[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

How do we know where that line is? What evidence is there to demonstrate how the red works, and when that line of "death" is sufficiently crossed? That's exactly the problem. If dead means dead, we don't need to ask ourselves what the rules are. Dead is dead, full stop. It's when we try to weasel out of "death" meaning biological death that we start having all these questions in the first place.

[Kitsu]

How do we know where that line is? What evidence is there to demonstrate how the red works, and when that line of "death" is sufficiently crossed? That's exactly the problem. If dead means dead, we don't need to ask ourselves what the rules are. Dead is dead, full stop. It's when we try to weasel out of "death" meaning biological death that we start having all these questions in the first place.

How do we know that there is no line? We don't and this the problem. Until the cat box is opened both truth exists and we could argue all day without getting anywhere.
It is a possibility which you can't deny. You shouldn't try deny things that you can not. If there is something wrong with the theory that you can proof go ahead but this is just a feeling of yours. Don't get me wrong! I actually feel similair to you but maybe it's because I have a weird way to speculate about Umineko. I see almost every theory that has yet not been proven as possibility. Some I like, some I don't and some are temporary solutions.
If you want it...I believe in all theories. I have my preferences. For example I like Jessica=Shannon=Kanon more than Kanon=Shannon but in the end I think all solutions are plausible.
Working against theories because something doesn't feel right is a dead end.

[Disz]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

It is a possibility which you can't deny. You shouldn't try deny things that you can not.

Battler would like to think otherwise.

[Kitsu]

Battler would like to think otherwise.

Yup and look where he is now... a sorcerer. Seeing Renall as a crazy maid with a lot of personalities would be a cool sight but being serious...
Battler tried to deny the witch so badly that he ended up in a dead end himself. Beatrice's death and help of others brought him to truth not his stubborn witch defying side.

[Renall]

Generally, when something doesn't feel right, it isn't. If I'm not satisfied with an answer, there's probably a reason for it.

And to suggest that the more sensible position between "dead is dead" and "dead might mean dead, but maybe not" is the latter is insane.

[Kitsu]

Generally, when something doesn't feel right, it isn't. If I'm not satisfied with an answer, there's probably a reason for it.

And to suggest that the more sensible position between "dead is dead" and "dead might mean dead, but maybe not" is the latter is insane.

Dead means dead. Kanon is a false being that everyone knows. No one actually seemed to knew his real name. Kanon can die as soon as Yoshiya says he doesn't want to hold up his furniture side anymore. He does not exist anymore. Like Kinzo who is dead. There are even expressions as
"You are dead to me"
I don't know if this is the one used in english but I think you have something similair. Does that mean that this person is really dead? Nope. In my opinon you should stop dismissing things so easily and uphold as much possible solutions as possible. If you always just dismiss things and never think further you will never get to a solution that someday might feel right but who am I to give you advice.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Renall

My problem with Death-In-Name-Only (to encompass Character Death, Personality Death, Furniture Death, and any other variant in which "x is dead" permits the continued biological existence of x) is that it opens the door to the notion that death never actually means death.

It's a joke that people like Judoh trot out now and then, but I really don't see any reason for Kinzotrice to not be possible if names can die without their associated holder dying. "Kinzo is dead?" No problem! Fakes his apparent death, gets Nanjo to trick Krauss and Natsuhi into covering up his "death," shreds all his identification, changes his clothes, gets plastic surgery or mangles his own face, starts pretending he doesn't remember or know anyone he's ever interacted with. Bam, now he's... not-Kinzo. But still alive.

That's a silly and extreme example, of course, but to a lighter extent it does happen in every DINO concept, because once a person doesn't have to actually die they essentially "evade the red" because Battler will stop thinking about them as potential culprits. That's inherently dirty play on the part of the witch and the writer.

Even if you restrict it to just people who have more than one name, we've got more than enough spares floating around: Kanon and Yoshiya, Shannon and Sayo, Kinzo 2.0, Other Battler, MARIA, Jessie... if it was just two names per person permitted, you'd still have four or five people who could stay alive after being "killed in red" once.

How is that fair? How is that sporting? How is that trusting? How is that right? How is that sensible?

Heh it's weird but I actually agree with that.
Kanon was killed... I guess as long as you create the condition that will lead to his/her death that's fine, they can still do something until they die. For instance if I poison you with an uncurable poison that will take an hour to make you dead, I arguably just killed you.
Kanon does not exist in this room That's not being dead at all. Also arguably, "UsagiTenpura" does not exist I guess, but that's still far fetching it.
Kanon is dead Yeah, I think any logic that claims he is not dead is starting to arbitrarily decide so. If Ryukishi said so then yes, I believe it's rather dishonest of him.

Alternatively, it requires evidence that "dead" does not mean "dead".

However prove me wrong if I am, but I think outside of arc 3 few people's death are actually said in red in the form of "x character is dead"? I do think that anything else then claiming someone is dead in such a direct way, however, is very suspicious.


Edit: If Kanon/Shannon can "die because they do not exist", the I ask, how can something that does not even exist die?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Dead means dead. Kanon is a false being that everyone knows. No one actually seemed to knew his real name. Kanon can die as soon as Yoshiya says he doesn't want to hold up his furniture side anymore. He does not exist anymore. Like Kinzo who is dead. There are even expressions as
"You are dead to me"
I don't know if this is the one used in english but I think you have something similair. Does that mean that this person is really dead? Nope. In my opinon you should stop dismissing things so easily and uphold as much possible solutions as possible. If you always just dismiss things and never think further you will never get to a solution that someday might feel right but who am I to give you advice.

No. Go back and actually read the problems there are with being able to just declare "Kanon" dead and preserve Yoshiya/Shkanon/whomever. It's not that easy. The consequences are pretty problematic. I'm not saying it can't be possible, but if it is, so is Kinzotrice as far as we have any information to know.

[Kitsu]

No. Go back and actually read the problems there are with being able to just declare "Kanon" dead and preserve Yoshiya/Shkanon/whomever. It's not that easy. The consequences are pretty problematic. I'm not saying it can't be possible, but if it is, so is Kinzotrice as far as we have any information to know.

And I explained why we can safely limit this to Shannon and Kanon. Or to be precise Sayo and Yoshiya because they is difference between real names/ birth names and your examples. Also on the opposite to your examples it was said many times that those real names are really important and are special. Judoh mentioned that there was only one time in which Kanon was confirmed dead and later appeared in physical form. I'm sure you know that this was in episode 2. And I'm also sure you know how stressed the significant of his real name was during this death. Which was also the reason so many people were dissappointed that Kanon's name itself wasn't such a big surprise and found the name 'Yoshiya' underwhelming. If you ask me I say this are quits the hints that this 'Furniture death', this concept can only be applied to Shannon and Kanon.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

And I explained why we can safely limit this to Shannon and Kanon. Or to be precise Sayo and Yoshiya because they is difference between real names/ birth names and your examples. Also on the opposite to your examples it was said many times that those real names are really important and are special. Judoh mentioned that there was only one time in which Kanon was confirmed dead and later appeared in physical form. I'm sure you know that this was in episode 2. And I'm also sure you know how stressed the significant of his real name was during this death. Which was also the reason so many people were dissappointed that Kanon's name itself wasn't such a big surprise and found the name 'Yoshiya' underwhelming. If you ask me I say this are quits the hints that this 'Furniture death', this concept can only be applied to Shannon and Kanon.

You have absolutely no evidence or reason to believe that.

Also, how do we know "Yoshiya" is his name, again? Because the VN said so? When did Battler find out that information? Just sayin'...

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Renall

You have absolutely no evidence or reason to believe that.

Also, how do we know "Yoshiya" is his name, again? Because the VN said so? When did Battler find out that information? Just sayin'...

No way his real name is "zero on the roulette"!

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Renall

When did Battler find out that information? Just sayin'...

If I were to guess it would have to be some time between the Game master BATTLER tip and his creating of the game with meta Genji's assistance.

[Kitsu]

You have absolutely no evidence or reason to believe that.

My reason to believe that is stated just above. If you would please take your time to read it again. I believe so because Ryukishi whenever their real names are mentioned or people talk about them it is stressed how important they are. The word 'real' is also always present so we don't forget this are their real names. I see this very much as a hint that they are indeed important and have a special significant. But I think you should have got that from my last post. IIRC in Episode 6 shortly after his name is revealed Beatrice goes on about calling each other by their true name.

Also, how do we know "Yoshiya" is his name, again? Because the VN said so? When did Battler find out that information? Just sayin'...

I'm not gonna say anything about trusting the writer or anything because this simply supports another one of my points which you didn't get because you didn't read between the lines. It is not important what exactly his name is, it could have been Bernd for all we care. That's why Yoshiya seemed so underwhelming, it doesn't matter that it is Yoshiya. What is important is that it is his real name. You might have noticed that added up Yoshiya can also equal 16, right? You might have also noticed that one of the Trap Twins number was 16...but isn't there a much easier explanation why it had to be Yoshiya? Kanon/Yoshiya is 16 years old. So it is a name quickly drawn from a head with a stupid pun.

To be honest if you really can't see my point after this then it might be better to discuss this in private as this is going nowhere.
I know that the points I have listened are in no way evidences but they are hints that can be interpreted that way and give me a reason to believe in this as you said. Funny thing is that I don't really believe in it either but I just think dismissing something so easily is basically the same as to stop thinking and stubbornly refuse everything that isn't directly perfect.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

How do we know that there is no line? We don't and this the problem. Until the cat box is opened both truth exists and we could argue all day without getting anywhere.

I'm getting tired of this cat box concept being misused. Not like Ryukishi himself didn't start it, but it's getting worse than he ever took it. Everyone who uses it takes after Battler who uses it as an excuse to shut Erika up - 'two truths coexist'.

Well, it's a bloody lot more complicated than just that!

Truth of a fictional world is the product of an agreement between the readers and the writer. There is no cat and no box to actually be opened and demonstrated to the eager public -- a cat might exist for Battler, but it cannot possibly exist for us. Ryukishi may say that now he opened the cat box and the truth is out for everybody to see. He may also go and produce a "truer" truth in another episode after that.

Notice the word agreement. Unless a sufficiently good explanation is given by the author, the covenant between the reader and the writer is broken, readers call it hogwash and leave, at which point the truth does not exist at all.

[Kitsu]

I'm getting tired of this cat box concept being misused. Not like Ryukishi himself didn't start it, but it's getting worse than he ever took it. Everyone who uses it takes after Battler who uses it as an excuse to shut Erika up - 'two truths coexist'.

Guess why I used it, almost they same reason Battler used it. To actually kill a pointless discussion going nowhere which I sadly started....
He can't prove me wrong, I can't prove him wrong. I am not right, he is not right. We know shit.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

My reason to believe that is stated just above. If you would please take your time to read it again. I believe so because Ryukishi whenever their real names are mentioned or people talk about them it is stressed how important they are. The word 'real' is also always present so we don't forget this are their real names. I see this very much as a hint that they are indeed important and have a special significant. But I think you should have got that from my last post. IIRC in Episode 6 shortly after his name is revealed Beatrice goes on about calling each other by their true name.

Again, you have no way to be certain of this opinion of yours. If you want to posit that death isn't death, you don't get to arbitrarily decide whose deaths are or are not special. You also don't exactly have any way to tell whether "Sayo" and "Yoshiya" are real names... and if Shkanon is true, I would strongly suspect that they aren't any more real than "Kanon" and "Shannon."

I'm not gonna say anything about trusting the writer or anything because this simply supports another one of my points which you didn't get because you didn't read between the lines.

I don't need to "read between the lines." You need to make your points clear.

It is not important what exactly his name is it could have been Bernd for all we care. That's why Yoshiya seemed so underwhelming, it doesn't matter that it is Yoshiya. What is important is that it is his real name. You might have noticed that added up Yoshiya can also equal 16, right? You might have also noticed that one of the Trap Twins number was 16...but isn't there a much easier explanation why it had to be Yoshiya? Kanon/Yoshiya is 16 years old. So it is a name quickly drawn from a head with a stupid pun.

Wait, "it's not important what his name is" or is it? You just made a point about true names being important (something not actually backed up by much of anything), then admitted you aren't even really sure "Yoshiya" is Kanon's real name? Which one is it? That's inconsistent.

To be honest if you really can't see my point after this then it might be better to discuss this in private as this is going nowhere.

It's going nowhere because you're advancing unsubstantiated points in favor of no clear theory which requires them, then acting surprised when people note that it doesn't support anything concrete. Some people believe in a form of Name Death, some do not; however, there has to be a reason why Name Death should be allowed, and some hint as to its rules. "Kanon and Shannon are aliases" is insufficient when we have wide open Battler's ep4 blue - uncountered - about names as titles. If their work names can be titles, so can other things, and we don't know who those people even are.

I know that the points I have listened are in no way evidences but they are hints that can be interpreted that way and give me a reason to believe in this as you said. Funny thing is that I don't really believe in it either but I just think dismissing something so easily is basically the same as to stop thinking and stubbornly refuse everything that at first isn't perfect.

You're the one not thinking. Why is this important? Where are the rules? Where in the text are they explicitly or implicitly stated? If all you have is "hints," well, you're on the same level as just about any other scarcely-substantiated theory. Except I'm not clear on you actually having a theory, or that you are criticizing any existing one.

[Kitsu]

Again, you have no way to be certain of this opinion of yours

Have I ever stated that? I always said this is an possibility not yet ot be dismissed. Not that I think that it is the truth. I stated more than one time that I wouldn't bet my money on it. I could be very very wrong but it might also be true.

Wait, "it's not important what his name is" or is it? You just made a point about true names being important (something not actually backed up by much of anything), then admitted you aren't even really sure "Yoshiya" is Kanon's real name? Which one is it? That's inconsistent.

I hope I can make myself clear this time.
Yoshiya itself is not important. It could have been any name Battler felt like it! It doesn't matter what it is. It matters that there is. The importance of an true name is what I meant. No the importance of the actual name.

It's going nowhere because you're advancing unsubstantiated points in favor of no clear theory which requires them, then acting surprised when people note that it doesn't support anything concrete. Some people believe in a form of Name Death, some do not; however, there has to be a reason why Name Death should be allowed, and some hint as to its rules. "Kanon and Shannon are aliases" is insufficient when we have wide open Battler's ep4 blue - uncountered - about names as titles. If their work names can be titles, so can other things, and we don't know who those people even are.

You still don't get my point, do you? Let's use an example

Spoiler for example without game relevance:

George is dead
Kanon is dead
Where lies the difference? Exactly George is stated dead with his true name (go ahead and say that George isn't his name and start to doubt everything that isn't in red) while Kanon was never a true person to begin with. The true person is indeed Bernd. And if stated
Bernd is dead
It is goodbye for both Bernd and Kanon.

I get this importance of the real name from the game. Therefore I don't think you should call it unsubstantiated points if my favor if I at least try to back up with ideas from the actual game, all you seem to do in the moment is force your idea of right and wrong on me. You even say it yourself

Generally, when something doesn't feel right, it isn't. If I'm not satisfied with an answer, there's probably a reason for it.

And to suggest that the more sensible position between "dead is dead" and "dead might mean dead, but maybe not" is the latter is insane.

I interpret stuff on text basis you on your opinion.

You're the one not thinking. Why is this important? Where are the rules? Where in the text are they explicitly or implicitly stated? If all you have is "hints," well, you're on the same level as just about any other scarcely-substantiated theory. Except I'm not clear on you actually having a theory, or that you are criticizing any existing one.

Did you know that all we have is just hints? That no one has the truth reached yet because nothing was confirmed yet? All we do have is hints. If you don't wanna use them, don't but then you have nothing left but maybe the red truth. Which alone is not gonna let you solve this game.
Why are we discussing this game at all? I mean we wont get any confirmation until Ryukishi releases it so discussing is pointless (as we only have hints) because we can never now if we are right or wrong . Only the word of god can confirm if certain stuff i important or not until then we are all...wrong until proven otherwise.
And I stated before what my theories are. Everything that I can think of and might be possible.
This includes Shkanontrice, KinzoKanon etc. I try all kind of things and protect all possibilities. I'm an an undecisive person. You want the theory I am now working on? I'm working on changing things the Shkanontrice theory that might clear up some stuff which owuld have made it impossible. You might not know it but Shkannontrice is my least favorite theory. I still work on it because it is plausible.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Renall

You also don't exactly have any way to tell whether "Sayo" and "Yoshiya" are real names... and if Shkanon is true, I would strongly suspect that they aren't any more real than "Kanon" and "Shannon."

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Yoshiya itself is not important. It could have been any name Battler felt like it! It doesn't matter what it is. It matters that there is. The importance of an true name is what I meant. No the importance of the actual name.

How do you define a name is "real" or not? The way I see it a name can only be an inherently "fake name" if you're using someone else's name. Any names that exclusively refers to the same entity are all equally valid, wether or not they are recognized by an official authority.

[Pika_power]

Furniture death creates a fair few problems. e.g.

[Request: 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'] Acknowledged.
[It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.

Let's go with the idea of furniture names not really counting. Following this logic:

Shannon is in the next room over
Everyone else (ergo, Sayo) is in the cousins' room.

[Moogleking]

Isn't it enough that it is stressed that Shannon and Kanon aren't there real names? And that they are shown alive again in later scenes?

Here is the TIPS for episode 1: "Furthermore, Shannon is nothing more than a pseudonym that she uses when on duty, not her real name."
A similar tip is there for Kanon.

This satisfies Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!!

You don't have to believe that this is true, but to say it is completely unsubstantiated is a little ridiculous.