[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

If it's that important, why does it wait until ep4? Without ep4, can we reach the same conclusion in ep1-3? I find it somewhat hard to swallow, honestly. Depending on how we view the Ange scenes in ep4, it's not even clear that this is information Battler was ever supposed to have. I'm not totally sure he ever does have it, but let's assume it is transmitted to him at the end of ep4 or in ep5. Isn't that somewhat problematic? Why didn't it come directly from Beatrice, this essential rule?

It might be because Beatrice wasn't allowed to give him that info. We do know that the game isn't solvable until EP4, and this might have been the reason for that. Even so, the simple fact that both Shannon and Kanon appear to revive after their deaths is significant, since nothing remotely like that has ever happened in any other game. Add on the fact that Shannon and Kanon behave in an incredibly weird manner in EP2, and it's possible to get the base parts of the theory in place.

[DaBackpack]

About this key: isn't it as simple as having someone take the culprit's place in the closed room?

I'll use the EP1 parlor murders as an example. I realize that this is not a "chain-lock closed room", but this is just an example of how something could of been done in EP6-fashion:

Let's say the culprit faked their death in the First Twilight. He/she was inside the room and killed the people in the parlor with the stakes. Culprit exits, but runs into Maria. Maria "rescues" the culprit (by locking the door) and sings in the back of the room.

For the rest of the murders, it goes like this:

The culprit, if every existing character is accounted for by Battler, is someone whose death is faked. The culprit normally kills most of the people in the rooms (with the exception of one), but begins to leave and runs into another character. They somehow mortally wound the last victim, but the victim runs inside the room to defend themselves! They lock the room from the inside in fear of the culprit and die inside.
This is implied in EP6 with Kanon does not exist inside the guest room. Either Kanon represents "another personality" or Kanon is dead inside the guest room. I personally believe the latter, and if the Meta-World allegory is to be believed, then Piece-Erika killed Kanon. That would complete the First Twilight, after all (I'm a fan of parallelism )

In the EP6 closed room, Battler represents the culprit of the closed rooms (from EP1-EP4), while Kanon represents the rescuer.

Is there anything that contradicts this directly?

Maybe problems will arise with the EP2 Jessica "death", but if you believe that to be a faked death then that's fine.

One (if all) of the following could be our key:

*Faked deaths
*The "rescuer"
*Mortal, yet non-immediately killing, wounds

Edit: The dichotomy between "human" and "person" in EP6 is evident with the denial of Erika's existence, so it may provide reasoning for Kanon does not exist inside the guest room. Unless it is just a translation thing, like it has been said to be.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

*snip*

I don't think anyone here disagrees with that assessment. Well not completely anyway.

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

*Faked deaths
*The "rescuer"
*Mortal, yet non-immediately killing, wounds

Interesting thought. Maybe while the first twilights are usually faked maybe the second twilight is usually an instant death? What you said seems to follow the part of the definition where 'after your attacked you become incapable of action', and that it can take 'from several seconds to several minutes' to die from it.

and Jessica said George's murder was an 'instant death' in episode 4 so...

[UsagiTenpura]

From replaying arc 1, it seriously feel like the following:

Maria knows that fake murders are planned.
She doesn't know that real murders actually occured instead.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

From replaying arc 1, it seriously feel like the following:

Maria knows that fake murders are planned.
She doesn't know that real murders actually occured instead.

To me, it seems more like she truly expects that everyone will revive. So she doesn't view the murders as real murders, but just a temporary prank that will be over once they reach "the Golden Land". Probably different from what you're saying here, I guess, but it should end up looking nearly the same.

[UsagiTenpura]

Well uum... the problem I have with this is that she did fake her own death.
Both in arc 5 and 6.

So if you're right it basically suggest that Maria doesn't know the difference between faking death and real death. Then again that could explain why she supposedly didn't react when Rosa was killed in the same room as her's.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Then again that could explain why she supposedly didn't react when Rosa was killed in the same room as her's.

That's still really weird since Maria was shown to be angry enough to attack someone when Rosa was "killed" in the scene before that, and then Erika says Maria didn't react when she killed her. So one perspective or the other must be lying.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Well uum... the problem I have with this is that she did fake her own death.
Both in arc 5 and 6.

So if you're right it basically suggest that Maria doesn't know the difference between faking death and real death. Then again that could explain why she supposedly didn't react when Rosa was killed in the same room as her's.

Ah, well, I have a different take on the core arcs than most of the people on this board. For me, the faked deaths are a sign that "Beatrice" has been eliminated as a piece, just as she's been bound in place in the meta-world, and is no longer responsible for killing anyone. In both games, Battler is almost certainly part of the group plotting the fake murders (something that couldn't possibly have happened in the question arcs), which makes me think that he's talked with "Beatrice" and convinced her not to go through with the actual murders.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Ah, well, I have a different take on the core arcs than most of the people on this board. For me, the faked deaths are a sign that "Beatrice" has been eliminated as a piece, just as she's been bound in place in the meta-world, and is no longer responsible for killing anyone. In both games, Battler is almost certainly part of the group plotting the fake murders (something that couldn't possibly have happened in the question arcs), which makes me think that he's talked with "Beatrice" and convinced her not to go through with the actual murders.

Well if that's the case you should include episode 4 as well. Since the game this starts to happen in seems to be in episode 4 after someone starts preventing Beatrice's letters from being delivered to Maria. In episode 5 the person who does this is presumably Erika.

[UsagiTenpura]

Actually I'm going to establish something very weird about the whole faking death thing.

So far only arc 5 and 6's first twilights are 100% confirmed to be fake. However it's ridiculously likely that at least the first twilight in arc 4 didn't occur like Gohda/Kumasawa described it. Actually since the whole thing is the most insane fantasy scene that people reported to actually have occured, I don't see many ways of believing it's anything else then fake.

So if you're willing to accept at least arc 4's first twilight is fake it means that... (and to twist it I'll say that Krauss possibly really died in the first twilight of arc 5).

Natsuhi, Jessica, Eva, Hideyoshi, George, Rudolph, Kyrie, Battler, Rosa, Maria, Genji are the minimal list of people who faked their death.

Krauss, Jessica, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolph, Kyrie, Gohda, Kumasawa, Nanjo is the minimal list of people who helped fake the other's death (made a false claim at least once).

Oddly enough that makes EVERYONE involving in fake death at one point or another, except Shannon or Kanon. However that's on first twilight of arc 4-5-6 alone. Through various arcs, especially Kanon arc 1, it's very hard to believe none of them ever faked their death.

My point in all of this. No matter who's aware at first about the "fake death", the planner of it has somehow the leverage to make everyone else go along with it. Possibly due to something like Kinzo's will or the promise of some of the gold, tho some people's motivation seems hard to understand in both case.

Actually outside of a Kinzo's will, I really don't see any solution as to why everyone would play along. Even with Kinzo's will, I sorta don't get the idea clearly.

@Judoh
That's also how I feel, I think it's "a safer" bet for now to assume Maria knows the difference between the two, and that one of them is definitively not a prank.

[Titanguy654]

Battler comes up with the "culprit locks door after being attacked trick" in Episode 3, to which Beatrice responds:

The six people died instantly!

So that theory doesn't work for this game.

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by Titanguy654

Battler comes up with the "culprit locks door after being attacked trick" in Episode 3, to which Beatrice responds:

The six people died instantly!

So that theory doesn't work for this game.

That's true. But consider this.

Battler asks if anybody faked their deaths, but Beatrice states that the six people inside the rooms were certainly dead. Remember, though, that Kinzo is one of them. I think Kinzo's corpse is a key factor of this closed room set.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Titanguy654

Battler comes up with the "culprit locks door after being attacked trick" in Episode 3, to which Beatrice responds:

The six people died instantly!

So that theory doesn't work for this game.

One theory would be that they were not attacked when forming the closed room. Though Kinzo obviously can't lock the room he's in himself... which is a problem if that alleged retcon of the courtyard doors in the boiler room is true. If it isn't, Kinzo's easy enough.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Ah, well, I have a different take on the core arcs than most of the people on this board. For me, the faked deaths are a sign that "Beatrice" has been eliminated as a piece, just as she's been bound in place in the meta-world, and is no longer responsible for killing anyone. In both games, Battler is almost certainly part of the group plotting the fake murders (something that couldn't possibly have happened in the question arcs), which makes me think that he's talked with "Beatrice" and convinced her not to go through with the actual murders.

That's an interesting idea, but it implies the culprit is Beatrice. That's probably why I find it interesting, it means you found a reason for murder that evades all the red said in arc 5 after her motive.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

That's an interesting idea, but it implies the culprit is Beatrice. That's probably why I find it interesting, it means you found a reason for murder that evades all the red said in arc 5 after her motive.

If I remember right the motive he gave for Shkanontrice before was that (knowing Battler likes mysteries) she wanted to create a real life murder mystery for him to solve and acted it out.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

If I remember right the motive he gave for Shkanontrice before was that (knowing Battler likes mysteries) she wanted to create a real life murder mystery for him to solve and acted it out.

Actually, it was that she wanted to create a perfect lie about the entire ceremony, including the arrival at the Golden Land at the end. Letting everyone reach the Golden Land would be her true goal. Of course, what happens to the soul after death is a cat box, so no one could ever prove that they didn't go to the Golden Land. If she could convince enough of the world that this is indeed what happened, then it would be written into history and become a permanent truth (using Beatrice truth logic). Which could probably be called an "endless magic".

Alternatively, it could be that she's just trying to convince Battler of this before dying with him.

[UsagiTenpura]

You'd have to determine what's called the Golden land then.
Because the "in game" definition of the Golden land so far was that rose garden where Beato played with Maria in arc 4 and where Battler Dlanor and Virgilia talk while watching a comatose Beato. My point is that it seems by your argument that Battler is already dead and already accepts being in the golden land. Beato should be overjoyed in arc 5, not "dying", and Battler should've remained with her in the golden land rather then go play with Bern/LD since Beato's goal would already been reached.

Actually arc 6 said that Battler believes Beato wished for him to drag her off the gameboard or something along those lines as being the main reason she started all of that no?

This is not to say I dislike your theory, but if that's part of Beato's motive it doesn't feel, at the least, complete.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

You'd have to determine what's called the Golden land then.
Because the "in game" definition of the Golden land so far was that rose garden where Beato played with Maria in arc 4 and where Battler Dlanor and Virgilia talk while watching a comatose Beato. My point is that it seems by your argument that Battler is already dead and already accepts being in the golden land. Beato should be overjoyed in arc 5, not "dying", and Battler should've remained with her in the golden land rather then go play with Bern/LD since Beato's goal would already been reached.

Actually arc 6 said that Battler believes Beato wished for him to drag her off the gameboard or something along those lines as being the main reason she started all of that no?

This is not to say I dislike your theory, but if that's part of Beato's motive it doesn't feel, at the least, complete.

Actually, that version of the theory has been around for a while. I don't think it's wrong per se, but I'm working on a better way to set the stage for it.

As for what the Golden Land is, I'm talking about what Shannon and Kanon were discussing in EP4 and EP6. The place that "doesn't exist in this world", where all desires are granted and furniture can become human.

[Kylon99]

There's also the definition of the Golden Land being the gold of the epitaph, or where it's stored. Also the bank vault money was called 'small golden land' in one of the TIPs (or rather the number code was said to open a 'small golden land.')

These could be Kinzo versions of Golden Lands though, vs. Beatrice versions of Golden Land...

[UsagiTenpura]

Assuming a version of that theory is right, I'd be willing to say Beato's goal is more to convince Battler.
Alternatively, in arc 2's chapel, we're shown that every adults admits to Beato's existence (I believe Rosa remains silent I'll have to get there again). It's possible that those who dies are those who accepts the golden land.

Still I'm going to say it's more likely her main goal, at the very least, is to convince Battler of it. It was said over and over, that you need two people to create a world.