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Old 2013-06-05, 13:11   Link #1
ellessarr
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possible new law who can affect animes/mangas/ln

hello guys i was reading some others forums when i see this:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...y-law-revision

for what i read the japaneses is about to make a really big change in the anime/manga/ln marked with a "possible new law", according to this new law the "lolicons" and shotacons will be doomed, because this will be restric the use of "too much young characters(lolis) in fanservice/ecchi scenes/panels, and will rise the of the minimum age to buys many mangas/animes/ln with this type of material to 18 years.

looks like finally the days of the lolicons at end, the world is doomed.

here is the full story:

Spoiler:

another link about:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...-revision-bill
Spoiler:

what do you think?
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Old 2013-06-05, 13:20   Link #2
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Lolicons will find a way
SaintessHeart will be pretty devastated though with the decline in loli doujins
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Old 2013-06-05, 13:29   Link #3
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I thought Japan has declining birth rate?
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Old 2013-06-05, 14:08   Link #4
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Nothing happened in 2011, nothing will happen now.

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Old 2013-06-05, 14:38   Link #5
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Even if it did, the Internet treats censorship as a malfunction and routes around it.
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Old 2013-06-05, 14:55   Link #6
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Frankly, I wouldn't mind all female characters hit puberty before showing up on a anime-related media.

It is just so many good classics (I.E Kamidori alchemist) feature at least one loli character, and shooting a otherwise great game for one character is dumb and stupid.

Quote:
sexual images of individuals under 18 illegal
Every country need to address this, United States included. Think about it, 90% of Rom-Com LN/maga characters are high school age (see under 18). And one could argue Asuka and Rei from Eva can be classified as "sexual" when they show up in a tank top or bikini.

So police might as well ring around anime/sci-fi convention and mass arrest everyone there for pedophilia and be done with it.
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Old 2013-06-05, 15:16   Link #7
ellessarr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Frankly, I wouldn't mind all female characters hit puberty before showing up on a anime-related media.

It is just so many good classics (I.E Kamidori alchemist) feature at least one loli character, and shooting a otherwise great game for one character is dumb and stupid.



Every country need to address this, United States included. Think about it, 90% of Rom-Com LN/maga characters are high school age (see under 18). And one could argue Asuka and Rei from Eva can be classified as "sexual" when they show up in a tank top or bikini.

So police might as well ring around anime/sci-fi convention and mass arrest everyone there for pedophilia and be done with it.
i think this is more about "what their are doing" in the panel than just have then in panel, for exemple bikinis or swinsuits for girls and guy are fine if the character not appear making too much sexual poses in the panel, a good exemple of manga/anime who will be doomed bys this law is to love ru darness, while manga/animes like fairy tail or yu-gi-oh or OP almost dont have any effects.

the only who really be affected are the "ecchi" or too much overboard fanservice with this law for what i see
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Old 2013-06-05, 15:24   Link #8
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I really doubt that this is enforceable. Unless they actually intend to jail every last otaku out there. I mean, given how the overwhelming majority of anime is now focused on high school characters, just about all of it would run afoul of the "Under 18" standard.

While it is true that many professional made anime never get explicitly sexual, or even ecchi, with its characters (K-On, Madoka Magica, etc...), the issue with these will be the fanworks.

So this law to me sounds like classic overreaching, which is often done for PR show rather than anything concrete.
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Old 2013-06-05, 16:12   Link #9
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The issue with this proposed amendment is the incredibly vague definition.

By Dan Kanemitsu, who has covered this issue extensively.
Quote:
1) Any pose of a child engaged in sexual intercourse or any conduct similar to sexual intercourse;
2) Any pose of a child having his or her sex organs, etc. touched by another person or of a child touching another person’s sex organs, etc., which arouses or stimulates the viewer’s sexual desire;
3) Any pose of a child wholly or partially naked, which arouses or stimulates the viewer’s sexual desire.

In legal terms, child means anyone under the age of 18. If this definition is maintained and law is expanded to include manga and anime, vast amount of material that is not even considered worthy of being classified as harmful to youth would become illegal to draw, show, read or watch in Japan.

Child pornography law does not allow an artist merit defense. It does not differentiate between obscene or non-obscene. It does not care if the work is a national treasure nor if it was doodled on a bathroom wall.
This isn't like the earlier regulation where they only wanted to restrict how things were sold/classified. This is making possession of said material illegal and subject to fines and jail time. But with a vague definition like the above, a whole ton of anime and manga could be deemed by some officer to qualify. Although they say at the moment that they would only use it to go after "egregious offences", nobody knows what exactly is okay and what isn't. They can change the rules at any time without notice, and claim it's all covered under the law. There's also no exception for anything in the past either.

The biggest issue is the chilling effect as artists, publishers, and distributors take measures to avoid any risk of running afoul of this poorly-defined law. It's one thing to have a rating slapped on you, but another when you may face time in jail. Thinking "nothing happened last time, and nothing will happen again" is pretty naive because this is an entirely different level of law trying to do an entirely different thing.

The amendment also proposed to perform an investigation of the connection between sexual violence against children and anime/manga, and amend the law further in three years based on that investigation. But it does not say that the investigation will be performed by an objective third-party or be subject to any external oversight. So if the government wants to, they can just appoint whoever they want to arrive at a conclusion they want, and then they're required to change the law in light of that conclusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ellessarr View Post
a good exemple of manga/anime who will be doomed bys this law is to love ru darness, while manga/animes like fairy tail or yu-gi-oh or OP almost dont have any effects.
It's interesting that you mention Fairy Tail, because the managka posted just the other day that he'd have to make changes even to that manga...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro Mashima
ナツ>ベストの前を閉めてくださいね。
グレイ>脱ぎグセという設定は無しで。
女子キャラ>お色気シーン全カット。
ウェンディ>ドロップアウト
その他、水着回、お風呂回は一切ありません。僕は該当する単行本と原稿を処分しなくてはなりま せん。
Quote:
Originally Posted by Translation by @bikasuishin
FAIRYTAIL's @hiro_mashima mentions changes if the CP reform bill passes: button up Natsu's vest, have Gray wear something above the waist, no more sexy scenes with the girls, eliminate Wendy. Bath episodes, swimsuit episodes never again. Will have to dispose of all sketches and books that do not fulfill those criteria.
Anyway, even if you think that it maybe wouldn't be such a bad thing if the industry were more heavily-regulated, the key point is that this particular law is poorly-written and over-reaching, without any of the safeguards that normally protect legitimate expression. That's the reason why so many industry groups are so vehemently opposed. The best hope at the moment is that things get delayed in bureaucracy and the amendment dies before the end of the session, but the proponents have a super-majority and can all but push the law in place. So we'll see what happens, I guess...
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Old 2013-06-05, 16:24   Link #10
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^Fairy Tail mangaka is obviously protesting there.

Anyway, as many have said, we have been through this before, nothing will happen. Even Dan himself says it's unenforceable.
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Old 2013-06-05, 17:04   Link #11
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Originally Posted by K. Shiruto View Post
Anyway, as many have said, we have been through this before, nothing will happen. Even Dan himself says it's unenforceable.
That's not actually what he's saying, though. Actually going after everyone for absolutely everything is unenforceable. But the chilling effect of vague regulation has already had effects (multiple websites have begun altering their listing policies in advance of this law to avoid being targeted by the police). All they need to do is to make a few anime/manga-related arrests, and it has a ripple effect throughout the community where the impacts are not necessarily immediately seen. Even the last set of regulation did actually result in the cancellation of a number of known works, and who knows what number of works in the planning stages. How much needs to happen before it counts as "something"?

Besides, I don't even understand this attitude. If we just shrug at every law or legislation put forward like "meh, nothing will happen", how will you be able to tell when something actually will happen, and by then won't it be too late? It's pretty damn important to protest bad poorly-written legislation, even if you don't think it's realistically enforceable to the most extreme extent imaginable. (Not everyone wants to play a game of "chicken" with the police when they can change the rules whenever they want with no recourse.)
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Old 2013-06-05, 17:26   Link #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
That's not actually what he's saying, though. Actually going after everyone for absolutely everything is unenforceable. But the chilling effect of vague regulation has already had effects (multiple websites have begun altering their listing policies in advance of this law to avoid being targeted by the police). All they need to do is to make a few anime/manga-related arrests, and it has a ripple effect throughout the community where the impacts are not necessarily immediately seen. Even the last set of regulation did actually result in the cancellation of a number of known works, and who knows what number of works in the planning stages. How much needs to happen before it counts as "something"?
Largely out of curiosity, which works were cancelled as a result of the last set of regulations?


Quote:
Besides, I don't even understand this attitude. If we just shrug at every law or legislation put forward like "meh, nothing will happen", how will you be able to tell when something actually will happen, and by then won't it be too late? It's pretty damn important to protest bad poorly-written legislation, even if you don't think it's realistically enforceable to the most extreme extent imaginable. (Not everyone wants to play a game of "chicken" with the police when they can change the rules whenever they want with no recourse.)
I could understand this argument... if we were Japanese citizens. The vast majority of us here are not. Why would a Japanese politician care what an anime fan living in America, Canada, or Europe thinks about Japan's laws? They're not even potentially losing votes with us, of course.

So really, what more can we do than hope for the best?
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Old 2013-06-05, 17:32   Link #13
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Besides, I don't even understand this attitude. If we just shrug at every law or legislation put forward like "meh, nothing will happen", how will you be able to tell when something actually will happen, and by then won't it be too late? It's pretty damn important to protest bad poorly-written legislation, even if you don't think it's realistically enforceable to the most extreme extent imaginable. (Not everyone wants to play a game of "chicken" with the police when they can change the rules whenever they want with no recourse.)
We probably can do very little about that except cross our fingers.

The last thing we want is that the Japanese legislators will listen to what people from other countries have to say on the subject.

Still I've become so much accustomed to scaremongering articles about censorship of anime in Japan that I can't help but taking this with a grain of salt.
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Old 2013-06-05, 18:10   Link #14
ellessarr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
The issue with this proposed amendment is the incredibly vague definition.

By Dan Kanemitsu, who has covered this issue extensively.


This isn't like the earlier regulation where they only wanted to restrict how things were sold/classified. This is making possession of said material illegal and subject to fines and jail time. But with a vague definition like the above, a whole ton of anime and manga could be deemed by some officer to qualify. Although they say at the moment that they would only use it to go after "egregious offences", nobody knows what exactly is okay and what isn't. They can change the rules at any time without notice, and claim it's all covered under the law. There's also no exception for anything in the past either.

The biggest issue is the chilling effect as artists, publishers, and distributors take measures to avoid any risk of running afoul of this poorly-defined law. It's one thing to have a rating slapped on you, but another when you may face time in jail. Thinking "nothing happened last time, and nothing will happen again" is pretty naive because this is an entirely different level of law trying to do an entirely different thing.

The amendment also proposed to perform an investigation of the connection between sexual violence against children and anime/manga, and amend the law further in three years based on that investigation. But it does not say that the investigation will be performed by an objective third-party or be subject to any external oversight. So if the government wants to, they can just appoint whoever they want to arrive at a conclusion they want, and then they're required to change the law in light of that conclusion.

It's interesting that you mention Fairy Tail, because the managka posted just the other day that he'd have to make changes even to that manga...





Anyway, even if you think that it maybe wouldn't be such a bad thing if the industry were more heavily-regulated, the key point is that this particular law is poorly-written and over-reaching, without any of the safeguards that normally protect legitimate expression. That's the reason why so many industry groups are so vehemently opposed. The best hope at the moment is that things get delayed in bureaucracy and the amendment dies before the end of the session, but the proponents have a super-majority and can all but push the law in place. So we'll see what happens, I guess...
i think this translation is wrong, because where i read mashima said only who will not be affected:

For those who are asking what mashima's tweets could be all about,
he's actually referring to this:

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...-revision-bill

Ken Akamatsu, mashima's friend, has been opposing the bill. Mashima retweeted the Huffington Post Japan tweet that Akamatsu was talking about. Mashima retweeted a new article on the subject, then posted a tweet of how this bill could have an impact on Fairy Tail. He then stated that he's for things that would help to stop child pornography and such, but passing a bill that regulates anime and manga is a separate matter.
In short, Mashima has not been censored. He's responding to a request to help raise awareness of a badly written, overreaching law, that if passed, could badly affect anime and manga.

and today allmost of the ft cast in gmg allmost of the mashima characters are 18+ only we have 4 characters under this age and only 2 of then have bath scenes(wendy and chelia) we have wendy, chelia, romeo and asuka, and only wendy and chelia was used for fanservice very light only with bikini scenes

all others characters already at 18+ age even lucy, from the start of the manga until tenroujima arc passed 6 months then we get the 7 years timeskip then their get back near the start of 791 year then we get another 6 months until gmg who give to everyone who get in tenroujima at last 1 year old of age and the others aged 7 years

this means who now natsu and gray are at last in 19 years old, lucy is at 18(her birth is july 1, she made 18 1 day before gmg start).

this almost no effect FT, and even the ovas are sold restricted to 18 years old age.

and this only will affect true strong ecchi mangas/animes and good amount of fanservice, pool and beachs still being possible, and swinsuits this only will be more about "bath" scenes(nude), like i said the onlys manga/animes who will really be hurt are the onlys who are heavy created around the ecchi like to love ru or sora no otoshimono.

well the way who the law is it at now indeed is few crazy their need make some clearing like making this to guys and girls around 14 or less age(who are childrens) heavy law, for guys and girls between 15 and 16 a few more soft let only fanservice like the bath scenes without any real sexual action or pantsu shots and things like that then 17+ being more ecchi.

today we have
childrend
0-14
15-17 - teenager
18+ adult
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Old 2013-06-05, 18:18   Link #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Largely out of curiosity, which works were cancelled as a result of the last set of regulations?
I'm not sure if there's a complete list of the entire impact, but at least here are the six that were originally proposed. Aki Sora stopped being published as a result (and this, despite its subject matter, was a work popular enough to get OVAs). There were also a number of anecdotal reports from various people in the industry about projects getting cancelled or revised mid-stream due to fear of regulation, but details on those are harder to get (because the products weren't yet announced). But again, this was just about changing the way they were sold, not about possession.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ellessarr View Post
i think this translation is wrong, because where i read mashima said only who will not be affected:
You can check the translation yourself; the Japanese I posted was taken straight from his Twitter account. Now whether you believe he's bluffing or not is up to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ellessarr View Post
In short, Mashima has not been censored.
Of course he has not been "censored"; he is describing the steps he feels he would need to take to avoid being put at risk by the proposed law if it passes. This isn't something he's being forced to do by any means. The whole principle of the thing is the fear that, if he didn't take such steps, he and his readers are at risk of being arrested according to what the law says. And he wouldn't want to put his readers at risk, even if he were willing to take the risk himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ellessarr View Post
this almost no effect FT, and even the ovas are sold restricted to 18 years old age.
Huh? Which OVAs are restricted to adults? And even that aside, this isn't about sales restrictions, it's about restrictions on the contents. Said content would banned even if sold as adult-only.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ellessarr View Post
and this only will affect true strong ecchi mangas/animes and good amount of fanservice, pool and beachs still being possible, and swinsuits this only will be more about "bath" scenes(nude), like i said the onlys manga/animes who will really be hurt are the onlys who are heavy created around the ecchi like to love ru or sora no otoshimono.
How do you even know this? There is absolutely nothing in the proposed amendment that in any way suggests any sort of limitation or restriction on how they're allowed to apply the revised law. There's nothing in there that says "oh, you should only apply this to the really bad cases" -- it just says all such content is forbidden (read the definition posted above), and possession is subject to fines and jail time.

And besides, even if it were only to go after the works that are centred around ecchi... that still isn't really okay, if you ask me.
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Old 2013-06-05, 18:27   Link #16
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I'm not sure if there's a complete list of the entire impact, but at least here are the six that were originally proposed. Aki Sora stopped being published as a result (and this, despite its subject matter, was a work popular enough to get OVAs). There were also a number of anecdotal reports from various people in the industry about projects getting cancelled or revised mid-stream due to fear of regulation, but details on those are harder to get (because the products weren't yet announced). But again, this was just about changing the way they were sold, not about possession.

You can check the translation yourself; the Japanese I posted was taken straight from his Twitter account. Now whether you believe he's bluffing or not is up to you.

Of course he has not been "censored"; he is describing the steps he feels he would need to take to avoid being put at risk by the proposed law if it passes. This isn't something he's being forced to do by any means. The whole principle of the thing is the fear that, if he didn't take such steps, he and his readers are at risk of being arrested according to what the law says. And he wouldn't want to put his readers at risk, even if he were willing to take the risk himself.

Huh? Which OVAs are restricted to adults? And even that aside, this isn't about sales restrictions, it's about restrictions on the contents. Said content would banned even if sold as adult-only.


How do you even know this? There is absolutely nothing in the proposed amendment that in any way suggests any sort of limitation or restriction on how they're allowed to apply the revised law. There's nothing in there that says "oh, you should only apply this to the really bad cases" -- it just says all such content is forbidden (read the definition posted above), and possession is subject to fines and jail time.

And besides, even if it were only to go after the works that are centred around ecchi... that still isn't really okay, if you ask me.
the volume with the ova 4 was limited to be sold only to 18+ old the new volume 38 ova 5 also if i'm not wrong will be limited to be sold to 18+ age, but if are saying who doens't matter if was a adult or teenager who buy and "have the material" the problem then indeed is even worse lol

because the law make clear who their not saying who is proibited to draw yooungs in manga/anime but make then do "sexual things" or things who many viewers seeying as sexual, like naked baths, pantsu shots, grab boobs and things like that, just draw young characters does not be "against the law", it's more like what their are "doing".
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Old 2013-06-05, 18:28   Link #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I'm not sure if there's a complete list of the entire impact, but at least here are the six that were originally proposed. Aki Sora stopped being published as a result (and this, despite its subject matter, was a work popular enough to get OVAs).
Thank you for that. So the last set of regulations did have at least a somewhat significant impact.


Well, this new law is admittedly pretty threatening. If followed due to a chilling ripple effect, it would thoroughly sterilize anime shows that revolve primarily around teenaged characters.

So how this law shakes out is definitely something worth following, and paying attention to.
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Old 2013-06-05, 18:31   Link #18
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Originally Posted by ellessarr View Post
the volume with the ova 4 was limited to be sold only to 18+ old the new volume 38 ova 5 also if i'm not wrong will be limited to be sold to 18+ age[...]
For what it's worth, both of those OVAs (and the one with Volume 39) are not age-restricted. You can order it on Amazon in the regular store, and they'll ship it worldwide, which they won't do for adult goods.

But anyway, as was said, this law isn't about sales restrictions (which is what the city of Tokyo could do), but about actual content prohibition (which is what the national government can do).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So how this law shakes out is definitely something worth following, and paying attention to.
Yeah, I agree with what you said earlier that what we can do is limited (although there was an industry group looking for foreign donations to help with lobbying). At the very least, it's worth being informed about it, because it certainly has an impact on the creators and fans in Japan (even if the biggest immediate impact is increased tension/animosity towards a government increasingly out of touch with today's culture).
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Old 2013-06-05, 18:35   Link #19
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This would pretty much kill the doujinshi scene, the anime figurines market, the VN market, and half of the anime and manga industry.
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Old 2013-06-05, 18:44   Link #20
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This would pretty much kill the doujinshi scene, the anime figurines market, the VN market, and half of the anime and manga industry.
Yeah, I mean, we can assume pretty clearly that this isn't actually what the law's proponents intend to do right out the gate. But they're giving themselves the biggest club possible so they can "correct" the industry whenever they deem they're going out of line.

That aside, though... there is one weird thing. The entire basis of the law as written is that the person depicted is under 18. In eroge, they have that clear warning in front of every game that "all characters depicted are 18 years of age or older". So, it seems to me that this could open the door to a sort of legal defence where someone would have to prove that the character depicted can only be under 18. Of course, most people can't necessarily afford to go to court over this sort of thing, and you never know what sort of standard will be applied there either... But I suppose, if nothing else, this could conceivably result in a whole lot of anime having a whole lot of characters "magically" turn 18, and a whole lot of "high schools" turning into "academies".
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