Tate no Yuusha/Shield Hero - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll

[blakstealth]

waited 19 weeks for this. And yet, I feel the impact of knowing the truth wasn't enough. The three heroes now all bickered with each other about naofumi being framed yet not taking responsibility for their actions that have snowballed this misunderstanding to what it is now. And motoyasu has the gall to do a 180 and act like he's on the right side. this dude was gonna kill naofumi, and now acts like nothing happened. It doesn't help that all the characters still act like it's supposed to be humorous and ultimately undermine what is supposed to be a serious situation. fuck all these guys, man.

After this whole battle is over, let's see how it plays out. This episode was a start in the right direction, but it's not enough for me for naofumi to be vindicated and everyone getting their just desserts.

[Schpittfeuer]

Firo roasting the pedo spearhead- priceless

[Magewolf]

This episode was the perfect distillation of almost everything I dislike about the show. You have an entire universe designed to make a guy(Naofumi) look good regardless of how nonsensical it has to be to do it and he is still such a sanctimonious hypocritical whiny little git that I want to punch him in the face.

[Schpittfeuer]

Originally Posted by Magewolf

This episode was the perfect distillation of almost everything I dislike about the show. You have an entire universe designed to make a guy(Naofumi) look good regardless of how nonsensical it has to be to do it and he is still such a sanctimonious hypocritical whiny little git that I want to punch him in the face.

Motoyasu is standing next and it's naofumi that you want to punch?


Besides, I'd assume you would be salty and distrustful too if the first thing after getting pulled into unknown world was a false rape accusation and then day after day of constant bullying from the authorities and your co-heroes

[Kanon]

Last week, the Pope already pointed out the exact same things about the other three heroes that Naofumi did this week. It would have flowed better if he had done that when all of them were here with Naofumi taking that opportunity to give his input.

And Ren is really getting the short end of the stick here. He's lumped in with the others when he was already pretty apologetic when Naofumi told him about the mess he left behind with the dragon a few episodes ago.

[BWTraveller]

I agree this should have had more action. The one problem I've had with this series is the way it frequently hold back on the action. At least this time they had an excuse with the Pope needing several minutes to charge his attacks and his defenses being strong enough to make assault difficult. Beats the first wave when they even had points with long pauses in the middle of exclamations while zombies continued to advance.

[Kinematics]

Originally Posted by Schpittfeuer

Motoyasu is standing next [to him,] and it's Naofumi that you want to punch?

Sadly enough, yes. And that probably says all that needs to be said about this episode.

In fact, Motoyasu actually came off fairly respectably this episode. In the Wave where Glass showed up, he didn't want to fight together despite the gravity of the situation. Now the situation is reversed, where Motoyasu is calling for people to work together and Naofumi is the one who's refusing to cooperate, despite much stronger background reasons to do so, and even trying to put aside his grievances just last episode.

[Twi]

What I want to bring to attention here is Naofumi's reluctance to help out and instead plan things out with his party since he's confident they can survive without the other three heroes help...

The issue here is that it's all bull because he knows that if any of them die, Chocobo Queen is going to kill all the remaining heroes. He knows this, yet he decides he's just going to talk crap and get them fighting amongst themselves...

Right in front of the enemy who is going to kill them all, giving them a chance to power up. They paused the action just so that he could lecture them. I get he might not like the thought of working with them, but when the enemy is holding a tactical nuke to their face the timing is off. The Pope even calls them out on this. Rightfully so.

Worse, Naofumi's been spewing a load of hot air when you consider his lecture about how his party could match Motoyatsu's last episode was because they trained harder. Last I checked, he's still underleveled and his party literally just copied a technique they stole from Motoyatsu's. One that Spear's party worked towards, only for the girls on Naofumi's party to get it in one-shot in order to one up his.

He didn't train to get that.

This is the exact moment in the manga, which they toned down to still come out looking bad, that I saw that huge flaw that Naofumi has to be right even if it doesn't make sense. Ren leaving that dragon alone? The people had time to get rid of it and were profiting off it. That's on them, there wasn't a clean-up request. Spear at least has the excuse of being too stupid to live but too strong to die, but he can't just criticize them for being treated better than him and call them lazy or not taking it seriously. Especially not when it doesn't make sense, given that them working together wouldn't have gotten the Soul Eater out faster since none of them would know to target the shadow.

[Magewolf]

Originally Posted by Schpittfeuer

Motoyasu is standing next and it's naofumi that you want to punch?


Besides, I'd assume you would be salty and distrustful too if the first thing after getting pulled into unknown world was a false rape accusation and then day after day of constant bullying from the authorities and your co-heroes

Motoyasu is an idiot that has an entire universe designed(badly) around making him look awful. How can you hate someone for that?

The only way Naofumi's little "It's not a game,guys!" speech could have been better is if he had had his status screen up as he looked at them while standing beside his slave daughter who had gained 10 odd years of physical and mental age in a month and the chicken girl he hatched from an egg.

[Twi]

Don't forget the true princess who's following him. If that isn't a freaking videogame trope, I don't know what is.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Kinematics

Sadly enough, yes. And that probably says all that needs to be said about this episode.

In fact, Motoyasu actually came off fairly respectably this episode. In the Wave where Glass showed up, he didn't want to fight together despite the gravity of the situation. Now the situation is reversed, where Motoyasu is calling for people to work together and Naofumi is the one who's refusing to cooperate, despite much stronger background reasons to do so, and even trying to put aside his grievances just last episode.

How did he come across as the slightest bit respectable? He jumps at the possibility of a boss fight and poses like he always does, runs up and declares they'll all fight together as if all the abuse and hate and persecution had never happened, and refused to accept responsibility for the death and pain and suffering he'd caused to so many people. He just continues to act like he always does, only he decides that right now Naofumi's apparently a teammate. He's still the same bastard who thinks that he can just do whatever he wants and he's bound to be right because he's obviously the hero, and any pain he'd previously caused should not matter at all. Yes, Naofumi has plenty of reason to try and get along, but that doesn't mean he needs to bow down and do whatever the idiots say. In order to work together properly he needs them to recognize the truth and stop thinking of only themselves. Otherwise they'll claim to be three or four great heroes fighting side by side while constantly interfering with and bickering with one another.

Also, as for claims that it's bull for him to just make plans with his party because Fitoria will kill everyone if even one of them dies, there's one fatal flaw in that logic: it assumes that he plans to work with his party only and PROTECT his party only. So far he's been protecting all of them even as he makes it clear he doesn't yet trust them and feels he'd fight better with just his direct party. Fitoria won't kill him because he didn't fight this one battle side by side with them, if they all survive and he tries to get them on the same page afterward. Besides, he's not trying to get them fighting amongst themselves, he's trying to get them to learn enough humility to be able to fight together properly.

And yes, Naofumi and his party have been training hard. Just the fact that at significantly lower levels and without a class up they're still able to fight on par with or better than Motoyasu's party shows that they're incredibly strong despite having not been allowed to level as much. And while they didn't train to use the combo technique, it could be said to be a result of their efforts that they're able to pull it off the moment they see it.

And as for the stuff about "it's not a game" being absurd just because the world has a ton of game tropes, though a slave daughter and rapid growth are things I've never seen in a game: fact is that while the world has game elements, it's also clearly not a game. At least not the sort of self-serving game that the others played where their actions weren't allowed to have negative consequences. People can die here; non-player characters are real people capable of anything from saintly altruism to the cruelest betrayal; actions have consequences beyond a simple "job complete" mark; harvesting all of a creature the size of a whale before it decays is a monumental task. At the very least it's not the games they played, and if they'd ever taken the time to think that maybe the others were telling the truth and knew what they were talking about they'd realize this.

[AC-Phoenix]

After having actually seen the episode I must say that a lot of it was unneeded airtime. Unless they plan on skipping an entire arc, or even worse rushing through the rest of the content they will need another season with at least 12 episodes to finish the story, 6 of which to get to where I stopped reading the manga.


Season 2 incoming, and with it sadly the wait.

[Twi]

It's a lot easier to coordinate when you make plans together. You know, DPS and Tank discussing things before the match. Not, Tank and Healer talk about how they're going to watch each others backs while your other strongest assets are off in a corner, because like it or not they are obstinantly stronger than his own party.

To put it bluntly, none of what happened to him does matter at the moment. The biggest issue here is that the guy trying to kill all of them is getting ready to nuke them to oblivion and the time he spent running his mouth off to lecture them could have been spent coordinating an assault. When you can't prioritize the immediate threat over the less important crap, you pretty much are asking for the beating that's coming as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, he did protect them at the end, but only after he went on a big speech about how he was sick of cleaning up their messes, when he actually already covered that twice (he literally told those two the issues they caused the last time he saw them before the split) when they have bigger issues (aka the Pope). Fitioria would kill him if even one of the heroes died in this battle because of the bickering, and I would have said he had it coming because he couldn't put off his need to be right.

I wouldn't give him as much flak (only some, because him calling them as bad as the pope was just bull) if they'd postponed it or at least not retread the same ground as before, especially when they could have ended this fight much earlier and gotten to clearing everything up in the aftermath.

[ShadowSamurai365]

Originally Posted by Twi

It's a lot easier to coordinate when you make plans together. You know, DPS and Tank discussing things before the match. Not, Tank and Healer talk about how they're going to watch each others backs while your other strongest assets are off in a corner.

To put it bluntly, none of what happened to him does matter at the moment. The biggest issue here is that the guy trying to kill all of them is getting ready to nuke them to oblivion and the time he spent running his mouth off to lecture them could have been spent coordinating an assault. When you can't prioritize the immediate threat over the less important crap, you pretty much are asking for the beating that's coming as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, did protect them at the end, but only after he went on a big speech about how he was sick of cleaning up their messes, when he actually already covered that twice (he literally told those two the issues they caused the last time he saw them before the split) when they have bigger issues (aka the Pope). Fitioria would kill him if even one of the heroes died in this battle because of the bickering, and I would have said he had it coming because he couldn't put off his need to be right.

Have you considered the possibility that even if he does that, that (after the battle with the Pope is over) the other 3 Heroes would still not trust him (or just the possibility that they'll quickly turn on him as soon as the battle is over)?

[Twi]

Because it doesn't matter. They don't need trust. They need to work together, because unlike them he knows that if one of them dies, they are all going to follow.

If Naofumi's priority is survival and he's pragmatic about it, which he is given everything he's done just to get to this point, then it's clear what needs to be done. Save the unrelated matters to after the fight with the guy who has openly declared he's going to kill you all and made several near-successful attempts.

[ShadowSamurai365]

So in other words, only care about things in the short term and forget about the long term. Okay, then....

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Twi

Because it doesn't matter. They don't need trust. They need to work together, because unlike them he knows that if one of them dies, they are all going to follow.

If Naofumi's priority is survival and he's pragmatic about it, which he is given everything he's done just to get to this point, then it's clear what needs to be done. Save the unrelated matters to after the fight with the guy who has openly declared he's going to kill you all and made several near-successful attempts.

Problem is he's seen what it's like when they try to "work together" in their current mindsets, mindsets that remained unchanged after his previous lectures. Kissing their butts and letting them think that it's all water under the bridge and then "teaming up" with them would be disastrous if it turned out like it did last time, with each of them thinking of themselves as the leader and the others as backup, pretending to "work together" when really it's just three jerks playing main hero and getting mad when the others get in their way while he tries to protect them and hope that the cumulative damage will do the trick.

Thing is, from what's been shown before, they're unlikely to listen to one another past what's convenient and fits their own plans. If one of them spots a threat or an opening and tells the others to follow his instructions do you really think the others would just say "roger"? I'm sorry but I find that very doubtful.

True, he may have chosen a different way to go about it and I don't deny he's far from the perfect hero, but as I said before I don't think this story's about making him look good but rather showing how bad other "heroes" really are. Sort of like how Mitsurugi Kyouya from KonoSuba wasn't there to make Kazuma look like a good guy (being a jerk's part of his charm), but just to show how really pathetic those OP heroes who have their powers handed to them really are, emphasizing this fact by having his pretty head smashed by a bastard who's too weak for words. True, showing how pathetic those types are may elevate his type in some eyes, but that doesn't mean that was the purpose.

[Twi]

^ Kissing their butts was never in the cards. He should have just worked with them and then chewed them out later when there was less of a chance of the enemy doing something that would bite them in the rear currently. Priorities is the crux of the issue here.

And you're giving the other heroes too little credit when it comes to taking cues. Remember, when Ren saw Naofumi unveil the first Soul Eater he jumped right onto the second one without being prompted. The entire reason that Ren and Itsuki nearly got killed was because they didn't trust the Church after it was made blatantly clear that they were untrustworthy and they were the ones who called Myne out both times she screwed up in front of them, both in the duel and when she tried to kill her sister.

They might not notice something right off the bat, but if it gets pointed out they'll actually act on it.

Originally Posted by ShadowSamurai365

So in other words, only care about things in the short term and forget about the long term. Okay, then....

Shadow, get your point out if you want to rather than being snide. I'm sure not holding my tongue here.

They aren't going to get along. They've got too many differing personalities and approaches, and Naofumi hates them for believing the lie they were told even though they didn't know better. He's been clear since day one he just wants to survive and go home, and you'd be naive to think trust is something that would be given out when the whole reason Raph still wears a slave seal is because he won't fully trust women without it.

What I'm saying is that people don't have to like one another to work together and come up with a plan. They've got a common, simple goal here: Kill the guy trying to kill them.

That means shelving the anger issues and lectures until after the pope is dead.

[ShadowSamurai365]

Originally Posted by Twi

^ Kissing their butts was never in the cards. He should have just worked with them and then chewed them out later when there was less of a chance of the enemy doing something that would bite them in the rear currently. Priorities is the crux of the issue here.

And you're giving the other heroes too little credit when it comes to taking cues. Remember, when Ren saw Naofumi unveil the first Soul Eater he jumped right onto the second one without being prompted. The entire reason that Ren and Itsuki nearly got killed was because they didn't trust the Church after it was made blatantly clear that they were untrustworthy and they were the ones who called Myne out both times she screwed up in front of them, both in the duel and when she tried to kill her sister.

They might not notice something right off the bat, but if it gets pointed out they'll actually act on it.




Shadow, get your point out if you want to rather than being snide. I'm sure not holding my tongue here.

They aren't going to get along. They've got too many differing personalities and approaches, and Naofumi hates them for believing the lie they were told even though they didn't know better. He's been clear since day one he just wants to survive and go home, and you'd be naive to think trust is something that would be given out when the whole reason Raph still wears a slave seal is because he won't fully trust women without it.

What I'm saying is that people don't have to like one another to work together and come up with a plan. They've got a common, simple goal here: Kill the guy trying to kill them.

That means shelving the anger issues and lectures until after the pope is dead.

On what basis do you have that the other 3 heroes are going to act rationale (or wise up) on either during or after the battle? Sure, their lives are on the line, and can be killed if they're not careful, so it's fair to assume the other heroes will wise up and work together to make it out alive. However, there are also times that even if ones' life is in danger (or continues to be proven wrong), one would still continue their present behavior despite it not helping (and it doesn't help their case that they still kept that attitude even though they were in a life or death battle with the Soul Eater and/or Glass). So even if they'll get killed if they don't cooperate, are you sure that the other heroes are even rationale enough to comprehend that the situation they're in to drop their attitudes long enough to listen to each other (along with even if they do make it out, on what grounds do you have that the other heroes are going to even listen to the lectures that Naofumi is going to give them after the battle? What's stopping them from ignoring him again?

[Frontier]

It actually makes a lot of sense that the kingdom would try and develop a means of fighting back against the Wave without needing to summon all four Heroes even if the reason why it's so impractical (and hazardous) are made pretty clear in this episode. I mean, most of those church people would probably have been slaughtered during the Wave before they could actually do any good .

I love how Filo keeps burning Spear Hero. That's always enjoyable .

I also loved them pointing out how dumb Malty is for not knowing something pretty much anyone in the royal family is expected to know .

So the Queen saved Ren, Itsuki, and their parties? Makes me wonder just how much control she's been exerting on the plot all this time despite being "away" and what she's really like .

I admit, I did get a good laugh at how the Heroes seem to be finally coming together and then they pan to Naofumi huddled together with his actual team .

I guess it stands to be said that there were probably better times for Naofumi to finally unload all his grievances and anger at the other Heroes for how they treated him, especially when his goal should be working together with them moving forward. I think Naofumi being tired of their @#$% is perfectly fine and believable and I can understand not wanting to get let them off scott free (even if they gave him an out with the "framed" thing), but it seemed a tad counter-productive to what they should be accomplishing now .

Maybe they needed that humbling to make them re-assess themselves and become the kind of Heroes who that world deserves and not the kind who garner the distrust and lack of faith that leads to the Church doing what it's currently doing. I mean, Ren already seems to be on that path so I don't think he needed to get read the riot act again like Motoyasu and Itsuki did. He was actually agreeing with Naofumi .

Naofumi says he's only agreeing to work with them for this battle, but hopefully the other Heroes teaming-up here and getting faced with all their mistakes again will lead to them finally letting the past go and deciding to be better Heroes moving forward. Maybe then Naofumi can let go of his grudges for good and start to genuinely agree to work with them once the Waves start again. I'm not expecting the four Heroes to ever be close buddy-buddies but maybe they can become companions worthy of the title of "Four Cardinal Heroes" .