(L) Phantom ~Requiem for the Phantom~ (Nitroplus & Bee Train)

[orion]

Originally Posted by telamont

She's Inferno's top assassin, and at least she has her own will, she can probably pick her jobs at this point. It's highly unlikely they'll send Phantom after Joe Schmoe off the streets anyway.

"Live fast, die young" is also a way of life after all.

Hmm... wonder if my attitude is little too easy going.

No, she's the top assassin by default. That's a bit different. It's like winning the contest because you're the only entrant. She's sloppy (leaves guns and equipment at the murder site, shoots friendlies.). She's prob holding that position until they train a replacement imo.

Originally Posted by Nayrael

Which is just why I have written "goal concerning her" there rather then "her goal", not to mention that I do consider her to have been mentaly mature enough while she was 14 years old, altough the playful attitude (which I consider to be part of her personality rather then effect of age) made her seem childier. If anything has changed, that was with Scyhte's influence. It is how I inrepreted it, even when I was at this point in the VN first time (concerning Drei/Cal, info was the same).

Tough I do not feel discussing this for long so I will put a spoiler tag if that brings peace to you.

A playful attitude is also a part of maturity. Compare your relatives at 14 and 16. It can be more dramatically seen with the maturity of a female cat. There is a noticeable change.

Yes. this is how you are interpreting things but this VN is a more reality based one so teen maturity should also be applied. That's the problem with Drei. Drei also has responsibilities regarding her goals. All of it is not SM's doing imo. Not allowing Drei to share the responsibility is also not allowing another facet of her character to shine imo.

[Nayrael]

A playful attitude is also a part of maturity. Compare your relatives at 14 and 16. It can be more dramatically seen with the maturity of a female cat. There is a noticeable change.

I have seen in my life A LOT of people people who are playful even after they grew up. A lot of people are both playful and mature.

That's the problem with Drei. Drei also has responsibilities regarding her goals. All of it is not SM's doing imo. Not allowing Drei to share the responsibility is also not allowing another facet of her character to shine imo.

When did I say that she was not responsible for what she did?
And I do not remember her doing anything so terrible in anime that she is so worse then other two that we must discuss her responsibilities. The flashback of what heppened before seem to be explained next episode (judging by preview) and then we will be able to discuss the responsibilities.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Nayrael

I have seen in my life A LOT of people people who are playful even after they grew up. A lot of people are both playful and mature.

But in this circumstance, the playful part would not be expected to exist. You practically have seen other mature examples in this series. They are not playful at all.

The degree of playfulness in an adult is different than in a teen and decreases with age after you reach 20 imo. A sharp reality plunge into the workforce with bill payments tends to do this.

Originally Posted by Nayrael

When did I say that she was not responsible for what she did?

That's an observation of the sentiment in this thread. It's easy to blame SM but not easy to also blame Drei imo.

Yeah, the other 2 have responsibilites for their actions after any brainwashing effects are worn off so Elen and Reiji are not blameless but at least they have guilt and moved on with their life to less violent things. They can't resurrect the dead.

[Zwei]

Originally Posted by evil-samurai

So its possable we are going to have Scythe x Reiji Scenes.... *Shivers* Though Reiji is no shota he is the closest there is and fits in there with Scythe on the first tag..

Nah, I don't think so because it's not a hentai manga, it follows the storyline but the mangaka used to draw yaoi hentai since I checked on mangaupdates. It would be weird if that would happen lmao.

[Nayrael]

But in this circumstance, the playful part would not be expected to exist. You practically have seen other mature examples in this series. They are not playful at all.

As I said already, playfullness is part of her personality. Even tough she has been through many things that would leave many people more serious then they were (having such a bad life that she ran away from her father, living at the bottom of society, seeing her sister being killed in front of her eyes...). Those events did make her mature mentaly faster (not to mention that she has shown signs of intelligence), but her personality is playful and thats what makes her look imature when she was younger. Thus, what she said then might not have changed in these two years. The change I blame on manipulation of her feelings.

That's an observation of the sentiment in this thread. It's easy to blame SM but not easy to also blame Drei imo.

Because for now we don't know what happened yet. We know that she has changed for the worse and seeing SM near her strongly hints that blame is to be put on him. I mean, we had seen her in just one episode. One episode is not enough to make a judgement.

Yeah, the other 2 have responsibilites for their actions after any brainwashing effects are worn off so Elen and Reiji are not blameless but at least they have guilt and moved on with their life to less violent things. They can't resurrect the dead.

Ein murdered under brainwashing and manipulation. Elen murdered nobody so she does not have to take much blame.

Reiji, continued to kill after the events at harbour. He was not forced to serve Inferno, he could have ran away immediately. He wasn't manipulated either... he served them from his own free will. He could have used freedom given to him to ensure an escape route and run away. Yet, he left them only after Inferno decided that he needs to die.

And here we have Cal. She has as much freedom as Reiji, but also needed a job (as she coudn't survive without anything) and was manipulated by Scyhte. She enjojs her job more then Reiji, but she is still not enough to be called a psycho (like giving her targets slow and ugly death or being maniacal like Reiji was at harbour). It is just enough to put her on the same level of sin as Reiji.

Elen sined the least (she was brainwashed, hypnotised and drugged and didn't do anything after deciding to become Elen), but the other two are BOTH great sinners. Both served Inferno from their own free will.

[Oppai]

Originally Posted by Nayrael

As I said already, playfullness is part of her personality. Even tough she has been through many things that would leave many people more serious then they were (having such a bad life that she ran away from her father, living at the bottom of society, seeing her sister being killed in front of her eyes...). Those events did make her mature mentaly faster (not to mention that she has shown signs of intelligence), but her personality is playful and thats what makes her look imature when she was younger. Thus, what she said then might not have changed in these two years. The change I blame on manipulation of her feelings.



Because for now we don't know what happened yet. We know that she has changed for the worse and seeing SM near her strongly hints that blame is to be put on him. I mean, we had seen her in just one episode. One episode is not enough to make a judgement.



Ein murdered under brainwashing and manipulation. Elen murdered nobody so she does not have to take much blame.

Reiji, continued to kill after the events at harbour. He was not forced to serve Inferno, he could have ran away immediately. He wasn't manipulated either... he served them from his own free will. He could have used freedom given to him to ensure an escape route and run away. Yet, he left them only after Inferno decided that he needs to die.

And here we have Cal. She has as much freedom as Reiji, but also needed a job (as she coudn't survive without anything) and was manipulated by Scyhte. She enjojs her job more then Reiji, but she is still not enough to be called a psycho (like giving her targets slow and ugly death or being maniacal like Reiji was at harbour). It is just enough to put her on the same level of sin as Reiji.

Elen sined the least (she was brainwashed, hypnotised and drugged and didn't do anything after deciding to become Elen), but the other two are BOTH great sinners. Both served Inferno from their own free will.

I would go as far as to call Drei a psycho. Not once did Reiji or Elen toy with their opponents before killing them, they just went in killed and left. But Drei loves toying with her opponents, she throws the name Phantom around to intimidate her oppents. If you ask me, I would consider that to be pretty psycho.

[Nayrael]

I would go as far as to call Drei a psycho. Not once did Reiji or Elen toy with their opponents before killing them, they just went in killed and left. But Drei loves toying with her opponents, she throws the name Phantom around to intimidate her oppents. If you ask me, I would consider that to be pretty psycho.

For Ellen I would agree, but for Reiji I just remember the harbor scene.
What she does is enough to call her a sadistic assasin, but not a psycho. A psycho would do far worse things to the victim thus the word is overreacting.

And, no, I am not saying that she is a nice girl.

[Oppai]

Originally Posted by Nayrael

For Ellen I would agree, but for Reiji I just remember the harbor scene.
What she does is enough to call her a sadistic assasin, but not a psycho. A psycho would do far worse things to the victim thus the word is overreacting.

I would take that harbor scene as an exception as SM was involved. Im pretty sure that most of us would love for him to go in a slow and painful manner, I know I would.

[Nayrael]

I would take that harbor scene as an exception as SM was involved. Im pretty sure that most of us would love for him to go in a slow and painful manner, I know I would.

I am sure most people would not mind a druglord who no doubt screwed up lives of thousands of humans (and would still be screwing if he were alive) to go in such a maner either.
But playing with a target is playing. SM or druglord, they are the same. Both screw up people's lives and both are humans.

[Oppai]

Originally Posted by Nayrael

I am sure most people would not mind a druglord who no doubt screwed up lives of thousands of humans (and would still be screwing if he were alive) to go in such a maner either.
But playing with a target is playing. SM or druglord, they are the same. Both screw up people's lives and both are humans.

Yeah, but the SM situation at the Harbor was a one time deal as Reiji would be getting revenge and freeing Elen from his grip. Drei's action was during a regular job so one can asume that this is how she has acted on all her previous other jobs, finishing her opponents in a sadistic manner like you mentioned.The situations are different.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Oppai

I would take that harbor scene as an exception as SM was involved. Im pretty sure that most of us would love for him to go in a slow and painful manner, I know I would.

That would be so great to see. I don't think I've ever hated an antagonist this much before.

[Oppai]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

That would be so great to see. I don't think I've ever hated an antagonist this much before.

I agree, my most hated villan ever. Every time he is down he always gets a little lifeline, its so annoying, but I guess we wouldnt have much of a show without him.

[Nayrael]

Yeah, but the SM situation at the Harbor was a one time deal as Reiji would be getting revenge and freeing Elen from his grip. Drei's action was during a regular job so one can asume that this is how she has acted on all her previous other jobs, finishing her opponents in a sadistic manner like you mentioned.The situations are different.

He could have done that without going int opsycho mode as well. The reason he did not turn into something twisted was because Elen saved him. By shooting Elen because of his behaviour, he regreted what he had done and calmed down.
However, he did stay at Inferno and that is a sin as well. He could have left, but did not. No matter how he killed his targets, he killed them from his own free will and you can't blame a manipulator or anyone else here.

Cal, on the other hand, did not have someone to protect her. In fact, she had someone to turn her into something evil.
I am not saying that she is clean here, but it is not comepletely her fault either. Emotionaly vunerable and in hands of a master manipulator, it would have been hard to not become that what she did. The fact that her targets are usually evil assholes who screw up life of others probably doesn't help her in being merciful either, of course.

My point is: I do not disagree that she is sadistic. I do not disagree that it is partialy her fault either. But I strongly disagree that she had much choice with her life (we are talking about Scyhte here). I disagree strongly with her being unredeemable as well.

And I repeat: you have seen Drei in only one episode. There are still spieodes left to show her situation.

[Oppai]

Originally Posted by Nayrael

He could have done that without going int opsycho mode as well. The reason he did not turn into something twisted was because Elen saved him. By shooting Elen because of his behaviour, he regreted what he had done and calmed down.
However, he did stay at Inferno and that is a sin as well. He could have left, but did not. No matter how he killed his targets, he killed them from his own free will and you can't blame a manipulator or anyone else here.

Cal, on the other hand, did not have someone to protect her. In fact, she had someone to turn her into something evil.
I am not saying that she is clean here, but it is not comepletely her fault either. Emotionaly vunerable and in hands of a master manipulator, it would have been hard to not become that what she did. The fact that her targets are usually evil assholes who screw up life of others probably doesn't help her in being merciful either, of course.

My point is: I do not disagree that she is sadistic. I do not disagree that it is partialy her fault either. But I strongly disagree that she had much choice with her life (we are talking about Scyhte here). I disagree strongly with her being unredeemable as well.

And I repeat: you have seen Drei in only one episode. There are still spieodes left to show her situation.

Yes, he could of killed Scythe without going into psycho mode. But I dont think that Elen saved him. Scythe would have been Reiji's last kill as he would have escaped with her afterwards. She only made things worse.

Instead, Reiji was shot and most likely helped out by Claudia which would lead him back to inferno. Since his only plan involved Elen and he believed her to be dead he had nothing else but phantom. Similar to how Cal's only plan was Reiji which led her to following Scythe.

But according to Scythe the only thing that he did was awaken the hatred that was already there. I can grasp why she would want to be sadistic towards Reiji but I dont really see why she would be like that towards other people. You could argue that she is sadistic towards them because they are gangsters and they had some influence in the death of Judy. If that is the case, where does that leave her? She joined the very organizations the lead to her sisters death.

I'm sorry if I made it seem like I though as Cal as unredeemable, as it was not my intention.

Im just saying that to me her behavior of being sadistic towards her opponents is not really justified by the infromation that has been revealed to us so far.

[Nayrael]

Yes, he could of killed Scythe without going into psycho mode. But I dont think that Elen saved him. Scythe would have been Reiji's last kill as he would have escaped with her afterwards. She only made things worse.

She didn't actually mean to jump in front of the bullet, but put herself between him and Scyhte so that Reiji woudn't shoot and "destroy his own soul" (remember episode 20, she is quite a religious lass). The plan didn't go well tough.
And Beetrain ceartanly didn't make him look psycho for no reason. They wanted to show into what he was turning into. Regret for what he had done no doubt made him calm down. He was turned into that with hatred... the same thing that now controls Drei.

Instead, Reiji was shot and most likely helped out by Claudia which would lead him back to inferno. Since his only plan involved Elen and he believed her to be dead he had nothing else but phantom. Similar to how Cal's only plan was Reiji which led her to following Scythe.

You can't deny that he sinned by staying with Inferno tough. He wasn't forced or manipulated. He decided it from his own free will and had no justifiable reason. Depression that he is alone does not make him look better. He commited a great sin there.

But according to Scythe the only thing that he did was awaken the hatred that was already there.

He awoke that hatred through manipulation. Truth, modified truth, lies, fabricated proofs, good choice of words... those are things used in manipulation. He used all of that to piss her off.

I can grasp why she would want to be sadistic towards Reiji but I dont really see why she would be like that towards other people. You could argue that she is sadistic towards them because they are gangsters and they had some influence in the death of Judy.

Nope, I am not saying that she does it because they are gangsters but that she does not mind doing that to them because they are gangsters.

She is sadistic because Scyhte wants her to be like that. If you listened to her during ep16, you can see that she turned into the opposite of what she wanted to be and thats what is tragic here. Look at Scyhte and it becomes obvious why.
Like he manipulated Ein, so he is manipulating her now. Different methods and results, but the same thing more or less: both kill where he points and both do it in different way but still in a way he wants it done (he wanted her to attack that restaurant, it is obvious from every word he says to Lizzie). Like Ein was a weapon to him, so is Drei. You can call Ein a pistol and Drei a bazooka. Different way of handling them, different results, different look... but both are usable in their own ways... and both girls are his slaves, again handled in different ways.
After all, he is the villain #1. We saw all this coming since the end of episode 19 (he would not tell her "Indeed, you were deceived!" if he wanted to just brainwash her).

She is evil, no doubting there. But saying that she actually had a choice in the matter is oversimplification. She is just another victim of that white haired guy we all "love" so much. And a victim that should be saved.

If that is the case, where does that leave her? She joined the very organizations the lead to her sisters death.

Scyhte already told entire Inferno that all those scandals were commited by Claudia and her Phantom. Tell her the same thing, and she will also believe that Claudia is the one to blame and that Inferno is just another victim like her. The guy is a master liar after all.

[Oppai]

Originally Posted by Nayrael

She is sadistic because Scyhte wants her to be like that. If you listened to her during ep16, you can see that she turned into the opposite of what she wanted to be and thats what is tragic here. Look at Scyhte and it becomes obvious why.
Like he manipulated Ein, so he is manipulating her now. Different methods and results, but the same thing more or less: both kill where he points and both do it in different way but still in a way he wants it done (he wanted her to attack that restaurant, it is obvious from every word he says to Lizzie). Like Ein was a weapon to him, so is Drei. You can call Ein a pistol and Drei a bazooka. Different way of handling them, different results, different look... but both are usable in their own ways... and both girls are his slaves, again handled in different ways.
After all, he is the villain #1. We saw all this coming since the end of episode 19 (he would not tell her "Indeed, you were deceived!" if he wanted to just brainwash her).

I disagree that she is sadistic because he wants her to be like that. scythe said that to truly take over as phantom she would have to kill Reiji, in order to become "flexible and steady". The objective was to kill Reiji, which Drei could have easily done during the bench scene with Mio, when she shot the key chan off the bag. In my opinion her hatred might have come from Scythe but not her sadism. You can look back at the shower scene in the last episode where Scythe asks Drei if she Made contact with Zwei. Her response was "Its none of your business", she also mentioned that she would do things her way. Which to me meant that instead of just killing him quickly and getting it over with, she was going to play around and torture him a bit. If the sadism came from Scythe that scene would have been different in my opinion.

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

That would be so great to see. I don't think I've ever hated an antagonist this much before.

I would actually pay money for a separate DVD that has the many ways of SM dying by various people in the series. I would even pay the absurd amount of money for the import bluray disk just so i can see him get tortured in that much more detail. Its been a while since iv despised a character this bad. But the more i hate the more that means the writers are doing a kick ass job.

Watching SM get tortured to death $60 bluray DVD

watching SM getting tortured continuously in high def with the capablity of rewinding and slow motion feature PRICELESS

[Oppai]

Originally Posted by Sinestra

I would actually pay money for a separate DVD that has the many ways of SM dying by various people in the series. I would even pay the absurd amount of money for the import bluray disk just so i can see him get tortured in that much more detail. Its been a while since iv despised a character this bad. But the more i hate the more that means the writers are doing a kick ass job.

Watching SM get tortured to death $60 bluray DVD

watching SM getting tortured continuously in high def with the capablity of rewinding and slow motion feature PRICELESS

LOL, you and me both.
Preferred method of dead: Repeated stabs on the back by Swei during one of his little Ein licking sessions.

On a serious note: Does anyone know of if the US version of the DVD will come with the nice Ein reversible case covers ?

[Nayrael]

I disagree that she is sadistic because he wants her to be like that. scythe said that to truly take over as phantom she would have to kill Reiji, in order to become "flexible and steady". The objective was to kill Reiji, which Drei could have easily done during the bench scene with Mio, when she shot the key chan off the bag. In my opinion her hatred might have come from Scythe but not her sadism. You can look back at the shower scene in the last episode where Scythe asks Drei if she Made contact with Zwei. Her response was "Its none of your business", she also mentioned that she would do things her way. Which to me meant that instead of just killing him quickly and getting it over with, she was going to play around and torture him a bit. If the sadism came from Scythe that scene would have been different in my opinion.

Actrually, hatred comes from her and sadism appearced as the hatred, with help of Scyhte, grew. She was always vunerable to that feeling after all (paying Reiji to kill everyone who caused Judy's death), tough it wasn't so critical. A lot of people would want revenge.

And don't look at what Scyhte says to others, but what he does. Remember who told Zwei that Ein and Drei are gonna fight at the church and that he should better hurry if he wants to save Ein. Obviously, he himself doesn't like the idea of ending the "play" quickly. He WANTS her to create a scene. If he wanted for things to go smoothly, he woudn't inform Zwei of what Drei is currently doing and thus he reduced the chances of her ending this quickly. All this seems to entertain him and thus all seems to go exactly as his twisted mind wants it to go: no quick jobs, just "an interesting play".

[Oppai]

Originally Posted by Nayrael

Actrually, hatred comes from her and sadism appearced as the hatred, with help of Scyhte, grew. She was always vunerable to that feeling after all (paying Reiji to kill everyone who caused Judy's death), tough it wasn't so critical. A lot of people would want revenge.

And don't look at what Scyhte says to others, but what he does. Remember who told Zwei that Ein and Drei are gonna fight at the church and that he should better hurry if he wants to save Ein. Obviously, he himself doesn't like the idea of ending the "play" quickly. He WANTS her to create a scene. If he wanted for things to go smoothly, he woudn't inform Zwei of what Drei is currently doing and thus he reduced the chances of her ending this quickly. All this seems to entertain him and thus all seems to go exactly as his twisted mind wants it to go: no quick jobs, just "an interesting play".

I wouldnt necesarily say that he wants her to make a scene. Wanting her to be sadistic and wanting her to make a scene are different. I do agree all he is really intrested in seeing how this little soap opera plays out, he is a master of psychology, and a confrontation between those three is a case study that is just to sweet to pass. To me that is the only reason. The plan of molding Drei into flexible and steady did not include killing Elen, only Swei. Going after Elen was solely Drei's decision, although he probably saw what Drei was going and just ran with the little idea of telling Reiji.