GATE - Weapons and Technology

[Brother Coa]

Now that would be a blast.

[Tangowr]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Quantity over quality.

If 10 AA missile won't do dent fire 100.
Even a tank, if you hit it with enough projectiles, will be destroyed.

You have no idea on what you're talking about, do you?

[Brother Coa]

I do, even if ordinary AA missile cannot harm it there are specialist one that can.
Load them, fire them wave after wave after wave and they will bring it down.

Standard strategy when you face something big and tough, take something that can even make a slightest dent in it ( for example, that anti-tank missile ) and just fire as much as you can until you bring it down.

Not even diamonds can stand for long after being hit by constant pressure over and over again.

[yanzzy5]

Originally Posted by Tangowr

Not enough penetration, a Plane is alot more fragile then a flame dragon, a literal flying tank.

The AA missle won't do anything to a tank, similiar to a dragon.

And that's depending on if current radar tech can lock on to a dragon and hit it, when it's said to be as fast as a harrier and as maneuravable as a helicopter

Well it wont be entirely useless by the looks of the dragon in the manga/anime the wings of the thing seems to be soft, large and thin(though how tough I dont know). And whens its on the ground, pick any weapon thats designed to take down heavily armored vehicles then presto dragon kabobs for everyone

[The 48th Ronin]

Almost anything other than heat-seekers are useless against a living target.

If penetrating power is the way to go, get some high-caliber guns.

[Tangowr]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

I do, even if ordinary AA missile cannot harm it there are specialist one that can.
Load them, fire them wave after wave after wave and they will bring it down.

Standard strategy when you face something big and tough, take something that can even make a slightest dent in it ( for example, that anti-tank missile ) and just fire as much as you can until you bring it down.

Not even diamonds can stand for long after being hit by constant pressure over and over again.

And how would they keep shooting missle, when it takes hours to prep a plane with X amount of missle, and the dragon won't sit still?

Any other strategy would make more sense then your impossible million missle launch from videogame planes.

Watch the next few episode, see if they take out the scene where the various other branch(Air, Tank, Infintary officer) discuss on how to take out a ancient dragon with their current gear(No A-10, Tungsten round, or Depleted uranium round)

[Brother Coa]

Easy, bring more planes. Like it's hard for them to send 10 or 20 of them into battle.

The point is - dragon has weak spots ( eyes, mouth, limbs etc ). Target those and he will die from either shock or bleeding out. Combine attacks from all 3 branches should do the trick. It will cost them but better that than leaving it alone.

It's tough, but it is not indestructible. That's my point.

[Tangowr]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Easy, bring more planes. Like it's hard for them to send 10 or 20 of them into battle.

The point is - dragon has weak spots ( eyes, mouth, limbs etc ). Target those and he will die from either shock or bleeding out. Combine attacks from all 3 branches should do the trick. It will cost them but better that than leaving it alone.

It's tough, but it is not indestructible. That's my point.

And where would the pilot and support team come from?

And targeting a dragon, it's not a sitting target, it's a literal flying tank that is as maneurvable as a helicopter, and as fast as a harrier jet.

The JSDF only have the F4 Jet, which has these weapons

20MM gunpods...with AP rounds...maybe? But most jet only have 3~5 second of straight fire time, unlike the videogame version of 4 Million rounds that can shoot for a 30 minute game.

Anti-air missle, won't hurt the dragon, since it's literally a flying tank, and AA missle depends on force and sharpnel to shred a plane<Not as durable as a tank, and lighter/not as hard material, but might be able to shred the wings?

AIM-9 Sidewinder uses infrared homing or heat seeking, so might be able to lock on, since dragon breath fire, so it's body temp is probabely high.

AIM-7 Sparrow uses semi-active radar homing, so would require a external source to reflect radar off the target, not sure how viable that is.

AIM-4 Falcon - Comes in radar and heatseeking, but it's only useful against bomber, and useless against more maneurvable target, so useless.

And the JSDF also armed their F4 with their own AA missle

The Mitsubishi AAM-4 which uses Active Radar homing, but that still depend on if the dragon can be detected by radar, and again, it's a Anti air missle.

You need anti-armor to take out the ancient dragon, which as scale as hard as tungsten(1 scale below diamond) and 1/7 the weight of our equilivant tungsten.

And bleeding out, we already have 1 dragon that got it's arm blown off, and isn't worse for wear, as it's still terrorizing gate denzion.

And I'm not saying the dragon is unbeatable, I'm saying that your idea of using only one weapon against it is not what any military would do.

What would happen in any military operation would use multiple branch, Infantry as recon, probabely laser guidance system, and Panzerfaust for emergency, F4 with Anti-armor bomb with the laser guidance if the dragon is away, try and hit it before it knows what happen.

But just in case, have other F4 with AA supporting, to hit it to lower range, where Armored with Flak can try and shred the wing, and other tank can engage it with helicopter using their gatling and rocket and hellfire.

Basicly, hit it with everything in their arsenal, not just focus on one weapon that won't work well.

[watisit]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Quantity over quality.

If 10 AA missile won't do dent fire 100.
Even a tank, if you hit it with enough projectiles, will be destroyed.

If I gave you all the bullets you want, but for an AK-47 do you think you can take down a tank?

Numbers only start to count once they have some quality

[francescoG1]

Originally Posted by Tangowr

You need anti-armor to take out the ancient dragon, which as scale as hard as tungsten(1 scale below diamond)

No, tungsten carbide is 1 scale below diamond not metallic tungsten (7.5-8 Mohs scale, similar to Hardened steel)...

[The 48th Ronin]

Why a lot of people insist on missile spamming? This isn't Gundam.

And (guided) missiles aren't exactly cheap to produce. Why would they waste hundreds of it on a few dragons?

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by watisit

If I gave you all the bullets you want, but for an AK-47 do you think you can take down a tank?

-_-

I was of course talking about weapons that can counter in. Similar to how Soviets used 10+ T-34's to bring down one Tiger tank.

Originally Posted by Captain Orange

Why a lot of people insist on missile spamming? This isn't Gundam.

Not just missiles, but bullets and tank shells as well.
Because we all know the golden rule of war when it comes to difficult situations and opponents:

Spoiler for spoiler:

[Juke16]

I'm not sure why there is so much discourse on such a small issue. While the dragon scales have a material strength equivalent to titanium, there is still much in the Japanese arsenal that can kill it. 105mm APFSDS rounds from the Type 74's L7 cannon for example, TOW-2 tandem warhead ATGMs from Cobras, or Mavericks from F4s, all of these things can easily track and kill a dragon. Not to mention 20mm can at least shred up a dragon's wing and immobilize it. JSDF can also rely on LMAT 1 for an infantry portable AT weapon.

As you guys can see, dragons are big targets, spit fire (which most tanks can just shrug off anyways), and are not invulnerable.

[Top Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Juke16

I'm not sure why there is so much discourse on such a small issue. While the dragon scales have a material strength equivalent to titanium, there is still much in the Japanese arsenal that can kill it. 105mm APFSDS rounds from the Type 74's L7 cannon for example, TOW-2 tandem warhead ATGMs from Cobras, or Mavericks from F4s, all of these things can easily track and kill a dragon. Not to mention 20mm can at least shred up a dragon's wing and immobilize it. JSDF can also rely on LMAT 1 for an infantry portable AT weapon.

As you guys can see, dragons are big targets, spit fire (which most tanks can just shrug off anyways), and are not invulnerable.

Point of order, I agree with most of this but tanks really can't shrug off fire. Fire is still a fairly effective weapon against them. It can suffocate the engine, and no tank I'm aware of is entirely free of petroleum residue somewhere in it/ on it which can catch fire, and if that goes on long enough can bake the crew or at least force them to bail out.

[Juke16]

Originally Posted by Top Sergeant

Point of order, I agree with most of this but tanks really can't shrug off fire. Fire is still a fairly effective weapon against them. It can suffocate the engine, and no tank I'm aware of is entirely free of petroleum residue somewhere in it/ on it which can catch fire, and if that goes on long enough can bake the crew or at least force them to bail out.

With a WW2 tank this would be the case, modern tanks equipped with NBC systerms are able to withstand nuclear blasts at close range. A Soviet T-55, a tank which is far older than the Type 74, has a NBC system that allows crew survival 700m from the epicenter of a 15 kiloton nuclear blast.

As for extended periods of being exposed to high temperatures, I give you the this video to demonstrate the effectiveness of modern NBC systems:
https://youtu.be/MiWCpIJ5dBw?t=18m24s

[Top Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Juke16

With a WW2 tank this would be the case, modern tanks equipped with NBC systerms are able to withstand nuclear blasts at close range. A Soviet T-55, a tank which is far older than the Type 74, has a NBC system that allows crew survival 700m from the epicenter of a 15 kiloton nuclear blast.

As for extended periods of being exposed to high temperatures, I give you the this video to demonstrate the effectiveness of modern NBC systems:
https://youtu.be/MiWCpIJ5dBw?t=18m24s

Yeah, I get the NBC and nuke stuff, but I'm not talking about penetrating the armor. As a former infantryman I'll assure you that NO tanker likes to run into molotov cocktails. And all tank engines need oxygen: if its intakes are clogged by fire-eating oxygen they choke. Also, tanks in combat always have crap strapped to them that burn: camo nets, ration boxes, fuel cans, rucks and duffels, etc. And no tank ever made doesn't have grease, oil, or lubricant in its engine compartment, turret ring, or somewhere.

Fire is NOT a primary method of knocking out tanks because its never quick like a hit from a sabot round or ATGM. However, it certainly can work, especially the longer the fire burns.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by Top Sergeant

Yeah, I get the NBC and nuke stuff, but I'm not talking about penetrating the armor. As a former infantryman I'll assure you that NO tanker likes to run into molotov cocktails. And all tank engines need oxygen: if its intakes are clogged by fire-eating oxygen they choke. Also, tanks in combat always have crap strapped to them that burn: camo nets, ration boxes, fuel cans, rucks and duffels, etc. And no tank ever made doesn't have grease, oil, or lubricant in its engine compartment, turret ring, or somewhere.

Fire is NOT a primary method of knocking out tanks because its never quick like a hit from a sabot round or ATGM. However, it certainly can work, especially the longer the fire burns.

It obviously depends on tank, but the one in the video linked had no trouble getting bathed in napalm fire for minutes, which is obviously worse then improvised molotov cocktails. This is also by now an ancient tank as it is one of the early post WW2 designs. So a modern tank would only be more vulnerable if they skimp on the NBC protection.

[Top Sergeant]

1) Was there anyone inside the tank?

2) If so,what were they wearing: standard uniform or heat/fire resistant suits and rebreathers? It would get really hot after just a little while. There might be some sort of active coolant system for the crew compartment. Armored vehicles can get unbearable hot just operating in the desert, or even just summer sunshine. I've never been in a burning one, and never want to be!

I wish I could understand Swedish then I could at least understand what the narrator is saying.


For some reason in the sequence with the bombing run there is a cable of some kind coming down from the center of the tank's bow. Control cable? Maybe that's what that big cable is on the ground in the foreground.

If that was a manned tank, my hat is definitely off to them. Pretty damn brave to sit inside a target in the impact area.


To make this relative to the Anime, dragon flame could definitely set a tank on fire. How likely that is depends on its intensity and how prone the Type 74 is to being set alight (which is the tank the JSDF is using in the Special Area). Brief exposure will probably be OK, but nothing is certain. Anything carried externally would almost certainly catch fire in dragon breath. If the tank is carrying a machinegun mounted by the turret hatches its ammunition could cook off, which would be bad for any supporting infantry and might dislodge the hatch, compromising the crew compartment. There is also the possibility of panic if the tank is wrapped in flames, the most dangerous person to panic would be the driver.

Tanks would be a reasonable weapon with which to take on the dragon, just don't roll up to it without a plan thinking you're invulnerable. That sort of assumption leads to casualties. I like the idea that Lieutenant Colonel worked out in the Tavern in the last episode. Basically a combined arms "pound it with every big hammer we have" plan.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by Top Sergeant

1) Was there anyone inside the tank?

2) If so,what were they wearing: standard uniform or heat/fire resistant suits and rebreathers? It would get really hot after just a little while. There might be some sort of active coolant system for the crew compartment. Armored vehicles can get unbearable hot just operating in the desert, or even just summer sunshine. I've never been in a burning one, and never want to be!

I wish I could understand Swedish then I could at least understand what the narrator is saying.


For some reason in the sequence with the bombing run there is a cable of some kind coming down from the center of the tank's bow. Control cable? Maybe that's what that big cable is on the ground in the foreground.

If that was a manned tank, my hat is definitely off to them. Pretty damn brave to sit inside a target in the impact area.


To make this relative to the Anime, dragon flame could definitely set a tank on fire. How likely that is depends on its intensity and how prone the Type 74 is to being set alight (which is the tank the JSDF is using in the Special Area). Brief exposure will probably be OK, but nothing is certain. Anything carried externally would almost certainly catch fire in dragon breath. If the tank is carrying a machinegun mounted by the turret hatches its ammunition could cook off, which would be bad for any supporting infantry and might dislodge the hatch, compromising the crew compartment. There is also the possibility of panic if the tank is wrapped in flames, the most dangerous person to panic would be the driver.

Tanks would be a reasonable weapon with which to take on the dragon, just don't roll up to it without a plan thinking you're invulnerable. That sort of assumption leads to casualties. I like the idea that Lieutenant Colonel worked out in the Tavern in the last episode. Basically a combined arms "pound it with every big hammer we have" plan.

There are English subtitles that you can turn on for the video, so knowing Swedish is not a requirement.

1) Nope, remote controlled.

It did contain sensors and they measured the temperature inside the tank during the tests though and it topped out at 40 C. They talk about the expected effects on a crew during several tests and I assume they used something like crash test dummies for cars that have lots of sensors to measure effects of impacts.

I also think the general toss everything at it plan sounded good. The tank part especially as while sending a lone tank against the dragon would be bad so would it be ideal as support for a coordinated attack. It's easy to forget that tank guns are pretty accurate and it's no harder to hit a stationary hovering helicopter/Dragon then a stationary tank. So having tank(s) along ready to take any good shots while attacking the dragon with more mobile elements is a good plan.

[BlueWay]

Personally I don't even see the need for anything much more than maybe mechanized units needed to bring down an ancient flame dragon or an equivalent if we're going by realistic standards.

I'm judging this based off of the Panzerfaust hit that was preformed early on, granted it was just an arm, but even then for it to have such good effect on target wouldn't throw just a few coordinated ATGM teams out of the picture if it came down to taking it down.

I don't read too much into, mostly because I don't have much respect for the so called tactical application of a live dragon in the field in modern warfare, much less how they would weather it. Over analysis really, I believe.