US Elections 2012 Part I: The Primaries/Caucus

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Mentar

While I'd rather suggest Social Democrats as name, THAT would be no reason against it. Those people who are frothing at the mouth over "European Socialism" wouldn't vote for it anyway, so they're no loss.

That's the bulk of Americans who'd run away from it, and I don't blame them.
I absolutely hate socialism.
It's caused the deaths of approximately 200 million people in the 20th century.
Hell, Lenin's War Communism alone killed 7,000,000 people via starvation.
American's are correct in not wanting that.

Let me be blunt for a minute: One of the major problems in America is that around half of its population is boorishly ignorant of world matters. This half is simply believing the "Exceptionalist America best in everything" BS that is peddled by most of the Mass Media and are clueless about the world. If they knew that the richer half of Europe was doing just swell with every citizen simply being entitled to housing, food, education and healthcare, it might have an effect on the political situation in America, too. Instead, we have the absurd situation that what polls show the majority of Americans WANT is what they can't GET because the "if you want that we'd 'fail' like socialist Europe" propaganda runs unchecked. This is why America is third-world level in social policy, and falling behind more and more.

No it wouldn't.
Americans are more concerned about control.
What level of control over their own lives do they have to give up for the "free" healthcare, housing, and food?
With the exception of a minority of citizens, Americans would rather have their freedom than government hand-outs, and I whole heartily agree.
Citizens of the US don't mind helping the poor out and trying to help them get a leg up, but we're not keen on creating a serf class here.
We want our people to succeed on their own and not have to be taken care of.
Europe is an entirely different matter for the most part.
As you yourself have just mentioned.
Therefore, you have to understand we're not "boorishly" ignorant.
We just don't like being serfs.

Every formally democratic people has the goverment they deserve. Boorish ignorance, as I said. I could also imagine that if this kind of discussion was ever _truly_ initiated and the facts would be properly discussed in a free media, it COULD change some mindset on the other hand, too. You think that the people standing in line to get jobs or unemployment benefits could be persuaded to vote for proper social coverage? That they would kinda like proper healthcare? I think that many would.

I agree.
We do have the government we deserve because we haven't kept the statists, corporatists, and elitists in check in our country.
We have too many quackademics in our classrooms producing ideological, and politically driven politicians, businessmen, and scientists.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance and we Americans have not been vigiliant.

Then again, America is the land where the MSM claim that Global Warming is just a theory (instead of the vast consensus of the scientific community), and where Intelligent Design is forced into schoolbooks. So, it's not unlikely that a proper discussion about social policy worldwide simply can't be properly led in America.

AGW is a fairytale, which is why the "scientists" who support it are either reversing themselves or being investigated by the US congress.
While pollution is VERY real, we don't need charlatans exploiting the issue for their own poltical agendas: i.e. the Big Oil companies using the Red turned Green eco-commies to peddle the idea of carbon-taxes so that Big Oil can charge more money for the same product and reap an enormous profit.
While at the same time Big Oil is funding the "deniers" in order to ultimately crush alternative fuels that would interferre with the production of Oil.
It reminds me of Frank Herbert's Dune: "The spice must flow."
I'll add this also.
When I was a kid back in the 1970s, my father was concerned about Global Cooling because of aerosals. We were told that if we didn't change how we lived that there would be a new Ice Age.Now, let me ask all of you who are cooking in triple digit temps (F) right now.
Are we living in a friggin Ice Age?
No, we're not.
Nor will there be some AlGorian Apocalypse because of our cars either.
The real issue here is actual pollution and politcal power.

If we really wanted to stop the pollution of our environment we'd be screaming for congress to release all of the Solar, Wind, and Hydrogen engine patents that Big Oil is sitting on into public domain.
Anyone who actually studies the phenomena of Global Warming knows that its Heliogenic in nature, unless you're trying to protect a nice, big, fat government grant...then it's man-made.
Anyone who actually thinks that the CO2 from humans is causing Global temp fluctuations on Earth needs to consider that at the same time there is also warming on Mars, and Venus.
And if you believe that we humans can do that, then you've got more problems than Polar Bears populations that were supposed to shrink.
You see in America, just because someone with a PHD says its so, doesn't make it so.
We're allergic to bullshit.

And there is NO intelligent design discussed in US public school classrooms (in fact there's not much intelligence there period ), so I don't know where you're getting your info from but it's not accurate.
Religious and Private schools have the right to teach it in America, and that's how it should be in a free society.

Makes no sense. If there are retards, try to educate them. Surrendering your country to one party of open corruption (GOP) where the politicians are openly bought to serve their uncaring elites' and corporations overlords, who live the "I got mine, screw you" to the fullest, and to one party of hypocrisy, where senators and house representatives pay lip service to the people until they're in office, when they turn into carbon copies of their GOP colleagues and merely get paid off by other corporations? That's the solution?

Yes the corruption in the USA is a definite problem, but then again, Europe is suffering from it's own level of corrupt and decadent system.
Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy, France, and even Germany are in economic trouble due to their entitlement programs.
You know the old saying, take the log out of your eye before you bitch about the splinter in mine?

No, what I can see is simple. Those in America who are super-rich have won, they own the country. Those who are rich are desperately struggling to stay that way. Many of those who are wealthy are beginning to struggle and drop. The middle-class disintegrates in an increasing pace, lots of people who once lived and touted the American Dream are now waking up in the American Nightmare (and it's interesting and sad if you compare what they were writing 5 years ago compared to now). And if you've dropped below that, welcome to hell. Then you'd be better off in Greece than at home. But this truth must never become known.

No, it is an International cabal of extremely rich individuals that have won.
You know, people like this clown:
Give me control of a nations money supply, and I care not who makes it’s laws. Mater Amschel Rothschild, founder of the Rothschild banking dynasty.

You need to read Carroll Quigley's Tragedy and Hope if you want to understand who is responsible for this economic mess.

Even classical-progressives knew these Bankers were some seriously dangerous individuals.
As Charles Lindbergh Senior once wrote in his book Banking, and Currency, and The Money Trust.

It's no wonder that these men in power laugh at the masses and view them as useless eaters.
We're living in a pseudo-socialist system that is destroying our country, and we have people begging for it to become more socialist.
It's like being slowly poisoned with arsenic in your food over a long period of time and then saying, "that's not good enough, give me the whole bottle."

[Bri]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

So what can we do to smarten them all up? Or are we simply doomed to a future of idiocracy?

I think it's the politicians rather than the voters that have dumbed down. The changes in the media landscape allowed a type of politician to evolve that looks good on TV, can produce catchy soundbites and is able to charm people at fundraisers. Personality and looks have replaced knowledge, skills and competencies.

Media darwinism, survival of the prettiest. Hmm, a bit like bad anime, cute characters over substance. Still, can you imagine Bush jr. and Obama as moe blobs?

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Bri

Still, can you imagine Bush jr. and Obama as moe blobs?

While not quite moeblobs, Comedy Central kind of already did that.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

That's the bulk of Americans who'd run away from it, and I don't blame them.
I absolutely hate socialism.
It's caused the deaths of approximately 200 million people in the 20th century.
Hell, Lenin's War Communism alone killed 7,000,000 people via starvation.
American's are correct in not wanting that.

Straw man. The social democracies of Europe have nothing to do with communism.

What level of control over their own lives do they have to give up for the "free" healthcare, housing, and food?

Please elaborate how European governments "control the lives" of those they provide free healthcare, housing and food for. I'd really be curious here. Uncover the nefarious plans of those who shelter, feed and cure the poor!!

(The truth is the exact opposite, of course. Since the citizens are _entitled_ to it, the government has no leverage over them by threatening to withhold it)

With the exception of a minority of citizens, Americans would rather have their freedom than government hand-outs, and I whole heartily agree.
Citizens of the US don't mind helping the poor out and trying to help them get a leg up, but we're not keen on creating a serf class here.

You already HAVE a serf class, and it's growing. And I'm not merely talking about all the unemployed or incarcerated, I'm talking about those who barely survive with 1-2 McJobs. I've seen how destitute life can get in the US with my own eyes.

Helping out the poor? A very good friend of mine (once a witness of jehova) was left penniless and powerless after leaving a violent husband. She was ostracized by her family, the state did NOTHING to help her, the welfare groups around here were "Christian" and essentially refused to help her without converting... (something that made me - a practicing German catholic - mad as hell). Yes, Americans can be a giving people, I wouldn't deny that. But overall, "the poor" are treated like dirt.

We want our people to succeed on their own and not have to be taken care of.
Europe is an entirely different matter for the most part.
As you yourself have just mentioned.
Therefore, you have to understand we're not "boorishly" ignorant.
We just don't like being serfs.

Non sequitur. It has nothing to do with serfdom to treat "the poor" kindly, it's called being civilized. By receiving this kind of aid you keep your dignity and are NOT forced into destitution and despair. And if you seriously think that all it takes is some willpower to be successful, you still have much to learn.

AGW is a fairytale, which is why the "scientists" who support it are either reversing themselves or being investigated by the US congress.

Let's just say that I disagree, I don't have time to delve into this. The vast majority of the scientific community disagrees with your sources, which tends to be corporation-paid quacks and shills if you dig a little.

You see in America, just because someone with a PHD says its so, doesn't make it so.
We're allergic to bullshit.

I wish you were. Trust me, I wish you were.

And there is NO intelligent design discussed in US public school classrooms (in fact there's not much intelligence there period ), so I don't know where you're getting your info from but it's not accurate.

Oh really? You might want to look into this, as a quick example.

Who knows, maybe Perry - who is very supportive of this effort - might end up being your next president.

Religious and Private schools have the right to teach it in America, and that's how it should be in a free society.

Sorry man, you're just wrong here ^_^;

Yes the corruption in the USA is a definite problem, but then again, Europe is suffering from it's own level of corrupt and decadent system.
Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy, France, and even Germany are in economic trouble due to their entitlement programs.
You know the old saying, take the log out of your eye before you bitch about the splinter in mine?

You seriously want to list RealClearMarkets as evidence for your position? That's like listing Joseph Goebbels as expert on why Jews are to be blamed for all evil in the world.

Peggy Noonan is a conservative retard. She is completely clueless about the situation over here, but knows exactly what her readership wants to read. As I said, boorish ignorance about the world.

How can you even make this list of countries, which are extremely diverse? Greece is totally unlike Spain unlike France unlike Germany. The situations these countries are in are completely different, their cultures are noticeably different, yet when it suits American conservatives, it's still "one size fits all". I bet you couldn't even distinguish between their various political systems without looking into wikipedia, am I right?

It's no wonder that these men in power laugh at the masses and view them as useless eaters. We're living in a pseudo-socialist system that is destroying our country, and we have people begging for it to become more socialist.

Wow. Explain to me how the US are socialist. This is getting better by the minute. You are a country of barely concealed social darwinism. That's not socialism though.

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Wow. Explain to me how the US are socialist. This is getting better by the minute. You are a country of barely concealed social darwinism. That's not socialism though.

Well, despite the fact that I disagree with just about every premise and "factual" assertion Gundam has, there are plenty of socialist programs in the US. The FDA, EPA, public education, maternity leave. And let's not forget medicare, medicaid, etc. You know, programs the teahatters love dearly despite their revulsion towards "socialism," and that even Gundam here will probably be using gladly in his(?) old age.

After all, all that socialism even is, is the government taking care of and protecting its people, whether their food, water, or environment. That's all it entails.

[MeoTwister5]

McCarthy sense tingling!

Seriously though, once you start delving into the current trends, failures and abuses of the mainstream "democracy" used in the US and other countries, you could already give the same amount of criticism used against socialism/communism/etc.

The problem with the "handout" system in American democracy, Philippine democracy and perhaps a lot more is that it's more of giving a man a fish than teaching him how to fish. Rather than creating a system that provides jobs in a stabilized economy and a balanced assistance/safety net, government welfare is more content to just hand them out a cash stipend every amount of time and just let them spend the money as they see fit. That's pretty much where people get the idea that the poor are getting a free pass so to speak. They come back begging for more fish every month because they don't have a way to catch it themselves.

Perhaps part of it is because many of the poor are conditioned put out their hands to the government waiting for alms for free, rather than be given a job contract and a paycheck. In any case I'd say it's because the government earns instantaneous pogi points from the lower class when they see a bag of money in their hands. It may as well be vote buying.

[Anh_Minh]

I think if a government could decree full-employment, it would. Sure, there'd be parasites who would be unhappy about losing their excuse to survive on charity, but they'd be overwhelmingly less numerous than the people happy to live decently.

But eh, it's an imperfect world. We've got to deal with that.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

Well, despite the fact that I disagree with just about every premise and "factual" assertion Gundam has, there are plenty of socialist programs in the US. The FDA, EPA, public education, maternity leave. And let's not forget medicare, medicaid, etc. You know, programs the teahatters love dearly despite their revulsion towards "socialism," and that even Gundam here will probably be using gladly in his(?) old age.

I'm trying to wrap my head about how the Food and Drug Agency or Environmental Protection Agency would be "socialist" (a term which most American conservatives are using completely wrong). These agencies are rendering a public service and try to control and uphold the various laws in their areas. With the same "logic" you could argue that the Police is socialist, too.

Public education, maternity leave... wow. Has nothing to do with "socialism" either, but I get the drift: They are civilizatory achievements which benefit the public, which some people are unwilling to pay for. That's socialism?

People should really read the definition of socialism first. Of course, possibly they would realize afterwards that no EU country is socialist. As I said: Boorish ignorance.

After all, all that socialism even is, is the government taking care of and protecting its people, whether their food, water, or environment. That's all it entails.

Except for that this is not socialism, it does kinda sound like a good idea to me. But then again, I'm probably not free enough to realize that it's not ^_^;

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Public education, maternity leave... wow. Has nothing to do with "socialism" either, but I get the drift: They are civilizatory achievements which benefit the public, which some people are unwilling to pay for. That's socialism?

I believe this would be of humorous note here. Regarding maternity leave, and how the super right wing go from hating to loving as soon as they need to use it.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

McCarthy sense tingling!

Seriously though, once you start delving into the current trends, failures and abuses of the mainstream "democracy" used in the US and other countries, you could already give the same amount of criticism used against socialism/communism/etc.

The problem with the "handout" system in American democracy, Philippine democracy and perhaps a lot more is that it's more of giving a man a fish than teaching him how to fish. Rather than creating a system that provides jobs in a stabilized economy and a balanced assistance/safety net, government welfare is more content to just hand them out a cash stipend every amount of time and just let them spend the money as they see fit. That's pretty much where people get the idea that the poor are getting a free pass so to speak. They come back begging for more fish every month because they don't have a way to catch it themselves.

Perhaps part of it is because many of the poor are conditioned put out their hands to the government waiting for alms for free, rather than be given a job contract and a paycheck. In any case I'd say it's because the government earns instantaneous pogi points from the lower class when they see a bag of money in their hands. It may as well be vote buying.

Agree, I wouldn't describe myself as a socialist (I'm more liberal), and I'd agree that the likes of Unemployment benefits don't nessecarily achieve much. But something like Universal healthcare is I think essential. It's a public service just like the Police, Fire department or Primary/Secondary Education. As a policy it benefits everyone. It benefits the poor as they can get healthcare, it benefits the middle classes a bit less, but they still no longer need to plan for healthcare costs too much, and if they get an illness beyond their means they can pay for it. And it benefits the super rich because a healthy workforce is a happy, productive work force. And it benefits the productivity of the medical sector as a whole because hospitals don't have to check every patient for payment details before treating them, and it eliminates much of the leeching of health insurance, and it allows people to negotiate with drug companies from a stronger collective position.

I don't view it as socialist to support universal healthcare, I just think it's supporting good public services. What makes healthcare any different from policing? You have no way of anticipating illness, just as you have no way of anticipating being mugged.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I think if a government could decree full-employment, it would. Sure, there'd be parasites who would be unhappy about losing their excuse to survive on charity, but they'd be overwhelmingly less numerous than the people happy to live decently.

But eh, it's an imperfect world. We've got to deal with that.

Something like this is enacted in Singapore IIRC...

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

The problem with the "handout" system in American democracy, Philippine democracy and perhaps a lot more is that it's more of giving a man a fish than teaching him how to fish.

Strange how some countries do just that. Like offering training to unemployed in order to transition into a job which is higher in demand, or to give the trainees extra qualifications which they'd need for employment.

Rather than creating a system that provides jobs in a stabilized economy and a balanced assistance/safety net, government welfare is more content to just hand them out a cash stipend every amount of time and just let them spend the money as they see fit. That's pretty much where people get the idea that the poor are getting a free pass so to speak. They come back begging for more fish every month because they don't have a way to catch it themselves.

I won't deny that there is a danger to create a complacent class of people who feel comfortable with the minimum support. This is definitely a problem in one direction, which tends to be addressed by reducing the support should someone repeatedly refuse to show up at a job which has been assigned to him. Still, it's my honest opinion that I'd rather see some people exploit welfare than people dying in the street due to a lack of healthcare.

So tell me, guys? Who's more free? The socialist French who goes home after 37 hours a week due to workplace protection, or the free American who shows up on the weekend since the boss demands it? The socialist German who returns to his welfare-paid apartment, or the free American returning to live in his Grandmothers' shed? The socialist Swede visiting his doctor for his diabetes treatment, or the free American who is limited to ER visits since he can't afford healthcare?

Serf class, my (censored). I know for a fact who is treated with more dignity here.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Agree, I wouldn't describe myself as a socialist (I'm more liberal), and I'd agree that the likes of Unemployment benefits don't nessecarily achieve much. But something like Universal healthcare is I think essential. It's a public service just like the Police, Fire department or Primary/Secondary Education. As a policy it benefits everyone. It benefits the poor as they can get healthcare, it benefits the middle classes a bit less, but they still no longer need to plan for healthcare costs too much, and if they get an illness beyond their means they can pay for it. And it benefits the super rich because a healthy workforce is a happy, productive work force. And it benefits the productivity of the medical sector as a whole because hospitals don't have to check every patient for payment details before treating them, and it eliminates much of the leeching of health insurance, and it allows people to negotiate with drug companies from a stronger collective position.

I don't view it as socialist to support universal health care, I just think it's supporting good public services. What makes health care any different from policing? You have no way of anticipating illness, just as you have no way of anticipating being mugged.

I've been working for just 6 months and I can tell you how heartbreaking it is to watch patients slowly waste away because of poverty and little to no programs available to help them get through even the simplest diseases. I once had to declare a patient's time of death, having died to a urinary tract infection that could have easily been fought off if he could afford antibiotics. I cried in the intern's break rook later that evening.

If socialism = proper and humane public services (which it isn't), then you can call a commie witch hunt on my head, and I will hold my head up high. I don't intend to withhold my capacity in medicine just because a patient doesn't have insurance.

Overall, I believe humanism above all isms.

I won't deny that there is a danger to create a complacent class of people who feel comfortable with the minimum support. This is definitely a problem in one direction, which tends to be addressed by reducing the support should someone repeatedly refuse to show up at a job which has been assigned to him. Still, it's my honest opinion that I'd rather see some people exploit welfare than people dying in the street due to a lack of healthcare.

So tell me, guys? Who's more free? The socialist French who goes home after 37 hours a week due to workplace protection, or the free American who shows up on the weekend since the boss demands it? The socialist German who returns to his welfare-paid apartment, or the free American returning to live in his Grandmothers' shed? The socialist Swede visiting his doctor for his diabetes treatment, or the free American who is limited to ER visits since he can't afford healthcare?

Serf class, my (censored). I know for a fact who is treated with more dignity here.

Well regardless of your capacity/intention to work, there should at least be a bare minimum for everyone to have regardless of the laziness of your ass. At the same time welfare should be able to discern those who leech the system and those who are trying their damn best to get out of poverty. The bare minimum should at least be based of humane ideas of treatment, at the same time not allowing leeches to continue their bloodsucking ways. In an ideal society anyway. I come from an upper-middle class upbringing and won't deny having a silver spoon in my mouth for a good deal of my life, but I prefer to believe that I'm different from the other haves who continue to lock themselves away in their gated compounds.

Getting everyone through life is a group effort. If there's anything my rich as heck grandfather (who lived through the second war and much of his early adult life barely making ends meet) taught me, it's that you should never forget the view from down below once your up above, and he continues his social work even though he's wheelchair bound now. I think that's a lesson the elites of many countries need to keep in mind.

[Ithekro]

I wonder how comfortable Hillary Clinton is in her current position verse the Oval Office she seem to desire.
(I don't want her as President. My father went to school with her and said she was a stuck up, self-important, bitch even at age 17)

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

I've been working for just 6 months and I can tell you how heartbreaking it is to watch patients slowly waste away because of poverty and little to no programs available to help them get through even the simplest diseases. I once had to declare a patient's time of death, having died to a urinary tract infection that could have easily been fought off if he could afford antibiotics. I cried in the intern's break rook later that evening.

If socialism = proper and humane public services (which it isn't), then you can call a commie witch hunt on my head, and I will hold my head up high. I don't intend to withhold my capacity in medicine just because a patient doesn't have insurance.

Overall, I believe humanism above all isms.

My opinion would be that univeral healthcare isn't socialism, it's common decency. In an Irish context I'm actually only marginally left of center. And I'm more left in a liberal sense then a socialist one. I think our society has enough safety nets and subsidised public services. I'd only argue that some may need to be run better.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Something like this is enacted in Singapore IIRC...

Full employment? Technically speaking, if you do the math, the number of foreigners on work permits constitute to the full employment. Our unemployment rate is at 2.1%, and that includes foreigners and PRs within the population, not just citizens. And they make up 36% of our population. And if you calculate the financially free foreigners-turned-citizens, combined with the local ones who are out of the labour force (self-employed, freelance, etc) I am sure the unemployment rate is much higher than it seems. I am willing to bet that there are more employed executives working for the monopolised "government mandated" (governmental interests my foot, they have totally no control over the monopoly) public transport corporation doing nothing compared to the "grunts" getting the hell of the rush hour every morning.

I don't mind working long shifts. And I don't mind having no minimum wage law to keep the country competitive. But the thing is that the government willingly let the corporations pay bare-minimum wages in the face of rising inflation - sooner or later I would have to blow my savings on my health because I don't even have time to EXERCISE (running to the bus station and shoving my way up the bus is not counted) and I am not even earning enough to save.

The same is pretty much happening in the US. Makes me think that the 21st century is truly a human revolution. *sarcastic*

P.S I am thinking of going back to becoming a freelancer. I just got into a verbal quarrel with a significantly older colleague demanding that I show him respect - almost told him to fuck off to the crematorium. The "iron rice bowl" just simply isn't worth it in a dead end job like this, it is a self-destructing cycle on my health and age if I stick to earning low wages for the sake of having a stable income.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Straw man. The social democracies of Europe have nothing to do with communism.

Neither did Lenin since communism was never achieved.
The USSR was a socialist country, as China is today.
Again, this requires you to see how they operated verses what they claimed.
Did the USSR use money, engage in trade, and have an economy?
Yes.
That's socialism, not communism.

Please elaborate how European governments "control the lives" of those they provide free healthcare, housing and food for. I'd really be curious here. Uncover the nefarious plans of those who shelter, feed and cure the poor!!

(The truth is the exact opposite, of course. Since the citizens are _entitled_ to it, the government has no leverage over them by threatening to withhold it)

Or really?
So if the government orders you to perform a specific action or else you forfeit those entitlements, what are you going to do about it?
I'll tell you...nothing.
You're going to knuckle under and obey.
That is called power.

You already HAVE a serf class, and it's growing. And I'm not merely talking about all the unemployed or incarcerated, I'm talking about those who barely survive with 1-2 McJobs. I've seen how destitute life can get in the US with my own eyes.

That's because we're a corporatist nation now.
We left behind our Capitalist roots in the 19th century.

Helping out the poor? A very good friend of mine (once a witness of jehova) was left penniless and powerless after leaving a violent husband. She was ostracized by her family, the state did NOTHING to help her, the welfare groups around here were "Christian" and essentially refused to help her without converting... (something that made me - a practicing German catholic - mad as hell). Yes, Americans can be a giving people, I wouldn't deny that. But overall, "the poor" are treated like dirt.

Yeah so, I was disowned at 18 and have had to make my way in the world with no help from anyone (haven't seen or spoken to my parents in 20 years).
I've done quite well considering, which is why I have no tolerance for the welfare state mentality.
Sometimes nothing can help a person, as in the case of your friend.
Life just hands us a bad deal, how we choose to tackle the problems will determine whether we survive it or not.
The power of the will can be very strong.

Non sequitur. It has nothing to do with serfdom to treat "the poor" kindly, it's called being civilized. By receiving this kind of aid you keep your dignity and are NOT forced into destitution and despair. And if you seriously think that all it takes is some willpower to be successful, you still have much to learn.

Hah! LOL.
You call my statement non sequitur, meaning that "what leads does not follow" but then go on to make that statement?
That's funny.

No, what it takes to be successfull is buying power in the form of money with actual value, and the ability to end corporate favoritism, corporate welfare, and loopholes in the tax system for corporations.

That's what is at the heart of this election in 2012.
We need a leader and a congress that will end the corruption and cronyism in Washington DC.
No amount of government run anything is going to help the poor if DC is bought and paid for by special interest groups.

Let's just say that I disagree, I don't have time to delve into this. The vast majority of the scientific community disagrees with your sources, which tends to be corporation-paid quacks and shills if you dig a little.

Of course you disagree, you believe a lie, P.T. Barnum put it best: "there's a sucker born every minute."
Big Oil controls both sides of the "Climate Change" debate and they aim to profit from it.

I wish you were. Trust me, I wish you were.

Why? You like your Health Care System that much?

Oh really? You might want to look into this, as a quick example.

Now that is pathetic.
I don't support pushing any religion in public schools, and to see Texas trying to do this AGAIN, really irks me.

Who knows, maybe Perry - who is very supportive of this effort - might end up being your next president.

Oh GOD no!
Perry is the last asshole we need in the White House.
Give me David Kucinich or Ron Paul over him any day.

Sorry man, you're just wrong here ^_^;

No, I'm correct.
In the US, Religious and Private schools have the right to teach ID if they so choose.

You seriously want to list RealClearMarkets as evidence for your position? That's like listing Joseph Goebbels as expert on why Jews are to be blamed for all evil in the world.

You mean the article of how 111 billion US dollars went to European banks to bail their sorry butts out?

I already know you won't accept anything that challenges your world view.
But here's another article.
This time from FAR right-wing Huffington Post!
Italy's Largest Union Threatens To Strike Over New Austerity Package

Spanish Towns Face Funding Crisis, Rack Up Debts

The next president of the United States is going to have to deal with the possiblity that Europe will be broke due to its entitlement society, and thus in a bad position both financially and militarily.

Peggy Noonan is a conservative retard. She is completely clueless about the situation over here, but knows exactly what her readership wants to read. As I said, boorish ignorance about the world.

Ah yes, can't attack the message so attack the messenger.
That's the last bastion of a failed argument.

How can you even make this list of countries, which are extremely diverse? Greece is totally unlike Spain unlike France unlike Germany. The situations these countries are in are completely different, their cultures are noticeably different, yet when it suits American conservatives, it's still "one size fits all". I bet you couldn't even distinguish between their various political systems without looking into wikipedia, am I right?

Have you ever heard of a union of European countries called the Eurozone?
That makes you all one economically, so the entitlement programs that bankrupts one of your countries effects the rest.
That is why you get the "one size fits all" treatment, just like we here in the USA get the "one size fits all" from the rest of the world even though we are 50 individual sovereign states, each with their own laws and cultures.

Wow. Explain to me how the US are socialist. This is getting better by the minute. You are a country of barely concealed social darwinism. That's not socialism though.

Gee, I don't know maybe because we have the following:

1)We have imminent domain which is essentially the
abolistion of property in land and application of all land to public purposes.

2) A heavy progressive or graduated income tax, affectionally known as Title 26 of the USC and run by the IRS, an agency most Americans fear.

3) Abolition of all right of inheritance via taxes. Death tax, inheritance tax, etc., effectively end the right to the inheritance without government taking a cut.


4) Confiscation of the property of emigrants and rebels. Basically the RICO statues which allow government agencies to confiscate property without compensation for a variety of reasons. The RICO statues are abused by the US government routinely.

5) Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. We call that the Federal Reserve banking system which has total control of our money.

6) Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. The agencies that control those are called the FCC, FAA, TSA, and DHS.

7) Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; cultivation of wast-lands; and improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. The BLM, FDA, USDA, and now SB510 have given the US government near total control of farmlands, and all manufacturing.

8 ) Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. Unionization of public employees and creation of so called "union laws" were orignally to equalize liability of labor.

9) Combination of argriculture with manufacturing industries; and gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the population over the country. We call it the Planning Reorganization Act of 1949 , zoning (Title 17 1910-1990) and Super Corporate Farms, as well as Executive orders 11647, 11731 (ten regions) and Public "law" 89-136.

10) Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.
The Public school system is a prime example here.

Nope, can't see why I'd consider the USA Socialist...must have something to do with Karl's manifesto?

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Except for that this is not socialism, it does kinda sound like a good idea to me. But then again, I'm probably not free enough to realize that it's not ^_^;

Hm, guess I have some terminology to reread up on.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

10) Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.
The Public school system is a prime example here.

Oh no. Abolition of child labor and free education. How horrible.

And I counter your links on climate change with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scienti..._organizations

Note how many organizations concur in the positive, and then take a look at the very end, those two to four lines about dissenting opinions. I'll trust all those scientific organizations over the individual dissenters.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Or really?
So if the government orders you to perform a specific action or else you forfeit those entitlements, what are you going to do about it?
I'll tell you...nothing.
You're going to knuckle under and obey.
That is called power.

I'd go to the newspapers, and that government would be voted out lickity split. Also, who ever tried to do that would probably get put on trial. There isn't any way for the government to withhold entitlements from a person. Even a criminal offense isn't really grounds.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

Oh no. Abolition of child labor and free education. How horrible.

Abolishing free education is not a good idea, but it is good to keep it in check with more efficient learning systems in private education.

At least it takes the en-masse brainwashing card out of the government hands - private education acts a calling card for lopsided bullshit government syllabuses teach.