lifeguard quadruplets that have same physical. 3 of them can swim ,and shown to be great swimmers. can the fourth swim too? it is very possible (since he is a lifeguard) but we dont know for sure until we see him in the water

Oh. Well, in that case, no they wouldn't be able to match the landers in quantity and price. Numbers alone give the landers a huge advantage in farming, and adventurers have a different point of view in the value of objects so they'd inevitably be more expensive.

That, and fever resource produce will drive the price higher.

Quality and variety, yes. Because the 'making stuff outside of what the game says' allows them to use techniques and grow things the system doesn't.

Are you sure? Lets see, would enough of the adventurers have sufficient knowledge of farming in the first place? Emphasis on medieval farming for now, since the modern tools and items would still be in planning. Would they knew what to do in farming? Id expect they would have many major failures in the beginning. Unlike blacksmith and scribing, or even cook in which you can easily apply modern knowledge, it would be much harder to apply modern knowledge to farming(if they have any) since overal situation doesnt really accomodate that knowledge well. Not to mention mistakes done during farming would likely be more disasterous compared to crafting.

Also, more varieties would impact the quantity of the ingredients. That is something to be considered

Say, lets assume that the landers provide a third of raw materials, or maybe a fourth(my estimation is more close to a half).
If landers are out of the equation, can those farmers at least close the gap? Maybe they can, but the price will increase exponentially.

You mean certain reagents? True, sometimes merchants in MMO's sell things like cogs that are used in crafting recipes. But those only matter if you're trying to make things through the menus. If you're not using the menu's, you can replicate those reagents or use substitutes.

Not just reagents or cogs. raw materials in general

Originally Posted by aohige

I would advise to stay away from getting too far into discussing monetary circulation, sink, inflation, and the whole lot, as it can and eventually will lead to inevitable spoiler territory.

In fact, a lot of questions being asked have answers, but obviously cannot be answered without spoilers (well, not necessarily spoilers from the novel or future anime episodes, many of them are from supplementary material such as the author's own posts in wiki, side stories, author's posts in forums, etc) so you need to take home "I can't tell you because it's a spoiler" as an answer for some of the questions you have, dark. Demanding it to be proven is basically enticing the spoilers you yourself have asked not to.

Well my intention is to discuss things within the boundary of only Anime. Sure I knew some of the spoilers already, but Ill ignore them to try to have more constructive discussion with just assumption and knowldge from just the anime, and see whether it is possible or not. Actually this whole discussion should be in Animewatchers speculation thread but since they start here, I dont really have a choice I guess I got carried away again Cant be helped, unlike certain someone who argue badly just to disagree, Keroko is a seriously formidable debater that I cant help but enjoy debating against
him/her (gomen Keroko Dont know which gender you are)

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by darksassin

Can I VM/PM you for this? Discussing this further would probably involve spoilers.

Sure thing.

Originally Posted by darksassin

No.
Hmm...lets see, Maybe this is slightly incorrect analogy
there are 4 lifeguard quadruplets that have same physical. 3 of them can swim ,and shown to be great swimmers. can the fourth swim too? it is very possible (since he is a lifeguard) but we dont know for sure until we see him in the water

Strawman analogy (and yet still in my favor since becoming a lifeguard requires you to be able to swim). Consistency is key here. If we have to wait for word-by-word from every single profession whether they can do their thing, we'll never know everything. We've been shown for any profession that was shown that they still work in this new world. The message is clear: Professions continue to work in Log Horizon. There is no need for proof that the farmer works differently. Quite the opposite, we would need proof that it does work differently.

Originally Posted by darksassin

That, and fever resource produce will drive the price higher.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by darksassin

Are you sure? Lets see, would enough of the adventurers have sufficient knowledge of farming in the first place? Emphasis on medieval farming for now, since the modern tools and items would still be in planning. Would they knew what to do in farming? Id expect they would have many major failures in the beginning. Unlike blacksmith and scribing, or even cook in which you can easily apply modern knowledge, it would be much harder to apply modern knowledge to farming(if they have any) since overal situation doesnt really accomodate that knowledge well. Not to mention mistakes done during farming would likely be more disasterous compared to crafting.

Also, more varieties would impact the quantity of the ingredients. That is something to be considered

There's tons of methods even with the technology they have to increase farming productivity. Crop rotation, attracting beneficial animals or bugs (ladybugs eat lots of harmful bugs, for example), use of compost and harvest residue to maintain soil fertility, modern water management (which can be achieved with fairly simple methods), the list goes on and on. Most of these are farming 101's.

Originally Posted by darksassin

Not just reagents or cogs. raw materials in general

I have yet to see a single MMO that makes raw materials NPC-only. At most it's a reagent. But the metal requires to forge a blade is always farmed by the player.

Originally Posted by darksassin

Cant be helped, unlike certain someone who argue badly just to disagree, Keroko is a seriously formidable debater that I cant help but enjoy debating against
him/her (gomen Keroko Dont know which gender you are)

Him.

[Krono]

Originally Posted by darksassin

Hmm...lets see, Maybe this is slightly incorrect analogy
there are 4 lifeguard quadruplets that have same physical. 3 of them can swim ,and shown to be great swimmers. can the fourth swim too? it is very possible (since he is a lifeguard) but we dont know for sure until we see him in the water

That only highlights the absurdity of your argument. By the circumstances you describe, we can assume that the fourth lifeguard can swim until proven otherwise as it would be extremely unusual for him to be unable to swim. Likewise we can assume that a player with the farmer subclass can farm until proven otherwise, as him being unable to farm would be an extremely unusual exception to the rules that have been established thus far for subclasses (i.e. people can do what their subclass says they can do). What you're asking us to do, and say "Oh we can't say they can farm because they might be the first exception to the rules the series has thus far established" is quite foolish.

[GundamFan]

I'd say a better question is do they really need farms then is farmer an available subclass because the only thing that has really been indicated are they do feel hunger and it is possible for them to starve. There really isn't anything that indicates diet influences how a character performs.

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by GundamFan

I'd say a better question is do they really need farms then is farmer an available subclass because the only thing that has really been indicated are they do feel hunger and it is possible for them to starve. There really isn't anything that indicates diet influences how a character performs.

They need farms because they need food, and they need food because they got hungry. Its not been stated if you die in hunger because no one tried it but feeling hunger should indicate its possible to die out of starvation. And also being hungry affects the performance of a character because there is stamina bar that need to replenish so they need to rest, but that is a game feature. when it turn real. they really need food because they feel that they are hungry.

At the episode when Shiroe and the others are travelling in between Susukino. They stop at night or in between to eat and rest. they need that. its an essential of a living being but not a necessity when its a game but ITS NOT A GAME ANYMORE.