Kuroko no Basuke [Manga]

[Log]

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

If you were to look at the States' 2012 Dream Team, are players like D-Wade, Chauncey Billups, or Derrick Rose, who were initially part of the roster and played some matches pre-Olympics, yet were ultimately cut, part of team or not? I say nay, some may disagree.

D Rose and Wade was cut because of serious injuries otherwise Wade would've replaced Harden for the SG position and Rose would've probably replaced Deron.

Most people don't consider Billups the top 5 PGs in the league and putting him ahead of well known people like westbrook and and paul won't garner good reactions so he was the obvious cut. That and he also had a injury ridden season beforehand iirc.

Originally Posted by iamadooddood

Oh yes it does. Page 40+ of the first chapter. And later his own Teiko coach excludes him from the 5. Manga has people actually calling him one of them, then later excluding him when they're mentioned. Wouldn't that count as retconning?

I mostly take it as a matter of interpretation. Some characters feel he qualifies and some don't.

You mean the Redeem Team, right? Well, in a team of so many strong players, someone has got to go... no matter who's out, there'll be those who'll disagree. Maybe they drew lots or something. Who knows. Same for 1992's Dream Team as well.

The cut's is mostly based on qualification as well as popularity. Well known players such as Kobe and Lebron are obvious choices for increase in sells.

1992 dream team is actually sorta rigged. NBA wanted to garner as much attraction as possible so they choose the most famous players, Larry Bird, Magic, and MJ. Out of the 3 only MJ really qualifies for being selected first. Bird had a bad back and couldn't play most of the time so he's just there for publicity. Magic retired for a while so while he still had skills he wasn't what I would consider the first pick if it's just based off skills.

Yeah, the Internet's also filled with info from the -replace- novels which clash with the manga info and thus is what I believe to be non-canon. Unfortunately, I forgot which info's from the manga and which info's from the novels. Zzz.

I don't recall anything that clash with the manga.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

The Redeem Team was in 2008. Some people were calling last year's team the second Dream Team for some reason (those players were/are pretty legit though).

Most of the parallels between the two come from the fact that Kobe said that 2012 team can beat the dream team so comparison's between the two became common.

Originally Posted by iamadooddood

Speaking of which, Haizaki being called a member of the Generation of Miracles. He was not called as such in his introductory appearance (just a former regular), yet he was addressed as such once in Kuroko's flashback. Another retcon?

Where? Don't recall that.

As far as everyone in KnB is concerned he's someone that could've been known a GoM if Kise haven't showed up.

Basically like Tatsuya, a genius that didn't quite make it to GoM level but is strong enough to fool most people at first glance.

........I just realized how ironic it is that he mocked Tatsuya and called him a weakling when he's in the same situation himself.

Oh right. Their bronze was in 2004 not 2008. @_@

True I guess. Was the Dream Team rotated or was it the same starting five all the time?

It rotated. Mostly to rest players.

[iamadooddood]

Originally Posted by Log

I don't recall anything that clash with the manga.

IIRC one of them was about how Momoi fell in love with Kuroko. The events leading up to the ice cream part.

Originally Posted by Log

Where? Don't recall that.

Chapter 210, where Aomine got past Nijimura during practice, the page after had one of the other guys in the first string call the main players the Generation of Miracles. That same page addressed Kuroko separately so there's another example of Kuroko not being considered one of them at the time. (Then again, Kise wasn't even in the first string at the time...)

Originally Posted by Log

It rotated. Mostly to rest players.

I see. Did the team have an ace?

[Log]

Originally Posted by iamadooddood

IIRC one of them was about how Momoi fell in love with Kuroko. The events leading up to the ice cream part.

I see.

That's a pretty minor detail. Very observant of you to notice that.

Chapter 210, where Aomine got past Nijimura during practice, the page after had one of the other guys in the first string call the main players the Generation of Miracles. That same page addressed Kuroko separately so there's another example of Kuroko not being considered one of them at the time. (Then again, Kise wasn't even in the first string at the time...)

That isn't really what I would consider a retcon. It happened in the past before the whole concept of the 5 considered GoM was established.

The people in Teiko already realized the genius of their starters and that includes Haizaki hence they referred to them as GoM as a way to acknowledge that genius. They weren't known as the GoM by most of the public though. Just very good players.

However Haizaki wasn't named GoM because he had already quit by the time the whole GoM title was really established.

If he was called GoM now that would be a retcon.

I see. Did the team have an ace?

With the exception of the college kid (Laettner) it was a team filled with aces that were at the pinnacle of their respective positions although MJ is acknowledged to be the best among them (Barkley had a better performance in the Olympic though).

[iamadooddood]

Originally Posted by Log

That isn't really what I would consider a retcon. It happened in the past before the whole concept of the 5 considered GoM was established.

The people in Teiko already realized the genius of their starters and that includes Haizaki hence they referred to them as GoM as a way to acknowledge that genius. They weren't known as the GoM by most of the public though. Just very good players.

However Haizaki wasn't named GoM because he had already quit by the time the whole GoM title was really established.

If he was called GoM now that would be a retcon.

It was a sports magazine that first gave them the title GoM, not anyone in Teiko.

If Haizaki called himself ex-GoM that wouldn't be a retcon.

Originally Posted by Log

With the exception of the college kid (Laettner) it was a team filled with aces that were at the pinnacle of their respective positions although MJ is acknowledged to be the best among them (Barkley had a better performance in the Olympic though).

I see, so no obvious aces. Was that college kid recognised as a good enough player to count among the Dream Team?

[BPD Renegade]

Whoa, Log. Thanks for all the info! I don't follow what happens outside the court very closely, so it's good to have someone in the know. Do you have any ideas on how to beat an ankle break dribble?

Originally Posted by iamadooddood

Oops, my bad, it's the chairman. Also, if he didn't pay much attention and Kuroko was considered a member of the GoM he'd have said 6 not 5.

No, he wouldn't, because Kuroko is not noticeable on and off the court. After the GoM bloomed, Kuroko became completely outshone by them. Whereas before, teams noticed his passes during tight games, now his presence became unnecessary, and thus easily overlooked. A guy like the chairman, who's more concerned about prestige than his players, would never notice him, unless he stood out, which again, he doesn't.

Best tennis player doesn't always refer to skills, it's also physical/mental strength and other factors too.

Mentally, Federer seldom acts perturbed. Imo, mentally he's one of the strongest in our era. Physically, he may not have as much power as other players, but this year's probably the first year he's had an injury, unlike others who are rife with them. I think this is getting a little off topic though. My bad.

Point taken. But I always read the Chinese translations before the English ones, and the Chinese ones fudge up less often.

Okay, you've got a better grasp at the translations than I do then. I was worried you might have been lingering around inns with hat-wearing pandas...

Actually, flashbacks imply that it wasn't because they stopped passing to him, it's more of because they were treating the whole thing as a game (who scores more points, the 111-11 thing, etc), and this was the real reason why the situation got worse for him.

Yeah, the flashbacks give us the full story. But earlier, when Kagami asked Kuroko about his relationship with Aomine, Kuroko talked about the passes and lack of trust. How I see it, Kuroko began to feel alienated when the passes stopped coming. This feeling grew as the "games" started, and reached its culmination with Ogiwara.

I don't consider this a retcon. It's human nature not to tell your life story to someone you've only known for a while, and the flashback was about the entire GoM, whereas Kagami was just asking about Aomine.

Originally Posted by Log

I mostly take it as a matter of interpretation. Some characters feel he qualifies and some don't.

Exactly. Thus far, whether or not Kuroko is a part of the GoM is not a retcon. Can we at least agree on that iamadooddood?

........I just realized how ironic it is that he mocked Tatsuya and called him a weakling when he's in the same situation himself.

That's one of the things I like about this manga. The basketball may not be very realistic, but the characterization is very well done, especially in regards to everyone's faults.

Originally Posted by iamadooddood

IIRC one of them was about how Momoi fell in love with Kuroko. The events leading up to the ice cream part.

Oh yeah, I remember that part now too. In the manga/anime, initially, it was Momoi feeling left out and Kuroko showing up out of nowhere, and later, we see that it's a celebration for Kise making it to regulars or something. Nice, you found a retcon. But still, something like this isn't enough to say the story's not cohesive.

Originally Posted by iamadooddood

It was a sports magazine that first gave them the title GoM, not anyone in Teiko.

If Haizaki called himself ex-GoM that wouldn't be a retcon.

Was it? I imagine that it would be something just talked about until it's picked up by the media. The magazine may have formalized the title, but I don't think they were the first ones to use it.
I.e., "a generation of miracles" --> "the Generation of Miracles"

I see, so no obvious aces. Was that college kid recognised as a good enough player to count among the Dream Team?

Correct me if I'm wrong, Log, but in teams like these and in the All-Star games, it's usually the case where there aren't obvious aces, because they literally take all the aces/popular players and throw them together. Although by the end of the game, one or two guys will end up scoring way more points than everyone else.

[Log]

Originally Posted by iamadooddood

I see, so no obvious aces. Was that college kid recognised as a good enough player to count among the Dream Team?

No. It says a lot when Bird with a bad back who laid around in pain for half the Olympics scored more points on average then Laettner (Laettner scored 4.8 iirc). Only Stockton did worse and he was more into giving assists then scoring points given he's a pure PG. Stockton's lifetime point per game average is 19 something in the NBA and his field goal percentage is also one of the best in the NBA so he definitely could've scored more if he wanted to.

The only reason Laettner was put on the team was because 1992 was the first time pros appeared in the Olympics for basketball so before there were only college kids that played. Since they broke a long sanctioned tradition people wanted to a least honor that tradition by bringing one college kid in which happened to be Laettner.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

Whoa, Log. Thanks for all the info! I don't follow what happens outside the court very closely, so it's good to have someone in the know. Do you have any ideas on how to beat an ankle break dribble?

Akashi's version or IRL?

IRL, don't fall for the fake move. Most ankle breakers are caused by the offense fake rushing in then suddenly doing a crossover and going another way. The defender would back away to defend against the rush in but the sudden change in movement by the offense forces them to change their own motion. If the defender lacks balance then he falls down due to trying to change his motion to fast.

Akashi's version, no idea. It shouldn't be possible for him to ankle break by just dribbling....... his ability is IMO the most unrealistic ability in Kuroko (second would be Haizaki's).

Correct me if I'm wrong, Log, but in teams like these and in the All-Star games, it's usually the case where there aren't obvious aces, because they literally take all the aces/popular players and throw them together. Although by the end of the game, one or two guys will end up scoring way more points than everyone else.

Sorta.

Aces can refuse to participate in Olympics and All Stars (not absolutely sure on All Stars but they can definitely refuse to participate in Olympics) due to injuries or they just don't want to (the Olympics basically takes away summer vacation time). In that case the NBA top brass just goes down a list until they hit jackpot.

Sometimes that can mean that great but not "star" level players will play in these games. A example of that would be Anthony Davis replacing Howard in 2012.

[iamadooddood]

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

No, he wouldn't, because Kuroko is not noticeable on and off the court. After the GoM bloomed, Kuroko became completely outshone by them. Whereas before, teams noticed his passes during tight games, now his presence became unnecessary, and thus easily overlooked. A guy like the chairman, who's more concerned about prestige than his players, would never notice him, unless he stood out, which again, he doesn't.

But for the chairman to overlook the guy that practically saved the team in the final in their second year? Teiko would have lost that final if not for Kuroko.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

Okay, you've got a better grasp at the translations than I do then. I was worried you might have been lingering around inns with hat-wearing pandas...

What.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

Yeah, the flashbacks give us the full story. But earlier, when Kagami asked Kuroko about his relationship with Aomine, Kuroko talked about the passes and lack of trust. How I see it, Kuroko began to feel alienated when the passes stopped coming. This feeling grew as the "games" started, and reached its culmination with Ogiwara.

I don't consider this a retcon. It's human nature not to tell your life story to someone you've only known for a while, and the flashback was about the entire GoM, whereas Kagami was just asking about Aomine.

I may or may not have remembered anything wrongly. I'll need to check where the flashbacks talk about him not receiving crucial passes, before I can properly reply to this. Just that I don't know where they are. @_@

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

Exactly. Thus far, whether or not Kuroko is a part of the GoM is not a retcon. Can we at least agree on that iamadooddood?

Actually, still no, because the Characters Bible apparently didn't say anything about Kuroko being a member of the Generation of Miracles, but did for the main 5. Having characters in the manga stating that he is, would be a retcon on either side's part.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

That's one of the things I like about this manga. The basketball may not be very realistic, but the characterization is very well done, especially in regards to everyone's faults.

I still say the basketball is realistic lol. Borderline case, since the Generation of Miracles apparently has talent which is on par with that of NBA players. And plays like this are possible going by the laws of physics. Not like the plays in the Prince of Tennis...

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

Oh yeah, I remember that part now too. In the manga/anime, initially, it was Momoi feeling left out and Kuroko showing up out of nowhere, and later, we see that it's a celebration for Kise making it to regulars or something. Nice, you found a retcon. But still, something like this isn't enough to say the story's not cohesive.

I also said that there were other examples. It's just that this is the only one I could recall offhand.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

Was it? I imagine that it would be something just talked about until it's picked up by the media. The magazine may have formalized the title, but I don't think they were the first ones to use it.
I.e., "a generation of miracles" --> "the Generation of Miracles"

That magazine called them "the Generation of Miracles", actually.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

Correct me if I'm wrong, Log, but in teams like these and in the All-Star games, it's usually the case where there aren't obvious aces, because they literally take all the aces/popular players and throw them together. Although by the end of the game, one or two guys will end up scoring way more points than everyone else.

The GoM still had Aomine for an ace lol.

Originally Posted by Log

No. It says a lot when Bird with a bad back who laid around in pain for half the Olympics scored more points on average then Laettner (Laettner scored 4.8 iirc). Only Stockton did worse and he was more into giving assists then scoring points given he's a pure PG. Stockton's lifetime point per game average is 19 something in the NBA and his field goal percentage is also one of the best in the NBA so he definitely could've scored more if he wanted to.

The only reason Laettner was put on the team was because 1992 was the first time pros appeared in the Olympics for basketball so before there were only college kids that played. Since they broke a long sanctioned tradition people wanted to a least honor that tradition by bringing one college kid in which happened to be Laettner.

I see.

In that case I won't put him as Kuroko's equivalent then.

Originally Posted by Log

Akashi's version or IRL?

IRL, don't fall for the fake move. Most ankle breakers are caused by the offense fake rushing in then suddenly doing a crossover and going another way. The defender would back away to defend against the rush in but the sudden change in movement by the offense forces them to change their own motion. If the defender lacks balance then he falls down due to trying to change his motion to fast.

Akashi's version, no idea. It shouldn't be possible for him to ankle break by just dribbling....... his ability is IMO the most unrealistic ability in Kuroko (second would be Haizaki's).

IRL? You can refer to Aomine's ankle break for that.

Akashi's version of ankle break is simply to do a fake first (like a normal ankle break), see the one moment where the defender lacks balance, and then do the crossover and go the other way, right during that one moment. That way, even if the defender can see through the fake move, he can't do anything to stop him. In other words, Akashi is going through the motion of ankle breaking not through instinct (like a normal ankle break), but through timing.

To stop Akashi's ankle break, you have to simultaneously not fall for the fake move, and keep your balance throughout that 1-on-1 encounter with him. Which is much harder than it sounds, I believe?

[BPD Renegade]

Originally Posted by iamadooddood

But for the chairman to overlook the guy that practically saved the team in the final in their second year? Teiko would have lost that final if not for Kuroko.

But Kuroko doesn't score. Unless the chairman was at the game, he probably wouldn't notice. If you're just looking at the score sheet, then all you see is a player with a ton of minutes and zero points. He'd have a high assist count, but that wouldn't really matter much to someone like the chairman who is only focused on players who generate publicity -- i.e., the ones who are directly making the baskets.

What.

Read between the lines. It'll become fairly obvious once you get it.

I may or may not have remembered anything wrongly. I'll need to check where the flashbacks talk about him not receiving crucial passes, before I can properly reply to this. Just that I don't know where they are. @_@

I think it was right before the first Touou match.

Actually, still no, because the Characters Bible apparently didn't say anything about Kuroko being a member of the Generation of Miracles, but did for the main 5. Having characters in the manga stating that he is, would be a retcon on either side's part.

The Characters Bible was written by Fujimaki, right? If so, I've got nothing. -_- Although, I still maintain that Fujimaki is being purposefully ambiguous and creating a Seirin vs. GoM divide.

I still say the basketball is realistic lol. Borderline case, since the Generation of Miracles apparently has talent which is on par with that of NBA players. And plays like this are possible going by the laws of physics. Not like the plays in the Prince of Tennis...

Yes, the basketball is infinitely more realistic than the $h*t that happened in PoT (excuse my language, but I'm a bit disgusted with that manga). By unrealistic, I meant that it's highly unlikely for someone to have a near 100% field goal percentage, be able to ankle break every time, or steal a move. My head canon is that they're only able to pull off these moves because they're playing against high school defenders, and if you stuck a college or NBA-level defender on these kids, nine times out of ten they would fail.

That magazine called them "the Generation of Miracles", actually.

By that I meant that they were mentioned as a generation of miracles, in a general sense, by players, coaches, etc., and then once this began circulation, the media picked it up, and BAM. We have a headline, "The Generation of Miracles," which becomes their title.

The GoM still had Aomine for an ace lol.

That was then, when they were all on one team. But if you take each of the GoM + Kagami and put them on one team as they are now, would there be an obvious ace?

Originally Posted by Log

Akashi's version or IRL?

IRL, don't fall for the fake move. Most ankle breakers are caused by the offense fake rushing in then suddenly doing a crossover and going another way. The defender would back away to defend against the rush in but the sudden change in movement by the offense forces them to change their own motion. If the defender lacks balance then he falls down due to trying to change his motion to fast.

Akashi's version, no idea. It shouldn't be possible for him to ankle break by just dribbling....... his ability is IMO the most unrealistic ability in Kuroko (second would be Haizaki's).

Both I guess. Feel free not to answer this question, but were you on a basketball team? Just for curiosity's sake, since you know a ton.

From an amateur's standpoint, I think Haizaki's ability is the most unrealistic, followed by Himuro's Mirage Shot, and Midorima's 100% accurate full-court shot. Maybe we will see the crossover when Akashi gets animated? That panel where he made a guy fall just by walking was pure BS though.

Sorta.

Aces can refuse to participate in Olympics and All Stars (not absolutely sure on All Stars but they can definitely refuse to participate in Olympics) due to injuries or they just don't want to (the Olympics basically takes away summer vacation time). In that case the NBA top brass just goes down a list until they hit jackpot.

Sometimes that can mean that great but not "star" level players will play in these games. A example of that would be Anthony Davis replacing Howard in 2012.

I haven't followed the All-Star games for a few years, but iirc, don't injured players still show up on the team even though they're replaced? It would be kind of like flipping off their fans if they could refuse to participate.

[Log]

Originally Posted by iamadooddood

I still say the basketball is realistic lol. Borderline case, since the Generation of Miracles apparently has talent which is on par with that of NBA players. And plays like this are possible going by the laws of physics. Not like the plays in the Prince of Tennis...

Eh, off the top of my head the most physically impossible is:

You can't do stuff like Aomine without pulling a muscle or two.

Even MJ or Kobe with bodies practically crafted by extremely educated trainers and their own grueling work (Kobe worked 9 hours a day during summer) can't avoid injuries when making risky layups like the one's Aomine does all the time.

Midorima's full court shot should not be possible with human eye coordination.

Emperor Eye is of course another example.

The GoM still had Aomine for an ace lol.

Calling Aomine GoM "ace" was exaggeration caused by the him awakening first imo. By the third year every GoM was on the same playing field (with the exception of Kise and if you don't factor in "zone"). If anything Akashi's emperor eye is more deadly then Aomine's playing style, Murasakibara's big body was more physically daunting, and Midorima is a stronger scorer (3 points>2 points).

I see.

In that case I won't put him as Kuroko's equivalent then.

If we're talking about a Kuroko equivalent then Stockton fits the bill. Compared to the rest of the team he isn't as athletic and also isn't that strong of a scorer. But he has good basketball IQ, good field vision, good passing abilities and as the generic short white guy in a team filled with tall black guys he easily passes under the radar (During the Olympics Stockton asked a mother and her son if he saw any Dream team members recently, her response? "I just saw Charles Barkley!" He asked, "anyone else?" She ponders that question for a while before her 4 year old son points Stockton being in front of her out for her).

Hell Stockton even has a good relationship and complements power forward Karl Malone similar to Kagami and Kuroko.

IRL? You can refer to Aomine's ankle break for that.

Yeah the way Aomine does it is similar to real life.

Akashi's version of ankle break is simply to do a fake first (like a normal ankle break), see the one moment where the defender lacks balance, and then do the crossover and go the other way, right during that one moment. That way, even if the defender can see through the fake move, he can't do anything to stop him. In other words, Akashi is going through the motion of ankle breaking not through instinct (like a normal ankle break), but through timing.

To stop Akashi's ankle break, you have to simultaneously not fall for the fake move, and keep your balance throughout that 1-on-1 encounter with him. Which is much harder than it sounds, I believe?

Akashi somehow ankle breaks two people and causes Kagami to fall by putting his hand on Kagami's shoulder. Shouldn't be possible.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

Yes, the basketball is infinitely more realistic than the $h*t that happened in PoT (excuse my language, but I'm a bit disgusted with that manga). By unrealistic, I meant that it's highly unlikely for someone to have a near 100% field goal percentage, be able to ankle break every time, or steal a move. My head canon is that they're only able to pull off these moves because they're playing against high school defenders, and if you stuck a college or NBA-level defender on these kids, nine times out of ten they would fail.

Eh, GoM can still succeed even in the NBA (probably much more then just succeed given that they're still growing). Especially Midorima's full court shot. That shit's unstoppable provided you give Midorima the right screens.

That was then, when they were all on one team. But if you take each of the GoM + Kagami and put them on one team as they are now, would there be an obvious ace?

Aomine might still be ace actually because he can reliably activate zone.

Kise's another potential ace provided Akashi doesn't reveal some oh my god overpower ability.

His perfect copy is overpowered as fuck and he's the only player so far that Kagami isn't able to outplay at the end (yes I know that Kagami doesn't have Zone but Kise also didn't have Zone and he was stomping Kagami like how Zone Aomine was stomping Kagami without the zone).

Also there's some irony in the weakest of the GoM evolving into the strongest.

But this might all be my inner Kise fanboy talking.

Another thing to note is that Kagami seems like a inconsistent performer. Sure he's able to match Aomine and Murasakibara in deciding moments but regularly he doesn't perform as consistently as GoM. Aomine beat him when they went one on one easily and both Murasakibara and Tatsuya was kicking his ass at the start. Zone saved him in the end but he still can't activate it reliably. If such a team was created I imagine he would be benchwarmer for Aomine due to this.

Both I guess. Feel free not to answer this question, but were you on a basketball team? Just for curiosity's sake, since you know a ton.

I play but I'm not good enough to make a team.

I know a lot from reading bibliography on basketball players, and also watching espn.

From an amateur's standpoint, I think Haizaki's ability is the most unrealistic, followed by Himuro's Mirage Shot, and Midorima's 100% accurate full-court shot. Maybe we will see the crossover when Akashi gets animated? That panel where he made a guy fall just by walking was pure BS though.

That's a pretty accurate list. Add in Kise's ability in there to. And Aomine's ability to adjust his body without getting a severe injury.

And yeah by Akashi's ankle break being unrealistic I mean how he makes people fall by walking by without doing a fast drive fake or anything like that.

I haven't followed the All-Star games for a few years, but iirc, don't injured players still show up on the team even though they're replaced? It would be kind of like flipping off their fans if they could refuse to participate.

Yeah and that's why a lot of players sacrifice their own personal time to participate in games.

Still a lot of players (especially superstars) have the does not give a shit about fan opinion syndrome.

[iamadooddood]

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

But Kuroko doesn't score. Unless the chairman was at the game, he probably wouldn't notice. If you're just looking at the score sheet, then all you see is a player with a ton of minutes and zero points. He'd have a high assist count, but that wouldn't really matter much to someone like the chairman who is only focused on players who generate publicity -- i.e., the ones who are directly making the baskets.

Fair enough.

Then remember the page with that magazine? How about the fact that their seniors separated Kuroko from the main 5.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

Read between the lines. It'll become fairly obvious once you get it.

I really don't get the hat-wearing pandas part. DotA reference?

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

I think it was right before the first Touou match.

He said "something happened", but didn't elaborate.

Can't find that reference anymore...

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

The Characters Bible was written by Fujimaki, right? If so, I've got nothing. -_- Although, I still maintain that Fujimaki is being purposefully ambiguous and creating a Seirin vs. GoM divide.

Same here. And I say he's doing it by retconning.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

Yes, the basketball is infinitely more realistic than the $h*t that happened in PoT (excuse my language, but I'm a bit disgusted with that manga). By unrealistic, I meant that it's highly unlikely for someone to have a near 100% field goal percentage, be able to ankle break every time, or steal a move. My head canon is that they're only able to pull off these moves because they're playing against high school defenders, and if you stuck a college or NBA-level defender on these kids, nine times out of ten they would fail.

Well, it's just high school level basketball, and they're prodigies, which of course means that everyone else looks ridiculously weak in comparison, so it's not that unrealistic.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

By that I meant that they were mentioned as a generation of miracles, in a general sense, by players, coaches, etc., and then once this began circulation, the media picked it up, and BAM. We have a headline, "The Generation of Miracles," which becomes their title.

I see what you meant. Well, that's a possibility...

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

That was then, when they were all on one team. But if you take each of the GoM + Kagami and put them on one team as they are now, would there be an obvious ace?

Still Aomine. Kagami would be relegated to bench substitute.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

From an amateur's standpoint, I think Haizaki's ability is the most unrealistic, followed by Himuro's Mirage Shot, and Midorima's 100% accurate full-court shot. Maybe we will see the crossover when Akashi gets animated? That panel where he made a guy fall just by walking was pure BS though.

Haizaki and Himuro's skills look like borderline cases to me lol.

As for that Akashi panel it's more of Fujimaki didn't bother to show the whole process since it'd get really repetitive.

Originally Posted by Log

Eh, off the top of my head the most physically impossible is:

You can't do stuff like Aomine without pulling a muscle or two.

Even MJ or Kobe with bodies practically crafted by extremely educated trainers and their own grueling work (Kobe worked 9 hours a day during summer) can't avoid injuries when making risky layups like the one's Aomine does all the time.

Midorima's full court shot should not be possible with human eye coordination.

Emperor Eye is of course another example.

I wonder if MJ or Kobe did that kind of street basketball from young. Because it seems like Aomine's body may just be much more naturally flexible than theirs so he can pull off all those stunts with a lower chance of injury than them.

To me Midorima's shots might just be possible given his dedication to such coordination.

For EE... don't some people IRL have ridiculous visual acuity?

Originally Posted by Log

Calling Aomine GoM "ace" was exaggeration caused by the him awakening first imo. By the third year every GoM was on the same playing field (with the exception of Kise and if you don't factor in "zone"). If anything Akashi's emperor eye is more deadly then Aomine's playing style, Murasakibara's big body was more physically daunting, and Midorima is a stronger scorer (3 points>2 points).

But it's true that Aomine was among the top scorers when there were point wars (only Akashi could score as much, and Akashi would usually prefer to score the minimum number of points anyway).

Originally Posted by Log

If we're talking about a Kuroko equivalent then Stockton fits the bill. Compared to the rest of the team he isn't as athletic and also isn't that strong of a scorer. But he has good basketball IQ, good field vision, good passing abilities and as the generic short white guy in a team filled with tall black guys he easily passes under the radar (During the Olympics Stockton asked a mother and her son if he saw any Dream team members recently, her response? "I just saw Charles Barkley!" He asked, "anyone else?" She ponders that question for a while before her 4 year old son points Stockton being in front of her out for her).

Hell Stockton even has a good relationship and complements power forward Karl Malone similar to Kagami and Kuroko.

Lol... point taken.

Originally Posted by Log

Akashi somehow ankle breaks two people and causes Kagami to fall by putting his hand on Kagami's shoulder. Shouldn't be possible.

Just so happened that those two guys were off-balance at the same time, I guess? Which is possible if they're guarding the same guy and making the same movements. Then he does a crossover and...

As for Kagami, I think it was more of pressing on some pressure point on Kagami's shoulder. Doing that to certain pressure points on one's body can render that person immobile for a while.

Originally Posted by Log

Also there's some irony in the weakest of the GoM evolving into the strongest.

But this might all be my inner Kise fanboy talking.

Another thing to note is that Kagami seems like a inconsistent performer. Sure he's able to match Aomine and Murasakibara in deciding moments but regularly he doesn't perform as consistently as GoM. Aomine beat him when they went one on one easily and both Murasakibara and Tatsuya was kicking his ass at the start. Zone saved him in the end but he still can't activate it reliably. If such a team was created I imagine he would be benchwarmer for Aomine due to this.

Note that Kise can only be this OP for a few minutes. The rest of the time he's the weakest of the 5.

Maybe the difference between base Kagami and zone Kagami is larger than that of base Aomine and zone Aomine? Or did Aomine's training pay off?

Originally Posted by Log

That's a pretty accurate list. Add in Kise's ability in there to. And Aomine's ability to adjust his body without getting a severe injury.

And yeah by Akashi's ankle break being unrealistic I mean how he makes people fall by walking by without doing a fast drive fake or anything like that.

Kise's learning rate is very fast. Babies and monkeys can easily copy what they see others do (and babies in particular learn very fast). Kise is just like that.

As said above, Fujimaki probably just didn't show the panel where Akashi did that fast ankle break.

[BPD Renegade]

Originally Posted by Log

If we're talking about a Kuroko equivalent then Stockton fits the bill. Compared to the rest of the team he isn't as athletic and also isn't that strong of a scorer. But he has good basketball IQ, good field vision, good passing abilities and as the generic short white guy in a team filled with tall black guys he easily passes under the radar (During the Olympics Stockton asked a mother and her son if he saw any Dream team members recently, her response? "I just saw Charles Barkley!" He asked, "anyone else?" She ponders that question for a while before her 4 year old son points Stockton being in front of her out for her).

Eh, GoM can still succeed even in the NBA (probably much more then just succeed given that they're still growing). Especially Midorima's full court shot. That shit's unstoppable provided you give Midorima the right screens.

My bad, I meant manga-NBA, not real-life NBA. I'm not saying that they're not NBA material, but that in their reality, as they are now, they wouldn't be able to compare, either because they'd be outmatched (in terms of Kise, Aomine, and Murasakibara) or because they wouldn't be given an opportunity (Midorima and Akashi).

Aomine might still be ace actually because he can reliably activate zone.

Kise's another potential ace provided Akashi doesn't reveal some oh my god overpower ability.

His perfect copy is overpowered as fuck and he's the only player so far that Kagami isn't able to outplay at the end (yes I know that Kagami doesn't have Zone but Kise also didn't have Zone and he was stomping Kagami like how Zone Aomine was stomping Kagami without the zone).

Also there's some irony in the weakest of the GoM evolving into the strongest.

But this might all be my inner Kise fanboy talking.

Another thing to note is that Kagami seems like a inconsistent performer. Sure he's able to match Aomine and Murasakibara in deciding moments but regularly he doesn't perform as consistently as GoM. Aomine beat him when they went one on one easily and both Murasakibara and Tatsuya was kicking his ass at the start. Zone saved him in the end but he still can't activate it reliably. If such a team was created I imagine he would be benchwarmer for Aomine due to this.

Kagami is as strong as the plot needs him to be. He's the Shonen Jump archetype; his strength is only at its peak when the right combination of adversity, team spirit, etc. is achieved. But I agree that Fujimaki's pretty much made it canon that Kise is better than Kagami. That's why he had to aggravate Kise's injury -- for the plot.

Still a lot of players (especially superstars) have the does not give a shit about fan opinion syndrome.

Yeah, it's one of the unfortunate things about stars in general. Although that's one of the things I liked about Aomine at first. He represented the trash-talking arrogance but had the skills to back it up.

Originally Posted by iamadooddood

Fair enough.

Then remember the page with that magazine? How about the fact that their seniors separated Kuroko from the main 5.

Which page? What do you mean by separate?

I really don't get the hat-wearing pandas part. DotA reference?

Ah, I must be really bad at jokes. Some of the really bad translations came from MangaPanda (and they've got a panda wearing a hat on every page) and Mangainn.

He said "something happened", but didn't elaborate.

Can't find that reference anymore...

I'll try to find it when I have more time, but I'm pretty sure the "something happened" was the Ogiwara incident and before that he was talking about trust issues.

Same here. And I say he's doing it by retconning.

Grah! Here's the definition of retcon from Wikipedia: Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short, is the alteration of previously established facts in the continuity of a fictional work.

My point was that whether or not Kuroko is part of the GoM has never been established as a fact, which is a necessary condition for it to be a retcon.

Still Aomine. Kagami would be relegated to bench substitute.

Imagine an NBA team with that roster. It wouldn't last a season. Yikes.

Just so happened that those two guys were off-balance at the same time, I guess? Which is possible if they're guarding the same guy and making the same movements. Then he does a crossover and...

As for Kagami, I think it was more of pressing on some pressure point on Kagami's shoulder. Doing that to certain pressure points on one's body can render that person immobile for a while.

Ah, so in addition to being a superb shogi and basketball player, Akashi is now a master at martial arts. Tbh, making Kagami fall like that was the second time in this manga when I got uneasy vibes. I just hope we're not going to be seeing something ridiculous like the entire Seirin line-up falling during a single play.

[larethian]

Can't say KnB is realistic basketball; but it's just borderline magical I would say. At least it's way better than PoT. Y'know, recently I flipped through Jump SQ, and saw a character in new PoT holding two rackets (like dual wielding). Fantastic physics, magic, or ninjutsu or not, it's not even abiding by the tennis rules anymore LOL!

I like how the story is going to end instead of dragging needlessly until they finish high school. The premise starts off with Kuroko's differences with GoM, and the whole story seems to be about him reconciling that with them.

[Log]

Originally Posted by iamadooddood

I wonder if MJ or Kobe did that kind of street basketball from young. Because it seems like Aomine's body may just be much more naturally flexible than theirs so he can pull off all those stunts with a lower chance of injury than them.

They did. Kobe was already playing street basketball in Italy against adults when he was 12. MJ played basketball constantly as a teen so it's hard to imagine he didn't play street basketball.

And yeah I'm assuming that Aomine's more naturally flexiable but pulling the kind of shit he does on a constant basis borderline inhuman. You can't find someone with that kind of body in real life.

To me Midorima's shots might just be possible given his dedication to such coordination.

Superstars don't pull more then 90% threes during practice much less 100% half court shots hence it's unrealistic that Midorima can do that. Granted it is plausible that someone might appear with the superhuman coordination, concentration and most importantly confidence to do that so it's not unrealistic unrealistic yet but it's still somewhere on the unrealistic scale as long as no one achieves that.

For EE... don't some people IRL have ridiculous visual acuity?

Not to the point that they can see the same things as EE.

And EE awakened like something out of Naruto. You aren't going to convince me on this one.

But it's true that Aomine was among the top scorers when there were point wars (only Akashi could score as much, and Akashi would usually prefer to score the minimum number of points anyway).

http://www.batoto.net/read/_/186317/...kashi-scans/15

Originally Posted by Aomine

Easy there it's fine since you won right? Have someone treat you like Kise.

Aomine's saying that Midorima won here right?

Just so happened that those two guys were off-balance at the same time, I guess? Which is possible if they're guarding the same guy and making the same movements. Then he does a crossover and...

As for Kagami, I think it was more of pressing on some pressure point on Kagami's shoulder. Doing that to certain pressure points on one's body can render that person immobile for a while.

This is all highly unlikely but I guess I can accept it.

Note that Kise can only be this OP for a few minutes. The rest of the time he's the weakest of the 5.

I don't know about that. We don't know how much "normal" Kise improved since he was injured during the winter cup. Learning Perfect Copy should be some indication of growth and Midorima seems less impressive now to me.

Regardless Kise is the strongest with perfect copy (or a least stronger then any non zone character) and one of the key points of the "ace" is suppose to be elevating his play during critical moments which Kise can do consistently. There's also the factor that perfect copy can last 7 minutes which is more then half of one quarter. You'd be surprised at how much time that is.

Maybe the difference between base Kagami and zone Kagami is larger than that of base Aomine and zone Aomine? Or did Aomine's training pay off?

My theory is that Kagami seems to have less handle on his strength then the rest of the GoM because he awakened recently. Zone helps him concentrate and use all his strength in which case he's equal to Aomine.

Kise's learning rate is very fast. Babies and monkeys can easily copy what they see others do (and babies in particular learn very fast). Kise is just like that.

Baby's and Monkey's can't do it like how Kise does it.

This seems to be a recurring trend in GoM with it's abilities. Is it theoretically possible to do what the GoM does? Yes.

Can you actually do that shit in real life? lolnope.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

My bad, I meant manga-NBA, not real-life NBA. I'm not saying that they're not NBA material, but that in their reality, as they are now, they wouldn't be able to compare, either because they'd be outmatched (in terms of Kise, Aomine, and Murasakibara) or because they wouldn't be given an opportunity (Midorima and Akashi).

That's brings up a interesting topic. How strong is KnB NBA? We know they're a least as strong as GoM since start of series Kise can't copy their moves. We also know that Shaq exists since Murasakibara is compared to him. I wonder if the author is going to expend on that.

I mean it'll be very cool to see GoM vs NBA all stars in the manga.

Something like Kobe vs Aomine, Shaq vs Muraskibara, Lebron vs Kagami, Kise vs Durant, Paul vs Akashi, Allen vs Midorima should be a sight to see.

Kagami is as strong as the plot needs him to be. He's the Shonen Jump archetype; his strength is only at its peak when the right combination of adversity, team spirit, etc. is achieved. But I agree that Fujimaki's pretty much made it canon that Kise is better than Kagami. That's why he had to aggravate Kise's injury -- for the plot.

Pretty much yeah. Though about Kise being better then Kagami, we didn't see how perfect copy would fare against zone.

I understand that it's the author's way of trying to not get into a repetitive formula here but I want to see that match.

Yeah, it's one of the unfortunate things about stars in general. Although that's one of the things I liked about Aomine at first. He represented the trash-talking arrogance but had the skills to back it up.

Actually I sometimes like stars that ignore fans.

They feel more "real" compared to superstars that care to much about fans and act phony as a result.

Granted I expect them to still actually try in games if not for the fans then for their love of basketball (or money can't forget the money).

Imagine an NBA team with that roster. It wouldn't last a season. Yikes.

It wouldn't even be formed in the first place. Assuming that GoM+Kagami all become big stars if they go into the NBA, we're looking at some 20 million per player pay check. Adds up to 120 million. You also have to include the bench to. No team would pay that much.

Another thing is that NBA itself doesn't want to many superstars (especially big superstars) in one team. It creates a uneven match up and kills the excitement of rivals between superstars which isn't good for getting money. It's been speculated for years now that the top brass pulls strings in order to not let two big superstars in one team.

Originally Posted by larethian

Can't say KnB is realistic basketball; but it's just borderline magical I would say. At least it's way better than PoT. Y'know, recently I flipped through Jump SQ, and saw a character in new PoT holding two rackets (like dual wielding). Fantastic physics, magic, or ninjutsu or not, it's not even abiding by the tennis rules anymore LOL!

I like how the story is going to end instead of dragging needlessly until they finish high school. The premise starts off with Kuroko's differences with GoM, and the whole story seems to be about him reconciling that with them.

Spoiler for lolprinceoftennis:

Just make it a fighting manga already.

[kuroishinigami]

Originally Posted by iamadooddood

I wonder if MJ or Kobe did that kind of street basketball from young. Because it seems like Aomine's body may just be much more naturally flexible than theirs so he can pull off all those stunts with a lower chance of injury than them.

To me Midorima's shots might just be possible given his dedication to such coordination.

For EE... don't some people IRL have ridiculous visual acuity?

I literally lol'ed at the second statement there's a reason why even the best nba 3pt shooter can't make 100% of their open 3 pt shoot, let alone a half-court or full-court shot from different part of the court. There's a lot of factor that affect shooting ability, and the further you are, even the smallest mistake can make a big change in the final ball trajectory(for example, a small difference in slippery condition of your hand due to sweat, or even the smallest difference in ball release point). That's why no sane basketball player train half-court shot as their go to move and defender never try to defend that kind of shot except in end game situation(they'll live with result even if the shot connects).

Kuroko is far from realistic basketball as you can get, although I have to admit that it's not as bad as PoT

[BPD Renegade]

Originally Posted by Log

That's brings up a interesting topic. How strong is KnB NBA? We know they're a least as strong as GoM since start of series Kise can't copy their moves. We also know that Shaq exists since Murasakibara is compared to him. I wonder if the author is going to expend on that.

I mean it'll be very cool to see GoM vs NBA all stars in the manga.

Something like Kobe vs Aomine, Shaq vs Muraskibara, Lebron vs Kagami, Kise vs Durant, Paul vs Akashi, Allen vs Midorima should be a sight to see.

I approve of that match-up, with one exception: since Shaq's retired now, we should have Dwight instead. (Off-topic: Go Clippers and Thunder!)

About that GoM vs. world, I recently skimmed an old interview between Fujimaki and Togashi, and Togashi mentioned several times that he'd like to see it happen. Personally, I'd like to see a definitive end just to keep the story from spiraling into plotless-land, but Fujimaki sounded like a really big Togashi fan, so there is a chance he'll do it...

Pretty much yeah. Though about Kise being better then Kagami, we didn't see how perfect copy would fare against zone.

I understand that it's the author's way of trying to not get into a repetitive formula here but I want to see that match.

True. Although if we think about the characters' potentials future-wise, Kise should eventually outmatch Kagami. Kise's still growing as a player, and with that copy ability, almost anything Kagami learns can be copied. Plus, if Kise ever enters the zone while using perfect copy -- that would be sick.

Actually I sometimes like stars that ignore fans.

They feel more "real" compared to superstars that care a lot about fans and try to act phony on their feelings.

Granted I expect them to still actually try in games if not for the fans then for their love of basketball (or money can't forget the money).

I definitely don't like the phony attention-grabbing moments either. But I also don't like a lot of the above-the-law, it's-all-about-me mentality. My favorites are guys like Durant who are down-to-earth and don't try to play up the media.

It wouldn't even be formed in the first place. Assuming that GoM+Kagami all become big stars if they go into the NBA, we're looking at some 20 million per player pay check. Adds up to 120 million. You also have to include the bench to. No team would pay that much.

Another thing is that NBA itself doesn't want to many superstars (especially big superstars) in one team. It creates a uneven match up and kills the excitement of rivals between superstars which isn't good for getting money. It's been speculated for years now that the top brass pulls strings in order to not let two big superstars in one team.

But we still have our imaginations, right? The finances are always a pain, since teams are constantly letting good middle-men go for some extra cash for their stars. And a lot of people are still hating on the Heat for what they did (or is it mostly the Lebron debacle?), so I get the feeling it's not just the top brass against it.

Spoiler for lolprinceoftennis:

Just make it a fighting manga already.

What is that manga about anymore?

[iamadooddood]

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

My bad, I meant manga-NBA, not real-life NBA. I'm not saying that they're not NBA material, but that in their reality, as they are now, they wouldn't be able to compare, either because they'd be outmatched (in terms of Kise, Aomine, and Murasakibara) or because they wouldn't be given an opportunity (Midorima and Akashi).

Methinks Fujimaki will make manga NBA be the same as real life NBA. Not that it matters much; people at Mangafox say that Midorima's the only one who can survive there. Yes, in real life NBA.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

Which page? What do you mean by separate?

Spoiler:

You see how that guy talked about the main 5 first, then talked about Kuroko separately from them? Yeah, I meant that.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

Ah, I must be really bad at jokes. Some of the really bad translations came from MangaPanda (and they've got a panda wearing a hat on every page) and Mangainn.

Oh, them. I see what you mean.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

I'll try to find it when I have more time, but I'm pretty sure the "something happened" was the Ogiwara incident and before that he was talking about trust issues.

Hmm ok.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

Grah! Here's the definition of retcon from Wikipedia: Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short, is the alteration of previously established facts in the continuity of a fictional work.

My point was that whether or not Kuroko is part of the GoM has never been established as a fact, which is a necessary condition for it to be a retcon.

Readers initially assumed that Kuroko was certainly part of the GoM because they took public opinion in the manga to be fact (and since the GoM moniker came from public opinion, I should think it counts). Then the character bible came along.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

Imagine an NBA team with that roster. It wouldn't last a season. Yikes.

Then again, Kagami's skillsets are basically what Michael Jordan started out with...

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

Ah, so in addition to being a superb shogi and basketball player, Akashi is now a master at martial arts. Tbh, making Kagami fall like that was the second time in this manga when I got uneasy vibes. I just hope we're not going to be seeing something ridiculous like the entire Seirin line-up falling during a single play.

Akashi did say he doesn't lose at anything. In fact, it'd be more surprising if someone like him didn't know martial arts.

Originally Posted by larethian

Can't say KnB is realistic basketball; but it's just borderline magical I would say. At least it's way better than PoT. Y'know, recently I flipped through Jump SQ, and saw a character in new PoT holding two rackets (like dual wielding). Fantastic physics, magic, or ninjutsu or not, it's not even abiding by the tennis rules anymore LOL!

Certainly not magical.

Well those 2 data guys said dual wielding of tennis rackets was a legit move. As to whether it really is, I'm too lazy to check.

Originally Posted by Log

They did. Kobe was already playing street basketball in Italy against adults when he was 12. MJ played basketball constantly as a teen so it's hard to imagine he didn't play street basketball.

And yeah I'm assuming that Aomine's more naturally flexiable but pulling the kind of shit he does on a constant basis borderline inhuman. You can't find someone with that kind of body in real life.

12 and teens wasn't what I was thinking of. I was thinking that Aomine started even before first grade. Like age 5 or something. See flashback panels in chapters 49 and 136. Add that to a naturally very flexible body and you get flexibility at least on par with a gymnast's. Maybe more; I've seen the flexibility of some real life people on Taiwanese variety shows, and it's frightening.

Originally Posted by Log

Superstars don't pull more then 90% threes during practice much less 100% half court shots hence it's unrealistic that Midorima can do that. Granted it is plausible that someone might appear with the superhuman coordination, concentration and most importantly confidence to do that so it's not unrealistic unrealistic yet but it's still somewhere on the unrealistic scale as long as no one achieves that.

And luck. Don't forget luck. In fact IMO his luck is more ridiculous than anything else in his skillset.

Originally Posted by Log

Not to the point that they can see the same things as EE.

And EE awakened like something out of Naruto. You aren't going to convince me on this one.

You know those stories of how some normal warriors suddenly awaken in desperate situations in battles and from then on become gods of war due to heightened senses and instincts and all that stuff? I'm thinking something similar happened to Akashi.

In fact now that I think about it, part of how EE works probably involves his instincts as well.

Originally Posted by Log

http://www.batoto.net/read/_/186317/...kashi-scans/15



Aomine's saying that Midorima won here right?

I was thinking more of 2 pages before, but... someone who doesn't participate in point wars isn't usually considered the ace.

And even in the story itself people considered Aomine the ace even though the tournament in their third year was the most memorable to everyone.

Originally Posted by Log

I don't know about that. We don't know how much "normal" Kise improved since he was injured during the winter cup. Learning Perfect Copy should be some indication of growth and Midorima seems less impressive now to me.

Regardless Kise is the strongest with perfect copy (or a least stronger then any non zone character) and one of the key points of the "ace" is suppose to be elevating his play during critical moments which Kise can do consistently. There's also the factor that perfect copy can last 7 minutes which is more then half of one quarter. You'd be surprised at how much time that is.

At the very least, I doubt enough to beat Haizaki like the other GoM can.

7 minutes was only because he rested for so long. Usually it's half a quarter.

Originally Posted by Log

My theory is that Kagami seems to have less handle on his strength then the rest of the GoM because he awakened recently. Zone helps him concentrate and use all his strength in which case he's equal to Aomine.

Seems legit.

Originally Posted by Log

Baby's and Monkey's can't do it like how Kise does it.

This seems to be a recurring trend in GoM with it's abilities. Is it theoretically possible to do what the GoM does? Yes.

Can you actually do that shit in real life? lolnope.

I can't, duh. I'm lousy at basketball.

Well, Kise gives me the impression of someone who acts younger than he actually is so it made some sense to me.

And the GoM theoretically being able to do that kind of stuff, is the whole point of their existence really.

Originally Posted by Log

That's brings up a interesting topic. How strong is KnB NBA? We know they're a least as strong as GoM since start of series Kise can't copy their moves. We also know that Shaq exists since Murasakibara is compared to him. I wonder if the author is going to expend on that.

I mean it'll be very cool to see GoM vs NBA all stars in the manga.

Something like Kobe vs Aomine, Shaq vs Muraskibara, Lebron vs Kagami, Kise vs Durant, Paul vs Akashi, Allen vs Midorima should be a sight to see.

And Michael Jordan's Air Walk. Don't forget that.

As for real life/manga NBA comparison, see above.

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

I literally lol'ed at the second statement there's a reason why even the best nba 3pt shooter can't make 100% of their open 3 pt shoot, let alone a half-court or full-court shot from different part of the court. There's a lot of factor that affect shooting ability, and the further you are, even the smallest mistake can make a big change in the final ball trajectory(for example, a small difference in slippery condition of your hand due to sweat, or even the smallest difference in ball release point). That's why no sane basketball player train half-court shot as their go to move and defender never try to defend that kind of shot except in end game situation(they'll live with result even if the shot connects).

Kuroko is far from realistic basketball as you can get, although I have to admit that it's not as bad as PoT

You think Midorima, who tapes his fingers for protection while not playing basketball, and files his nails because "my shot touch can get affected by bad nails", would overlook mistakes like that? (How many NBA players do that?) Also, I think his dedication to luck plays a part too.

Yeah, it's possible to train like that, just that 99.9% of shooting guards don't because to them it's not worth it since they believe can become more useful in training other skills as compared to half- and full-court shots. It's just that Midorima believed that it was worth it.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

About that GoM vs. world, I recently skimmed an old interview between Fujimaki and Togashi, and Togashi mentioned several times that he'd like to see it happen. Personally, I'd like to see a definitive end just to keep the story from spiraling into plotless-land, but Fujimaki sounded like a really big Togashi fan, so there is a chance he'll do it...

A sequel to KnB would allow everything to go off well. I'm all for a sequel too.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

What is that manga about anymore?

Deadly tennis.

[Diamond English]

Special techs in sports manga is what makes sports manga interesting and when they not in them I lose interest quick. The only reason why I invested in KnB is some seriously overpowered kids in teams who have unrealistic god granted abilities that defy the top professional players in Basketball and the weak to strong protagonist team giving them chase for the end reward. Prince of Yaoi pairings(tennis) is fun because it's silly and over the top with it's characters and matches. If I want realism, I'll watch ESPN. Blame Captain Tsubasa and his Tiger shot, he started it..........or NBA Jam did.

[Meltyred]

Originally Posted by Diamond English

Special techs in sports manga is what makes sports manga interesting and when they not in them I lose interest quick. The only reason why I invested in KnB is some seriously overpowered kids in teams who have unrealistic god granted abilities that defy the top professional players in Basketball and the weak to strong protagonist team giving them chase for the end reward. Prince of Yaoi pairings(tennis) is fun because it's silly and over the top with it's characters and matches. If I want realism, I'll watch ESPN. Blame Captain Tsubasa and his Tiger shot, he started it..........or NBA Jam did.

Slam Dunk disagrees.
Or even stuff like Last inning.
No fancy moves in sports manga can be interesting, you just have to know how to make the plot interesting.

But it's true that the super powers make it interesting.
Well before it hits a point like SUPER PRINCE OF TENNIS Z.
I treat that like a comedy manga now.

[BPD Renegade]

Originally Posted by iamadooddood

Methinks Fujimaki will make manga NBA be the same as real life NBA. Not that it matters much; people at Mangafox say that Midorima's the only one who can survive there. Yes, in real life NBA.

What? Why would they say that? Midorima's the type of player who needs a good supporting cast to carry out his plays, otherwise he'd never have an opportunity to shoot. Individual skill-wise, I think he's the least likely to make it in real-life NBA.

Spoiler:

You see how that guy talked about the main 5 first, then talked about Kuroko separately from them? Yeah, I meant that.

Ah, okay. I had forgotten about that page.

Readers initially assumed that Kuroko was certainly part of the GoM because they took public opinion in the manga to be fact (and since the GoM moniker came from public opinion, I should think it counts). Then the character bible came along.

For disputed things like that, I have head canon, but I generally won't accept anything as canon unless it's specifically stated in a narrative text box or the like, or the manga has ended. Reading things like Pandora Hearts has left a deep, unhealed wound in me.

Then again, Kagami's skillsets are basically what Michael Jordan started out with...

For that roster, I meant it wouldn't last because of the squabbling that would inevitably occur. Can you imagine Kagami, Aomine, or Kise withstanding being benched game after game? There would be blood.

And luck. Don't forget luck. In fact IMO his luck is more ridiculous than anything else in his skillset.

Man proposes, God disposes./Do the likeliest and God will do the rest. What was the quote again? Anyway, it's official, Midorima has divine power on his side. Aomine, Kise and the others better throw their towels in now.

In fact now that I think about it, part of how EE works probably involves his instincts as well.

I can't wait to see his second ability. I hope it's something down-to-earth. Something completely on the opposite end of the magical spectrum than EE.

A sequel to KnB would allow everything to go off well. I'm all for a sequel too.

Exactly. If he wants to do it, it should be in a sequel. In the same interview though, he mentioned something about a golf manga, so who knows what will happen.

Originally Posted by Diamond English

Special techs in sports manga is what makes sports manga interesting and when they not in them I lose interest quick. The only reason why I invested in KnB is some seriously overpowered kids in teams who have unrealistic god granted abilities that defy the top professional players in Basketball and the weak to strong protagonist team giving them chase for the end reward. Prince of Yaoi pairings(tennis) is fun because it's silly and over the top with it's characters and matches. If I want realism, I'll watch ESPN. Blame Captain Tsubasa and his Tiger shot, he started it..........or NBA Jam did.

We're not criticizing KnB for not being realistic. We're just discussing the aspects of it.

Prince of Tennis completely derailed itself when it kept trying to create players that could top the others, and instead of doing it through skill, kept pulling out one new special move after another. And after it derailed itself, it kept chugging on through the frontier.

Originally Posted by Meltyred

Slam Dunk disagrees.
Or even stuff like Last inning.
No fancy moves in sports manga can be interesting, you just have to know how to make the plot interesting.

Yeah, I think KnB would still be interesting, even without the special techniques. IMO, its strengths lie in the execution of its premise and its characters. Tbh, I liked Midorima and Akashi less after seeing those long-range shots and the Eye.

[Log]

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

I approve of that match-up, with one exception: since Shaq's retired now, we should have Dwight instead. (Off-topic: Go Clippers and Thunder!)

Yeah, I'm aware that Shaq retired.

I just want to see Shaq vs Murasakibara because they seem similar in some ways. Shaq is also like Murasakibara someone that enjoys basketball because he's good at it (and he gets filthy rich off it) rather then actually enjoying basketball.

About that GoM vs. world, I recently skimmed an old interview between Fujimaki and Togashi, and Togashi mentioned several times that he'd like to see it happen. Personally, I'd like to see a definitive end just to keep the story from spiraling into plotless-land, but Fujimaki sounded like a really big Togashi fan, so there is a chance he'll do it...

Eh, I want to see a finale with GoM+Kagami+Kuroko+whoever else vs NBA all stars. Sorta like Eyeshield 21's ending.

True. Although if we think about the characters' potentials future-wise, Kise should eventually outmatch Kagami. Kise's still growing as a player, and with that copy ability, almost anything Kagami learns can be copied. Plus, if Kise ever enters the zone while using perfect copy -- that would be sick.

I was actually mulling over how the author is going to balance Kise if he does continue the series after the finals. I didn't come up with anything.........

I definitely don't like the phony attention-grabbing moments either. But I also don't like a lot of the above-the-law, it's-all-about-me mentality. My favorites are guys like Durant who are down-to-earth and don't try to play up the media.

I can agree with you on that. People like Vince Carter aren't likable to me either.

I was thinking more along the lines of Charles Barkley when I said people that don't give a shit about what fans think.

And yeah Durant is definitely one of the most likable superstars in the NBA now.

But we still have our imaginations, right? The finances are always a pain, since teams are constantly letting good middle-men go for some extra cash for their stars. And a lot of people are still hating on the Heat for what they did (or is it mostly the Lebron debacle?), so I get the feeling it's not just the top brass against it.

I don't think people had any problem with Wade and Lebron combining forces other then the perception that Lebron's being a pussy by joining forces with a rival.

It's how Lebron handled the whole thing that pissed people off. He basically waved a middle finger at the Cavaliers throughout the whole thing by betraying them despite how much both fans and the Cavaliers itself wanted him to stay (the Cavaliers offered him a very generous contract to stay). It also created the Lebron is phony perception since Lebron who's suppose to be a great teammate and friend to his Cavalier teammates didn't even bother to mention his teammates after he left (this also created joking rumors that one of his Cavalier teammates slept with Lebron's mom hence he didn't want to talk about his teammates).

Also the whole "taking my talents to south beach" quote is basically waiting for mocking. It's basically the quote of a spoiled superstar rather then a mature one.

Take note though that I'm only against how Lebron left the Cavaliers rather then the decision itself. Lebron wasn't going to won a ring in the Cavaliers with his teammates there and given how he was literally wasting away the twilight of his career it must have been frustrating to him.

What is that manga about anymore?

Super tennis Z.

Originally Posted by iamadooddood

Methinks Fujimaki will make manga NBA be the same as real life NBA. Not that it matters much; people at Mangafox say that Midorima's the only one who can survive there. Yes, in real life NBA.

A lot of people in manga fox aren't the brightest lot to put it nicely.

Then again, Kagami's skillsets are basically what Michael Jordan started out with...

Naw MJ is more of a Aomine without that much twisting and turning. His ability to adjust in air is his trademark.

Also a lot of people forget that what makes MJ so great isn't his physical skills, it's not even his basketball skills, it's his ability to see the flow of the game and take control at a critical moment that makes him so great. There's a reason why even at age 35, a age where all the physical skills of youth disappeared he's still critical for winning finals.

Kagami can't come close to that mental ability even when MJ started of in the NBA. That's why Kuroko is there to pick up the slack for Kagami.

12 and teens wasn't what I was thinking of. I was thinking that Aomine started even before first grade. Like age 5 or something. See flashback panels in chapters 49 and 136. Add that to a naturally very flexible body and you get flexibility at least on par with a gymnast's. Maybe more; I've seen the flexibility of some real life people on Taiwanese variety shows, and it's frightening.

People in shows go through life training starting from age 3 to get that kind of flexibility. You can't achieve that with just street basketball.

And luck. Don't forget luck. In fact IMO his luck is more ridiculous than anything else in his skillset.

Luck is pretty supernatural shit though.

You know those stories of how some normal warriors suddenly awaken in desperate situations in battles and from then on become gods of war due to heightened senses and instincts and all that stuff? I'm thinking something similar happened to Akashi.

No?

Nobody did anything like EE in history as far as I'm aware of.

In fact now that I think about it, part of how EE works probably involves his instincts as well.

Speculations.

I suppose we can agree to disagree on this.

I was thinking more of 2 pages before, but... someone who doesn't participate in point wars isn't usually considered the ace.

That was during the match Aomine and Akashi was leading. Midorima evidently caught up during the match.

And even in the story itself people considered Aomine the ace even though the tournament in their third year was the most memorable to everyone.

Aomine has the most memorable style of basketball which is probably why most people look at him so highly.

At the very least, I doubt enough to beat Haizaki like the other GoM can.

Haizaki had a style that is tailored to counter his and also it was noted that Kise still hasn't recovered from his match with Aomine.

7 minutes was only because he rested for so long. Usually it's half a quarter.

It was specifically stated that Kise managed to expend the time somehow, there's nothing that noted that it was because he rest up that his time expended.

I can't, duh. I'm lousy at basketball.

Well, Kise gives me the impression of someone who acts younger than he actually is so it made some sense to me.

And the GoM theoretically being able to do that kind of stuff, is the whole point of their existence really.

I guess?

Still until something remotely close to what the GoM does happen (excluding Murasakibara since there's already Shaq, Howard and Lebron that has a similar style to him) I'm firmly of belief that it's unrealistic.

Originally Posted by Diamond English

Special techs in sports manga is what makes sports manga interesting and when they not in them I lose interest quick. The only reason why I invested in KnB is some seriously overpowered kids in teams who have unrealistic god granted abilities that defy the top professional players in Basketball and the weak to strong protagonist team giving them chase for the end reward. Prince of Yaoi pairings(tennis) is fun because it's silly and over the top with it's characters and matches. If I want realism, I'll watch ESPN. Blame Captain Tsubasa and his Tiger shot, he started it..........or NBA Jam did.

There's a shitload of sports manga that mange to retain their realism and still be good.

In fact for manga like Baby Steps it's realism is considered a good thing.

And the reason why Prince of Tennis is so disliked is not only because it's unrealistic. It has ridiculously one dimensional characters, a boring plot and shitty pacing.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

What? Why would they say that? Midorima's the type of player who needs a good supporting cast to carry out his plays, otherwise he'd never have an opportunity to shoot. Individual skill-wise, I think he's the least likely to make it in real-life NBA.

If he remains as he is now without screens or help from teammates he definitely needs to work for his shots. Given that most NBA members are taller then he is he would need to beat them off the dribble or outrun them to get a shot off which can tire him out quickly.

Although factoring in personality Aomine before Seiren beat him probably would be the least likely to survive in the NBA. No one likes a arrogant ballhog that doesn't practice.

And current Kise or maybe Akashi (provided he can control his whole "I MUST WIN EVERYTHING" side) can probably thrive in the NBA best.