Code Geass Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by etothex

Like the aftermath of ep 11, I too rather dislike the quick recovery he makes from being mind-raped. But I guess that's how he deals with it.

Cornelia talking about cleaning up Area 11 for the 3 lost siblings kind of seems flawed to me. Lelouch and Nunnally would have been fine, if Britannia didn't invade.

If that's the case Lelouch and Nunnally would've been fine in the first place had Marianne not been assassinated.

Plus, what difference would it have made anyways? Euphie, Cornelia and Clovis probably vouched their concerns to "dad" about Lelouch and Nunnally but in the end would he have cared anyways? I mean he literally kicked his own son out the door.

Yeah but who knows really what those kids are told, Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Lulu's father lied and said that Japan killed them as a pretext to invade.

No it wasn't actually.
Clovis, "I'm so happy Lelouch, I thought you had died during the invasion of Japan"

I said that I hate him and that he deserved it. So of course I hate him because I want to..... man....... you love suzaku too much, and try to stop using such heavy and stupid irony in your post because you are doing nothing by doing so.

Actually I don't ever recall Suzaku proclaiming himself to be the hero of justice. That's Lelouch who uses it to gain support. Suzaku just....I don't know what the hell he wants....he's aware of the hardship situation around him and he hates it as much as lelouch....I think that scene where he's walking through that field snapped something in him and that he simply can't stand watching people like that die (I mean in that context, not in a combat situation).

[etothex]

Solider: the flaw i meant was Cornelia seemed to imply that the Elevens were at fault for their deaths; cleaning up the area does nothing for Lelouch and Nunnally really.

No it wasn't actually.
Clovis, "I'm so happy Lelouch, I thought you had died during the invasion of Japan"

Let's not put complete faith in Clovis's words, it could simply have been what he was told. It seems there was little concern about Lelouch and Nunnally while they lived in Japan as hostages. (They lived in a shed for example) I doubt the other royals knew much except what was told to them.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

It appears more like she's relating to the area itself and not just the people. She's talking about it as a whole. Like as in unfinished business if you know what I mean or something, difficult to say it completely.

Let's not put complete faith in Clovis's words, it could simply have been what he was told.

........
I wouldn't be surprised if Lulu's father lied and said that Japan killed them as a pretext to invade.

The argument is that their deaths spured the invasion when in fact it did not as the kids thought they died during the invasion. Unless the whole point of the invasion was to "save lelouch and nunnally" which is just bizarre.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

...there is no proof that the war was because the Japanese killed the imperial prince and princess.

But did the Britannians need proof?

Lelouch and his sister were sent to Japan as hostages. Hostages under the pretense that Britannia wouldn't invade while some of their royals are under the custody of the Japanese government.

When Britannia invaded anyway, it's not to much of a stretch for the other royals to believe Lelouch and his sisters were executed by the Japanese as a consequence of breaking the truce. Just another way to show how cold-hearted the Emperor is, I guess.

So what I am saying, is that Britannia didn't invade because some of their royalty were killed by the Japanese. But instead because they invaded, it's assumed the royal hostages were killed as a matter of course.
(Hence Clovis and others assumed Lelouch was dead; they know invading Japan would likely get him killed.)

[Owaranai Destiny]

Interesting episode, this.

-Suzaku and Lelouch working together. If they aren't on opposing sides, I would very gladly say the two of them are just about enough to take out half an army of seventh or eighth generation Knightmares. (Okay, maybe not that much...It's just a figure of speech ) Of course, that would be just fodder for people comparing Code Geass references from Gundam Seed.

-The death of his father and who was responsible. It seems that Suzaku did indeed commit that terrible act of killing his own father. Adds a little more depth to his character (FINALLY) and we might be able to see how he's going to deal with this issue soon, especially since even Lelouch knows now.

I cannot say his reasons for doing so do not have their own rationale, but it is after all, a terrible crime in moral terms. Having Mao taunt him might actually be a good thing, right after C.C attempted to stop him by entering his mind, causing him to see his dead father again. It serves to give more depth to his character, and perhaps allow him to see the discrepancies of the method he is adopting to achieve his goals.

-Lelouch's predicament: You realise that he is just another human, despite all his capabilities. He CAN be beaten in his own game and he CAN get careless (Mao's exploitation of his weaknesses in Shirley and Nunally as well as the rumors that it's only Schneizel who could beat Lelouch fair and square in a chess match), much unlike Suzaku, who's abilities on combat would probably be second to none other than a God of War. So far the only match he has is Kallen, and it was in her Guren Nishiki. We haven't seen any of her hand to hand capabilities yet.

-Cornelia's other side: I half expected as much, but didn't think she would exhibit such behaviour especially when the series has so far been bent on showing her having more concern for her sister than other people and being brutal in her attacks on the opposers of the Britannian Empire. It has made me think that if she dies, Euphemia's character would be undergoing major changes, but let's hope it doesn't come to that so quickly, especially if one of them has been concerned about both Lelouch and Nunally as well as Clovis.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by Owaranai Destiny

-The death of his father and who was responsible. It seems that Suzaku did indeed commit that terrible act of killing his own father. Adds a little more depth to his character (FINALLY) and we might be able to see how he's going to deal with this issue soon, especially since even Lelouch knows now.

I cannot say his reasons for doing so do not have their own rationale, but it is after all, a terrible crime in moral terms. Having Mao taunt him might actually be a good thing, right after C.C attempted to stop him by entering his mind, causing him to see his dead father again. It serves to give more depth to his character, and perhaps allow him to see the discrepancies of the method he is adopting to achieve his goals.

maybe he wanted to change britannia from within inorder to repent for his sins ~ knowing that violence will only lead to more deaths ~ the way he killed his father seemed to be accidental...he didnt mean to do what he did...maybe just to teach him a lesson (but in a very stupid way) ~ suzaku could actually be surpressing his depressed feelings deep into his soul...so everytime it gets drawn out he is emotionally damaged ~ "no not this again >.<"

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

maybe he wanted to change britannia from within inorder to repent for his sins ~ knowing that violence will only lead to more deaths ~ the way he killed his father seemed to be accidental...he didnt mean to do what he did...maybe just to teach him a lesson (but in a very stupid way) ~ suzaku could actually be surpressing his depressed feelings deep into his soul...so everytime it gets drawn out he is emotionally damaged ~ "no not this again >.<"

Rushing at someone with knife in your hands, and embedding it deeply into his body for fatal wounds is not "accidental", no matter how you slice it.

Watch it again, and tell me "I didn't mean it, it was accident" o_O
That was just as "accidental" as Inejiro Asanuma assassination footage in 1960s.

[Ddadain]

BLAH!

I KNEW SUZAKU WAS BAaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAaaaaAAAAAaaaaaad!

Anyway, now Lelouche know his dirty little secret.

Spoiler:

I won't be surprised if it is later revealed that Suzaka was one of the assasins of Lulu's mother since her picture also flashed back

Besides, one thing that bothers me is that HOW THE HECK did Mao survive. Bullets rained on him, and POOF! He's alive again. I'd accept this if it was like a couple of weeks or even a month later, but the time span seems a bit too short for me. If a week or so has passed, then people should already be fussing about the total memory loss of Shirley about Lelouche.

This episode was quite amusing (of the sorts). The twist was expected *_* (I see DN), but I think the most interesting thing about this episode was the two princesses conversation. X_x Their motive for stabilizing the region is so that their fallen siblings would forgive them. Redemption. Ah! ~_~

Next episode is rather exciting! New BAD ASS frame + Sexy lady + More developments!

[Majek]

Originally Posted by aohige

Rushing at someone with knife in your hands, and embedding it deeply into his body for fatal wounds is not "accidental", no matter how you slice it.

Watch it again, and tell me "I didn't mean it, it was accident" o_O
That was just as "accidental" as Inejiro Asanuma assassination footage in 1960s.

No this is exactly like many accidents that happen in childhood. It's the same as if you've pushed someone off somewhere or nito something just because of a moment of anger. Epsecillay if you couldn't prove your point. Expect kids usualy don't witness a fileds of sluaghtered people and then learn that their father could well be reposible for much more scenes like that if he continued with his plan.

[Kalimari]

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

love this episode need more of CC she is gread my favorite anime girl

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Majek

No this is exactly like many accidents that happen in childhood. It's the same as if you've pushed someone off somewhere or nito something just because of a moment of anger. Epsecillay if you couldn't prove your point. Expect kids usualy don't witness a fileds of sluaghtered people and then learn that their father could well be reposible for much more scenes like that if he continued with his plan.

Majek.... crime of passion is not the same as accidental death.
You can TRY to say that in court, but you're not gonna win.

Was it a murder as result of a moment of anger? yes.
Was it an accidental death? no.

There's a diffrence.
You're getting two totally diffrent terms confused.

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Majek

No this is exactly like many accidents that happen in childhood. It's the same as if you've pushed someone off somewhere or nito something just because of a moment of anger. Epsecillay if you couldn't prove your point. Expect kids usualy don't witness a fileds of sluaghtered people and then learn that their father could well be reposible for much more scenes like that if he continued with his plan.

Lol. So see many children stab their fathers in your country? I think there's a diff. between shoving someone in anger as a child AND rushing towards someone with a knife and sticking it in them. But hey, that's just my twisted morality speaking.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

If I read episode 1 correctly, the conflict was created by Japan so Britannia simply retaliated.

How was the conflict created by Japan? I thought it was because Japan was discovered to be a major source of sakuradite so the Brits invaded it. Probably under the pretext that it had WMDs or something.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Majek

No this is exactly like many accidents that happen in childhood. It's the same as if you've pushed someone off somewhere or nito something just because of a moment of anger. Epsecillay if you couldn't prove your point. Expect kids usualy don't witness a fileds of sluaghtered people and then learn that their father could well be reposible for much more scenes like that if he continued with his plan.

Well, Suzaku said "I had no choice!".

Does that sound like an accident to you? He decided to kill his father, childish mentality or not. Suzaku himself certainly doesn't consider it an accident.

Oh, and if being responsible for a field of slaughtered people is worth a knifing in Suzaku's mind, why the hell is he working for Cornelia?

There is no justification for what Suzaku did, as it was a childish act performed with no idea of consequences or effect. But what made it despicable is how Suzaku still attempt to justify it anyway in the present day rather than admitting "Yeah, I messed up and killed my father for nothing."

He did what he once did as an uninformed child; this I could forgive.
But Suzaku is now old enough to join the army. He is now old enough to take lives of his own. For this older Suzaku to still trying to convince himself that his past immature actions to be rightous is just not good enough.

[ashlay]

^still, it makes things interesting if Suzaku isn't fighting for Brittannia because he believes in "justice", but because he's so damaged he'll do anything to avoid taking responsibility for his mistakes.

[Majek]

How do i get myself stuck in these "discussions" and with them of all people. Always them. :/

You're right aohige, but to me in this case it' still more an accident because i don't see that malicious intent behind the stabbing that would make me label it as murder. i know the definition of murder but not ever killing is murder for me.

evil i said push into or off somewhere, like pushing someone into a window that breaks and cuts so badly that it results in death. But that doesn't matter as i'm not pushing the thought further so i won't question your twisted morality.

adn VDV I don't take that "I had no choice" as the "i had no choice but to kill him", not yet , until the whole event is seen. And NO you won't make me discuss Suzaku as he is now.

:/ Bah i'll just stick more or less to reading from now on. Have fun.

[KoroshiyaX]

This would likely be 2nd degree murder if this was taking place in real life. It was not pre-meditated, but it is STILL murder nevertheless. He killed him since he thought that would be the only way to end the conflict. Suzaku is a person that tends to jump the gun I guess.

This is become more interesting though. Based on this ep's revelations, we could conclude that it wasn't that Prime Minister Kururugi betrayed the Japanese and surrendered to Britannia, but it was Suzaku's actions in murdering his dad that lead to the fall of Japan Although one could argue they would have lost anyway...

I think the expression "Better to die on your feet than live on your knees" would fit here, with Suzaku representing the latter.

[quina]

If his lawyer can prove that Susaku is forced to kill his father by the fact that he has no choice and is forced to kill his dad if he wants to save others people life, he won't be found guilty of 2nd degree murder.. (deadly force are permitted in this case after all..)

well of course I do not know how law in japan work though. They do not have jury there I think, they only do bench trail and some laws are different too.

[lade]

Be that as it may, Suzaku's cowardice to face his actions, yet present himself in the guise of the moral champion is probably what I find the most repulsive about him, code geass has a habit of making me reconsider my conceptions of the characters. I can watch lelouch kill his brother, perform actions that rival the worst a villain like naraku cna pull of but when I measure him against the actions and personalities of the other characters I actually find myself feeling and thinking to myself , he's the best of a bad lot but at least he is honest.

Yes, Suzaku killed his father , giving a choice in a war that near apocalyptical, would i not walk that path, live on my knees and than on my feet, no hero I and I'm sure that is the path many on this board would choose if they had to make that choice. So in my own way, I can say what suzaku did was not right but it was for the best, japan survived albeit in a bad shape and beholden to britannia but most importantly they survived.


Unlike the Melians of ancient times who chose an honourable death( ie the kind of war his father chose, a fight to the finish ) and end to their civilization than surrendering and allying with the athenians who had offered them the option of surrender to devastation.Had they surrendered they would have taken what they could out of a bad deal , and then dumped the athenians when they later lost to sparta, had they chosen to bid their time to recover rebuild and gain in power.suzaku may not have realizaed it but he gave his people that chance albeit in the from of lelouch and the black knights, they have lived to fight another day on far better terms than any they had before that time, the only way he can atone for his actions even justify them somewhat is to aid lelouch defeat brittania, he killed his father to ensure japan survived albeit losing their sovereignty and liberty but if he can gain it back, albeit a small penance for his sins, itis something

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Majek

evil i said push into or off somewhere, like pushing someone into a window that breaks and cuts so badly that it results in death. But that doesn't matter as i'm not pushing the thought further so i won't question your twisted morality.

Hmm, well, I suppose it depends. If a child A pushed another child B and B fell over a cliff that A didn't notice was there, I suppose that could be manslaughter. But if A thought about making B fall off that cliff, then I'd suppose that'd be murder.

Originally Posted by quina

If his lawyer can prove that Susaku is forced to kill his father by the fact that he has no choice and is forced to kill his dad if he wants to save others people life, he won't be found guilty of 2nd degree murder.. (deadly force are permitted in this case after all..)

I don't think this will even cut it as a defense in a court of law. -_- I mean, first they would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a) there was no other choice and b)it was because lifes were directly in danger. Otherwise some random terrorist could kill the american president because a) he had no choice and b) other peoples life were indirectly in danger every single time the president gave the go ahead to invade someone.

Originally Posted by lade

the only way he can atone for his actions even justify them somewhat is to aid lelouch defeat brittania, he killed his father to ensure japan survived albeit losing their sovereignty and liberty but if he can gain it back, albeit a small penance for his sins, itis something

In all honesty, I want to see Suzaku continue on being a soldier for the brits. He's gone so far down his path that I feel any sudden turn about would be a let down and a waste of char. development for him. Same if Lelouch suddenly decided to embrace world peace.

[Sirmackerel]

We haven't seen any of her hand to hand capabilities yet.

Well, we did see Karen slice a bee into three pieces with a swipe of her hand...