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kakakka · 2009-08-07, 13:05

Quote:

The Shirou in Fate becomes Archer, which is pretty much the BAD END of all BAD ENDs.

Aren't all Shirou became Archer eventually?

willyvereb · 2009-08-07, 13:07

Being idealist isn't wrong. Being idealist at all costs IS wrong. Luckily Shirou proved to be not that.
The 3 Shirous only slightly differ from each other. The thing that made them differ so much the happenings. Fate Shirou has the same potencial of showing of that willpoer as the HF one, but he hasn't experienced the same thing.

And about the "serial killer Sakura". You know there's certain conditions that could alleviate the facts, like unstable mental condition. If someone wasn't him-or herself when the thing happened it even realse him=her of the charges according to the laws in almost every country.(perhaps they force them into assyliums or something like that, but it's annother matter and Sakura was alright after the incident..mostly)
Sakura wasn't herself and she was under the influence of Angra Mangryou. I think it's enough to make her "innocent" even to our society's laws. Even Zouken's and Shinji's killing is somehow righteous self-defense.
So forcing the law on sakura to condemn her isn't working.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kakakka

Aren't all Shirou became Archer eventually?

No. Actually even Fate Shirou has only 30% chance of becoming Archer. UBW one even lesser(maybe 5-10%). HF is a funny one: Either 0%(True end) or 100%(Normal end, Archer's spirit absorbs Shirou completely...so in some sense Shirou becomes Archer

).
In Fate Shirou don't become Archer because he experienced hope and he succeed defending almost anything he wanted. Archer was unsuccessfull and haunted by guilt the whole time. On the top of it he was more heartless(almost like Kirigisu). And he probably didn't have much romantic feelings towards any of the 3 heroines.
"Will of Steel" is an interesting "route"(actually a HF bad end). If Shirou takes that route I don't think he becomes Archer again. He becomes the exact copy of Kirigisu in mentality. And we well know Kirigisu never became a Heroic Spirit. But well, I give him a 50% chance in that case for becoming Archer.

kakakka · 2009-08-07, 13:22

In HF True End, Rin said something about Shirou being able to use his Blade Works more better using his new body, so I though Shirou => Archer has a possibility.

Though I would agree that UBW Archer can come from Fate Shirou. I mean, Fate Shirou is more idealistic than the other 2, so UBW Archer can possibly come from there.

Tyabann · 2009-08-07, 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by willyvereb

"Will of Steel" is an interesting "route"(actually a HF bad end). If Shirou takes that route I don't think he becomes Archer again. He becomes the exact copy of Kirigisu in mentality. And we well know Kirigisu never became a Heroic Spirit. But well, I give him a 50% chance in that case for becoming Archer.

That should have been a separate route entirely. I wanted to see Shirou take on Servants with nothing but his shitty Trace ability and still win.

willyvereb · 2009-08-07, 14:03

Well, I guess he kills the masters.It's easier and Shirou's alone.Imagine him killing Rin while he still thinks he's on their side. Then him killing Illya the same way. Or maybe he's getting help from Kotomine's servant Gilgamesh

...With him I think Shirou has little difficulties to win. Perhaps even Kotonmine may betray him in the end and Will of Steel Shirou's life ends much faster than we think.

Tyabann · 2009-08-07, 14:41

Huh, yeah, he probably would have done that.

I doubt Kotomine would have given him Gilgamesh, but at that point, with Rin, Ilya, and Sakura gone, after a few days, their servants, even Archer, would probably be dead. Unless they went to Shirou, Kotomine, or Zoken for prana, which I doubt any of them would do.

And with Lancer gone, Kotomine is technically no longer in that particular grail war... so really, it's just Zoken and Assassin left. Unless whatever Rin did to Sakura also destroyed his core.

In that case Shirou's already won after killing Rin and Ilya.

Flinch · 2009-08-07, 14:46

Ilya is one of the last few physical connections to Kiritsugu, I doubt he would even be able to bring himself to kill her if he was aware of that. When someone aids you in the same way Kiritsugu did, anything connected to them becomes far more precious than life itself.

Tyabann · 2009-08-07, 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flinch

Ilya is one of the last few physical connections to Kiritsugu, I doubt he would even be able to bring himself to kill her if he was aware of that. When someone aids you in the same way Kiritsugu did, anything connected to them becomes far more precious than life itself.

No, he would have killed her. Will/Mind of Steel Shirou has put everything behind him for the sake of his ideal. That's the point.

Besides he doesn't really know that she's Kiritsugu's daughter at that point.

willyvereb · 2009-08-07, 15:17

No...He knows it since a long time. Actually he heard about the Einsebens the first time he spoke with Kotomine. And he has some moments with Illya(otherwise he would be dead in one of the bad ends

). He knows it and I think he even apologises to her(maybe not verbally, but he thinks about it). But after shirou's killed the one he loves I doubt he'll hesitate to kill anyone else.

Tyabann · 2009-08-07, 15:21

Huh, I never remember her identity being actually stated in the text at all... just implied.

Flinch · 2009-08-07, 16:11

it's stated quite obviously in Fate/Zero

willyvereb · 2009-08-07, 16:16

Well, but obviously Shirou didn't read Fate/Zero before the Grail War.

(It's funny to imagine what would've happened if he DID read the light novels about the previous war.

)

Tyabann · 2009-08-07, 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flinch

it's stated quite obviously in Fate/Zero

Doesn't matter. As was said, Shirou doesn't know that.

He's figured it out by the time he rescues her from Black Berserker, but I'm not quite sure if he has by Mind of Steel.

willyvereb · 2009-08-07, 17:06

How lucky of me...I have especially a mind of steel save(I saved before every ending in a separate savefile...somehow I considered the "Mind of Steel" as an ending too.)

"Illya has been betrayed twice now"
That's what Shirou thought after his answer to Illya. So I guess he knew Illya was Kirigitsugu's daughter.

Flinch · 2009-08-07, 17:13

It's also fairly obvious what Kiritsugu tried to do since Shiro was about 12. Months at a time, all trying to get to the same place each time only to fail again and again. That's probably one of the saddest things in the Fate series.

Tyabann · 2009-08-07, 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by willyvereb

"Illya has been betrayed twice now"
That's what Shirou thought after his answer to Illya. So I guess he knew Illya was Kirigitsugu's daughter.

He already knew at that point that she had wanted revenge on him... she never said why.

But whatever. He still would probably have killed her at that point anyway, after turning his mind to steel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flinch

It's also fairly obvious what Kiritsugu tried to do since Shiro was about 12. Months at a time, all trying to get to the same place each time only to fail again and again. That's probably one of the saddest things in the Fate series.

Did Shirou know? He's incredibly stupid and doesn't notice what would be obvious to normal people, and for that matter I doubt Kiritsugu ever told him...

Flinch · 2009-08-07, 18:17

Not to Shiro, but to the reader. All Kiritsugu wanted at that point was to live in peace with Ilya, and the child who he saved amidst all the destruction, Shiro.

Kimiko Khan · 2009-08-10, 00:41

i think people don't give shirou and his ideal enough credit. many heroes have a mentality similar to his. In fate a lone Saber exhibits it, lancer does( though lancer unlike most other understands from the beginning that what happens happens and that he doesn't have to worry so long as he did his best). even gil does to extent though it doesn't show because of the corruption of the grail

Flinch · 2009-08-10, 01:27

If you ever read up on Arthurian Mythology, even Gawain, the court's 2nd/3rd best knight (Lancelot and Tristan were equal in all accounts, so 2nd/3rd by how you view things) saw things that way. Even after Lancelot killed all his siblings (Agravain, Gaheris and Gareth) and Gawain tried to kill him 3 times and failed each, he never wished that he could change it. All he wished was that Lancelot would forgive him for his rational hatred. Even at his death, he never wanted to change anything (well, he did love life more than anything, but that's beside the point).

willyvereb · 2009-08-10, 01:29

No...Kirigitsu's ideal was a nice one, but for about 99.9% of the people is just plain ridiculous. It was childish, because it was so "pure" it didn't make distinction between two human's life no matter how much attachment they may have. It was overly idealisitic and with that extremely devestating to oneself. Just look on Kirigitsu's life: He was treated like a villian, he didn't allow himself happines nor love, he wanted to save lives, but he killed instead. Kirigitsu's life was anything but not beutiful.
Saber has a somewhat similar life, but she only acted that way with the nameless masses. Lancer made difference between pople quite often. Gilgamesh's lived for the beutiful things(and to obtain them), he clearly made distinction between two different person's lives and he always placed himself to the front of importance.

So it's safe to say there wasn't any hero with the same ideals as Shirou or Kirigitsu. Or if it was the people remember them as villians more than heroes.
We don't have limitless powers so we can only save the ones we really want to. IF we want to save everyone we fail in the end because we can't put enough effort per individual by doing so.

Flinch: So Gawain was more like HF shirou. And same with Lancelot. The only actual way to save lives with the ideal Kirigitsu has is either becoming a merciless machine or having simply a ridiculous luck(Shirou...and it's advised being a protagonist of the story too!

)

2009-08-07, 14:03	Link #1445
willyvereb Mad Scientist #0000 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Hungry Age: 35	Well, I guess he kills the masters.It's easier and Shirou's alone.Imagine him killing Rin while he still thinks he's on their side. Then him killing Illya the same way. Or maybe he's getting help from Kotomine's servant Gilgamesh...With him I think Shirou has little difficulties to win. Perhaps even Kotonmine may betray him in the end and Will of Steel Shirou's life ends much faster than we think.

2009-08-07, 14:46	Link #1447
Flinch Onii-chan~ Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Einzbern Castle Age: 32	Ilya is one of the last few physical connections to Kiritsugu, I doubt he would even be able to bring himself to kill her if he was aware of that. When someone aids you in the same way Kiritsugu did, anything connected to them becomes far more precious than life itself. __________________

2009-08-07, 15:17	Link #1449
willyvereb Mad Scientist #0000 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Hungry Age: 35	No...He knows it since a long time. Actually he heard about the Einsebens the first time he spoke with Kotomine. And he has some moments with Illya(otherwise he would be dead in one of the bad ends). He knows it and I think he even apologises to her(maybe not verbally, but he thinks about it). But after shirou's killed the one he loves I doubt he'll hesitate to kill anyone else.

2009-08-07, 16:11	Link #1451
Flinch Onii-chan~ Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Einzbern Castle Age: 32	it's stated quite obviously in Fate/Zero __________________

2009-08-07, 17:13	Link #1455
Flinch Onii-chan~ Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Einzbern Castle Age: 32	It's also fairly obvious what Kiritsugu tried to do since Shiro was about 12. Months at a time, all trying to get to the same place each time only to fail again and again. That's probably one of the saddest things in the Fate series. __________________

2009-08-07, 13:22	Link #1443
kakakka Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	In HF True End, Rin said something about Shirou being able to use his Blade Works more better using his new body, so I though Shirou => Archer has a possibility. Though I would agree that UBW Archer can come from Fate Shirou. I mean, Fate Shirou is more idealistic than the other 2, so UBW Archer can possibly come from there.

2009-08-07, 14:41	Link #1446
Tyabann Homo Ludens Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Canada Age: 34	Huh, yeah, he probably would have done that. I doubt Kotomine would have given him Gilgamesh, but at that point, with Rin, Ilya, and Sakura gone, after a few days, their servants, even Archer, would probably be dead. Unless they went to Shirou, Kotomine, or Zoken for prana, which I doubt any of them would do. And with Lancer gone, Kotomine is technically no longer in that particular grail war... so really, it's just Zoken and Assassin left. Unless whatever Rin did to Sakura also destroyed his core. In that case Shirou's already won after killing Rin and Ilya.

2009-08-07, 15:21	Link #1450
Tyabann Homo Ludens Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Canada Age: 34	Huh, I never remember her identity being actually stated in the text at all... just implied.

2009-08-07, 16:16	Link #1452
willyvereb Mad Scientist #0000 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Hungry Age: 35	Well, but obviously Shirou didn't read Fate/Zero before the Grail War. (It's funny to imagine what would've happened if he DID read the light novels about the previous war. )

2009-08-07, 17:06	Link #1454
willyvereb Mad Scientist #0000 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Hungry Age: 35	How lucky of me...I have especially a mind of steel save(I saved before every ending in a separate savefile...somehow I considered the "Mind of Steel" as an ending too.) "Illya has been betrayed twice now" That's what Shirou thought after his answer to Illya. So I guess he knew Illya was Kirigitsugu's daughter.

2009-08-07, 18:17	Link #1457
Flinch Onii-chan~ Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Einzbern Castle Age: 32	Not to Shiro, but to the reader. All Kiritsugu wanted at that point was to live in peace with Ilya, and the child who he saved amidst all the destruction, Shiro. __________________

2009-08-10, 00:41	Link #1458
Kimiko Khan reality has no meaning Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: somewhere within the dark chaos that is my mind Age: 34	i think people don't give shirou and his ideal enough credit. many heroes have a mentality similar to his. In fate a lone Saber exhibits it, lancer does( though lancer unlike most other understands from the beginning that what happens happens and that he doesn't have to worry so long as he did his best). even gil does to extent though it doesn't show because of the corruption of the grail __________________

2009-08-10, 01:27	Link #1459
Flinch Onii-chan~ Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Einzbern Castle Age: 32	If you ever read up on Arthurian Mythology, even Gawain, the court's 2nd/3rd best knight (Lancelot and Tristan were equal in all accounts, so 2nd/3rd by how you view things) saw things that way. Even after Lancelot killed all his siblings (Agravain, Gaheris and Gareth) and Gawain tried to kill him 3 times and failed each, he never wished that he could change it. All he wished was that Lancelot would forgive him for his rational hatred. Even at his death, he never wanted to change anything (well, he did love life more than anything, but that's beside the point). __________________

2009-08-10, 01:29	Link #1460
willyvereb Mad Scientist #0000 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Hungry Age: 35	No...Kirigitsu's ideal was a nice one, but for about 99.9% of the people is just plain ridiculous. It was childish, because it was so "pure" it didn't make distinction between two human's life no matter how much attachment they may have. It was overly idealisitic and with that extremely devestating to oneself. Just look on Kirigitsu's life: He was treated like a villian, he didn't allow himself happines nor love, he wanted to save lives, but he killed instead. Kirigitsu's life was anything but not beutiful. Saber has a somewhat similar life, but she only acted that way with the nameless masses. Lancer made difference between pople quite often. Gilgamesh's lived for the beutiful things(and to obtain them), he clearly made distinction between two different person's lives and he always placed himself to the front of importance. So it's safe to say there wasn't any hero with the same ideals as Shirou or Kirigitsu. Or if it was the people remember them as villians more than heroes. We don't have limitless powers so we can only save the ones we really want to. IF we want to save everyone we fail in the end because we can't put enough effort per individual by doing so. Flinch: So Gawain was more like HF shirou. And same with Lancelot. The only actual way to save lives with the ideal Kirigitsu has is either becoming a merciless machine or having simply a ridiculous luck(Shirou...and it's advised being a protagonist of the story too!)