The state of anime, are we doomed?

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

... Nijuu Mensou no Musume for a solid adventure yarn...

This. Do this. Do it now. Seriously, this show doesn't get enough love.

[Boduar]

Last 2-3 seasons have been pretty bland in the action department although there were some good non-action ones (bakemonogatari etc). Im just waiting for a series to pop up again that makes me anticipate when the subs or even raws are going to come out like TTGL or code geass. Since those 2 I have not really been hooked on a must see series but im sure they will pop up again eventually.

Edit: Now that i think about it Phantom Requiem a season or 2 back had me hooked.

[Dextro]

Like one person said in the thread for the 2009 Choice Awards (sorry, don't remember exactly who) the bubble of anime is bursting. Moe, echii and all those otuku specific stuff has gotten so "normal" that people are getting tired of them and the bad world economy probably aggravated the problem by forcing companies to play it safe and release stuff they knew should work. But this isn't an issue, it's like roriconfan said: it's cyclical, the anime industry has gone through this quite some times already and it just means that the people behind our beloved shows are adapting to a changing audience.

Also I think we need to understand that it's perfectly normal to see people getting scared over 2009's season in particular, just look back at what we through 2007 up to 2009:

• 2007
  • Nodame Cantabile
  • Gurren Lagann
  • Nana
  • Death Note
  • Code Geass
  • Kanon (2006)
  • Lucky Star
  • Claymore
  • Darker than Black
  • Baccano!
  • Ef - a Tale of Memories
  • School Days
• 2008
  • Clannad
  • Aria the Origination
  • Code Geass R2
  • Spice and Wolf
  • Ef - a Tale of Melodies
  • Mobile Suit Gundam 00
  • Macross F
• 2009
  • Clannad After Story
  • Higashi no Eden
  • Bakemonogatari
  • Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Season 2
  • K-On!
  • Skip Beat!

I know I missed a lot of stuff but look at that 2007 in particular. It was just impossible to expect the industry to keep that momentum every year, it was an outstanding year and 2008, even if a weaker, still had some very nice shows that managed to lure even more people to the thought that we were in a golden age of anime. We're not, we just had one amazing year and now it's coming back to bite us, we could say that we are in withdrawal since we're still adjusting to life after a that major 2007 boom.

So in conclusion: anime isn't dying, it's just stabilizing after a couple of amazing years and possibly beginning a change to a different series of clichés that'll mark the next decade like moe will probably be remembered as marking the current one.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Look, I am almost hitting the next age range. I have gone through the gumpy old man period until I grew tired of it and seen Monster then Gungrave, realizing that anime only goes through cycles of rise and decline of quality just like the cinema industry.

I can't say I have noticed these cycles, good and bad shows have been made in every timeframe. Genres have risen and fallen over time, but has average quality changed at all? I have watched anime for almost three decades now and I can't say any period was any better or worse then the next.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

1) Poster that usually doesn't post here comes on, and makes some points against modern anime, and what ails it in his or her opinion. Now, these posts aren't perfect; they're not flawless masterpieces; they have some points that may very well be wrong... but there's generally some truth to it, if we anime fans are honest with ourselves, imo. [...]

2) Poster basically gets slammed in numerous different responses. Nobody seems to take the time to seriously consider his or her complaints.

3) Rinse and repeat...

This has happened enough in the past year, that I really think it's time to stop and think... you know, if a fair number of different people are starting threads, or making posts, like this, maybe there's some truth to it? Maybe there really is something wrong about modern anime? Room for improvement, at least?

I agree here. The OP states that he doesn't think that there is a quality issue but that he doesn't enjoy the 'otaku'-conventions in modern anime. It's a bit unfortunate that he attributes his feelings to the anime audience as a whole and get's hammered for that.

Posts like these show that there is a part of the fanbase that, for good or bad reasons, feels that the focus of anime is moving in a direction they do not enjoy.

Originally Posted by Vexx

The really sad bit is that it takes "grumpy old men" to point out that these "grumpy young men" aren't really looking at the big picture but only the part they are comfortable in or have experienced themselves. Minor research would solve much...

Good point, but do people need to appreciate the big picture? Anime can be in decline for individuals if the the part they are comfortable in or have experienced themselves is no longer in the spotlight. I've spend enough time on forums like Macross World and MAHQ.net to realise that not all fans apreciate the current offering of anime in equal measure. Plenty of those fans, I feel, are well spoken, thought full individuals and know what anime is around. Just because we can find enough interesting material in what is being produced doesn't mean everyone can.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Westlo

Baccano! has 579 posts for 13 episodes, 3 ovas and a licensed release in the western world. It also had some of the best word of mouth an anime series could possibly get.

Dhurarara!! from the same light novel author and anime team as Baccano! has 567 posts after 3 episodes.
.

Izaya fans are a talkative bunch.

Anime cycles. Sure I have less to be excited about this season but I don't think its doomed.

[Ash Falls Town]

Originally Posted by Westlo

This was the second time in a space of a week I've been told that Baccano! was mainstream. As someone who followed Baccano every week while it aired, the thought of it being mainstream just makes me chuckle.

Baccano! has 579 posts for 13 episodes, 3 ovas and a licensed release in the western world. It also had some of the best word of mouth an anime series could possibly get.

Dhurarara!! from the same light novel author and anime team as Baccano! has 567 posts after 3 episodes.

Baccano got completely ignored and lost in the shuffle with Lucky Star, Lagann & Claymore (the most popular of the season) still running into its season as well as numerous other, more popular shows. To call Baccano! mainstream is absurd. It wasn't even a third tier series when it came to popularity.

Dhurarara is only popular because Baccano! was mainstream. Far less people would be watching Dhurarara if Baccano was less popular.

Going by MAL user rankings we see that Baccano is at number 78.
This is where it is in comparison to other 2007 anime. All 2007 anime above it are on it.

Spoiler for List:

0009 Naruto: Shippuuden
0013 Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann
0015 Lucky Star
0020 Clannad
0024 Darker than Black
0025 Claymore
0059 Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei
0065 School Days
0066 Higurashi no Naku Koro ni Kai
0073 Shakugan no Shana II
0077 Devil May Cry
0078 Baccano!
0172 Shugo Chara!
0187 Myself;Yourself
0272 Romeo x Juliet
0384 Rental Magica
0497 Night Wizard
0528 Majin Tantei Nougami Neuro
0659 Kamichama Karin
0780 Nanatsuiro Drops
1205 Kono Aozora ni Yakusoku wo
1605 Suteki Tantei Labyrinth
2036 Angelique ~ Kagayaki no Ashita ~

Shows in italics are one I haven't seen. Also from this it can be obviously deduced that high thread post count doesn't necessarily equal high watch rate. Notice where Myself;Yourself is on the list.

Here's the full list.
http://myanimelist.net/topanime.php?type=bypopularity

Edit: Baccano! DVD sales are here
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...92#post1348992
(Thanks to user eggplant)
Sales averaged around 3300.
Of course Japanese DVD sales has little to do with popularity in English speaking fandom.

[Triple_R]

My own measure for anime popularity would be DVD/Blu-Ray sales.

How well did Baccano! sell on DVDs?

I honestly don't know, but that sales figure (whatever it is) would be a key one, imo.

[npcomplete]

Triple_R: If your sisters are young adults (i.e. high school teens), then personally I don't really see much of a problem with some of the material cited here. But that's just my opinion, seeing how most young adult novels, which I myself read, contain much more risque material. In addition, the Sailor Moon episodes here (US and CN) contain numerous and continuous censoring edits to address the nudity, etc. Anyways, if you really want something mahou shoujo then you should go for: the Pretty Cure franchise, the latest being Fresh Pretty Cure, Nanoha series, or even better: Tweeny Witches 1,2 (Mahou Shoujo Tai Arusu/Alice)

As a side note, interestingly as Ansalem mentioned about one Sailor Moon changes made here "making two of the Sailors 'cousins' so that their implied lesbian relationship seemed sororal.", something similar was done with the dub script in the original Pretty Cure, where "love letter" was changed to "fan letter", thereby removing any implied romance.

Originally Posted by Dextro

Like one person said in the thread for the 2009 Choice Awards (sorry, don't remember exactly who) the bubble of anime is bursting. Moe, echii and all those otuku specific stuff has gotten so "normal" that people are getting tired of them and the bad world economy probably aggravated the problem by forcing companies to play it safe and release stuff they knew should work. But this isn't an issue, it's like roriconfan said: it's cyclical, the anime industry has gone through this quite some times already and it just means that the people behind our beloved shows are adapting to a changing audience.

Also I think we need to understand that it's perfectly normal to see people getting scared over 2009's season in particular, just look back at what we through 2007 up to 2009:

Spoiler:

• 2007
  • Nodame Cantabile
  • Gurren Lagann
  • Nana
  • Death Note
  • Code Geass
  • Kanon (2006)
  • Lucky Star
  • Claymore
  • Darker than Black
  • Baccano!
  • Ef - a Tale of Memories
  • School Days
• 2008
  • Clannad
  • Aria the Origination
  • Code Geass R2
  • Spice and Wolf
  • Ef - a Tale of Melodies
  • Mobile Suit Gundam 00
  • Macross F
• 2009
  • Clannad After Story
  • Higashi no Eden
  • Bakemonogatari
  • Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Season 2
  • K-On!
  • Skip Beat!

I know I missed a lot of stuff but look at that 2007 in particular. It was just impossible to expect the industry to keep that momentum every year, it was an outstanding year and 2008, even if a weaker, still had some very nice shows that managed to lure even more people to the thought that we were in a golden age of anime. We're not, we just had one amazing year and now it's coming back to bite us, we could say that we are in withdrawal since we're still adjusting to life after a that major 2007 boom.

So in conclusion: anime isn't dying, it's just stabilizing after a couple of amazing years and possibly beginning a change to a different series of clichés that'll mark the next decade like moe will probably be remembered as marking the current one.

You missed a HECK of a lot in 2009 though... things that show that what was there before is still here now. It's just that there's also more of other stuff people--the grumpy young men here--don't like. See previous post

Originally Posted by Vexx

The really sad bit is that it takes "grumpy old men" to point out that these "grumpy young men" aren't really looking at the big picture but only the part they are comfortable in or have experienced themselves. Minor research would solve much...

I've done a bit for them in my previous post

Originally Posted by Bri

Good point, but do people need to appreciate the big picture? Anime can be in decline for individuals if the the part they are comfortable in or have experienced themselves is no longer in the spotlight. I've spend enough time on forums like Macross World and MAHQ.net to realise that not all fans apreciate the current offering of anime in equal measure. Plenty of those fans, I feel, are well spoken, thought full individuals and know what anime is around. Just because we can find enough interesting material in what is being produced doesn't mean everyone can.

I certainly think so if you want to make any proclamations about anime as a whole. Some individuals may be lamenting about the popularity of titles they don't like but that's certainly not all what the current offering of anime consists of. And you've pretty much addressed it yourself:

Originally Posted by Bri

I can't say I have noticed these cycles, good and bad shows have been made in every timeframe. Genres have risen and fallen over time, but has average quality changed at all? I have watched anime for almost three decades now and I can't say any period was any better or worse then the next.

It's like what animeboy12 mentioned: it's about being dissatisfied about the presence of 'other' stuff that's out there, because if you do look at the bigger picture, I see no decline of non-fanservice-y/non-otaku-y titles at all. The problem is that people think there is are huge swings that the entire industry takes, where one slice of the "anime pie" becomes bigger at the expense of the other, when the reality is that the entire anime pie has gotten bigger so there's more room for everybody.

When you look at what sells, for figures and artbooks, yes moe and bishoujo are hot sellers, which definitely helps fuel those genres. BUT when you look at DVD and BD sales, ironically, what people lament about just doesn't pan out. Again, see my previous post

[Ansalem]

Originally Posted by Ash Falls Town

Dhurarara is only popular because Baccano! was mainstream. Far less people would be watching Dhurarara if Baccano was less popular.

Going by MAL user rankings we see that Baccano is at number 78.
This is where it is in comparison to other 2007 anime. All 2007 anime above it are on it.

Shows in italics are one I haven't seen. Also from this it can be obviously deduced that high thread post count doesn't necessarily equal high watch rate. Notice where Myself;Yourself is on the list.

Here's the full list.
http://myanimelist.net/topanime.php?type=bypopularity

Well, one thing to keep in mind that just because something has been watched by a lot of people now doesn't necessarily mean that it was watched by a lot of people when it aired. The numbers from MAL during that season would tell you much more than current numbers, since shows sometimes gain popularity after they finished rather than during their airing.

The best example I can think of is the American TV show Firefly. When it was on the air, it had horrible ratings and was canceled mid-season with only 14 episodes produced and 11 aired. After its DVD release, it got a massive underground following, enough for it to get a big budget theatrical release. It's currently #1 in sales on Amazon.com for Fantasy and Sci-Fi TV, and in the top 500 for Movies and TV.

The post count on AnimeSuki is also more reflective of the popularity when the show aired, because afterward discussion tends to be very light. A new person who's watched a show will come and post their impressions and a person may comment, but that as far as discussion goes, there is relatively little.

[Triple_R]

npcomplete... You yourself have indicated on this board, many times, that you have very broad tastes.

That's fine.

But that also means that where you're likely to see mountains upon mountains of wonderful animes (due to sheer quantity, in part)... that isn't the same for all of us.


You act like the fact that there were 215 anime in 2009 means that there has to be something for everyone.

Well, if one has very broad tastes, sure, that's definitely true.

But those Macross World posters that Bri was referring to are probably looking for something very specific that's a lot like, well, a particular Macross anime... or a lot like a different particular mecha series that they really liked. And for people with narrower tastes than yourself, even slight deviations can make a world of difference.


It is genuinely possible for there to be certain types of shows that are missed out of in 215 anime.

In fact, that idea reminds me of the old saying "Hundreds of TV stations, and there's nothing on worth watching".

I've heard that quite often from satellite TV owners.


Also, you and some others seem to think that equal weight should be given to each and every anime, no matter how prominent or obscure it is.


I'm sorry... it just doesn't work that way.

Look, people generally like to talk about the shows they watch with other people. That's certainly true of message board posters like us.

So, when people talk about anime, of course they're going to focus on the shows that are the most talked about, for good or for ill.


Your argument, to me, would be a lot like Roger Ebert arguing that some good obscure art films makes up for a lot of people being displeased with the Summer Blockbuster movies. Yes, Ebert likes those sorts of art films, but if the Summer Blockbusters were unusually subpar, in his view, for the year, he's not going to say that the entire movie industry is saved by obscure art films. He's not going to say that these obscure art films means that the movie industry is A-Ok in spite of movies like Transformers 2 (which Ebert hated quite a bit).

Ebert doesn't make arguments like that... because he realizes that the movie industry, like any industry, is mostly shaped (both in its perception and in what it will probably look like in the immediate future) by its most prominent and popular entries. And that's why the popularity of Transformers 2 really does worry him, regardless of whatever else might be available if you dig down deep amongst the full slate of movies for a year.

Virtually anybody who does a year in review for movies, or for anime, or for any entertainment medium or genre, are going to focus more on the biggest sellers or the most talked about entries of the year. And if there are popular trends there, then those trends will define the industry, and your average person's perception of it.


The thing I want to get across to people here is this... I'm not in this discussion just for my own sake.


On a personal enjoyment level, I'm largely content with the anime that's out there. There's some things I wish were there (like a high epic fantasy anime in the Lord of the Rings vein), but there's still good shows to watch.


But I've read and heard many, many anime fans (on this board and others - sometimes privately) tell me that they're really sick of the pantsu, or moe (which I myself like... so I'm not bringing it up for my sake), or some other anime convention.

The fact that they're all focusing on the same basic issue... I mean, maybe anime could use less pantsu or less of some other anime conventions.


Not wiped out completely, but less of it.

Let me ask you this... do you really think that a couple more prominent anime, with out otaku-centric tropes to it, would hurt the anime industry? Would be a bad thing?

If not, why are you and animeboy and a few others arguing so strenuously against the very idea, as it seems to me?

I mean, that's all the other side of the issue is really saying here. That it would be nice to have a couple more talked about animes, in the genres that they like, largely with out otaku-centric tropes.


We're not saying that we want to totally rid of anime of any one particular element... just that it would be nice if there was some more prominent anime with out certain elements. If the summer blockblusters , so to speak, were more diverse.


Something like Shana could have easily been such an anime if it didn't throw in certain shots near the end of its airing.

[Marcus H.]

I just passed by this thread and saw the title. I was confused about it.

What will be the cause of the doom of anime? Lack of anime? Or too much moeblob/pantsu/some other anime convention which hurts the brains of those who want decent anime?

[Ansalem]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

I just passed by this thread and saw the title. I was confused about it.

What will be the cause of the doom of anime? Lack of anime? Or too much moeblob/pantsu/some other anime convention which hurts the brains of those who want decent anime?

Not to sound rude, but read the first post at least. The main point of the OP is even in bold.

[Marcus H.]

I've read it and I was baffled with the next barrage of posts.

I've also cut out my comment from my last post by mistake. Silly me.

My other question is, why do they point out that they want to take away those "sickening" anime conventions that other anime fans are looking for in an anime? Isn't that inconsiderate? No one can't point out how many hate moe and how many like moe very much, but one thing is for certain, anime tries to cater all possible clients as an industry. Complain about the anime lineup for this year or the next and they don't give a damn.

And "doom of anime"? That's just as absurd as the topic regarding 12/21/2012 in the General Topic. No offense.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Sackett

Full Metal Panic for example. It has one, one, prominent panty shot in the first episode. There's a bit of fanservice in later episodes, but nothing you wouldn't see in a live action film. But that one panty shot stands out and turns off so many people. It has nothing to do with the plot, and Full Metal Panic is not a fanservice show. It just got thrown in as "extra".

I think the panty shot you're thinking of is actually near the end of episode two, not episode one. And while I'd agree that the show would have been better without it, I think it is an extremely minor issue. The first two episodes of Full Metal Panic fall among my favourite anime episodes ever, and all I can say to anyone who lets a single panty shot ruin the show for them is "dude, what's you problem?".

Plus, while I'd be for taking that particular panty shot out, I'd be against removing the slow-motion panty shot in the opening scene of Bakemonogatari or, to give another Full Metal Panic example, the fanservice in the Fumoffu hot springs episode. Both of those examples of fanservice get a big thumbs up from me.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Your argument, to me, would be a lot like Roger Ebert arguing that some good obscure art films makes up for a lot of people being displeased with the Summer Blockbuster movies. It would be like him saying that these obscure art films means that the movie industry is A-Ok in spite of movies like Transformers 2 (which Ebert hated quite a bit).

But Ebert doesn't make arguments like that... because he realizes that the movie industry, like any industry, is mostly shaped (both in its perception and in what it will probably look like in the immediate future) by its most prominent and popular entries. And that's why the popularity of Transformers 2 really does worry him, regardless of whatever else might be available if you dig down deep amongst the full slate of movies for a year.

The problem I have with this analogy is that the "summer blockbuster" of 2009 anime was Bakemonogatari. And as much as we've discussed the issue, I still don't know what that tells us about the anime industry except that we probably have some interesting times ahead.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Something like Shana could have easily been such an anime if it didn't throw in certain shots near the end of its airing.

Eh, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but isn't the correct term here "near the end of its DVD run"? Like I said, the weird bandage outfit made the TV cut but I don't think many of the panty shots did.

[npcomplete]

Triple_R but I'm telling you though, that some of the biggest sellers are also those without pantsu, those non-otaku-y shows, as I've mentioned in my previously. In fact I'll address:

Originally Posted by -Sho-

All is around money first .
Otakus are the best sheep for that .

to say that more accurately, otaku buys something of everything.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Let me ask you this... do you really think that a couple more prominent anime, with out otaku-centric tropes to it, would hurt the anime industry? Would be a bad thing?

If so, why are you and animeboy and a few others arguing so strenuously against the very idea, as it seems to me?

Of course not. In fact we seem to be on different wavelengths because my contention is that there really are good non-otaku-centric anime being made and in fact, a lot is always made, and quite a number are also big sellers, right along the few that are pantsu-anime. In FACT, pantsu anime make only a small portion of the top sellers and that's a trend that hasn't really changed; so lamenting the entire state of industry seems ridiculous in light of this.

What I'm arguing against is that the entire industry, meaning all of anime, has to be certain way in order to be "fixed". These people wrongly perceive a displacement of their beloved anime and so they want a reverse displacement. As I've said before, in terms of there being an anime pie with slices representing various genres and sub-genres, it's NOT that the slice of one genre or trope has somehow overtaken the rest., the accurate picture is that the whole anime pie has gotten bigger, along with buying trends. So I'll reiterate for examples:

Spoiler:

Phantom, Higashi no Eden, Aoi Bungaku, Guin Saga, Cross Game, FMA2, Shangri-La, Dogs: Bullets & Carnage, Sengoku Basara, Rideback, Viper's Creed, Ristorante Paradiso, Letter Bee, Winter Sonata, Kimi ni todoke, Hajime no Ippo 2, Birdy 2, First Squad,
and much more of non-fanservicey fair of that 215 list


and one can also look at the Oricon and Top 20 DVD and BD Japanese sales charts in to see that the sky is not falling: right along side K-ON, Queen's Blade, Strike Witches, Issho ni Training, we see that currently and in the recent past:
- FMA2
- Spice and Wolf 1,2
- Kara no Kyoukai
- Darker Than Black 1 (bd box), 2
- Macross Frontier
- Higashi no Eden
- Sengoku Basara
- Hetalia
- Code Geass 1,R2
- Gundam misc.
- Kuroshitsuji
- Bakemonogatari
- Evangelion 1.x
- FF7 AC
- Detroit Metal City
- Gintama
- Usavich
.. etc.
are all BIG sellers


In addition, glancing at the Top 20 weekly Oricon charts for recent titles, I see a continuously varied mix like:
- Tentai Senshi Sunred 2
- Seitokai no Ichizon
- Taisho Yakyuu Musume
- CANAAN
- Hayate 2
- Koihime Musou 2
- Tears to Tiara
- Valkyria Chronicles
- Isekai no Seikishi Monogatari

Now, whether or not you think some are more prominent than others, or more popular, or more talked about than others, is really a matter of perception I think.

And while I can see it as easily being conflated here, the matter of whether the Macross of today is as good as the Macross of before, or Gundam, or any very specific XYZ show within a very specific genre is an entirely different matter than the topic of this thread: "The state of anime, are we doomed?" which specifically mentions the popularity otaku anime killing off other non-otaku anime as the cause of that doom, and that is really what I'm rebutting.

[animeboy12]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If not, why are you and animeboy and a few others arguing so strenuously against the very idea, as it seems to me?

I'm not, I just hate it when people demonize conventions and genre that appeal to other people's taste because it doesn't appeal to them

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Let me ask you this... do you really think that a couple more prominent anime, with out otaku-centric tropes to it, would hurt the anime industry? Would be a bad thing?

Hell no, it's a bad thing when these shows do come out and are constantly ignored by people that are saying aren't enough of them.

I'm not saying less of these shows, I'm saying pay more attention to them. Cmon these aren't obscure art films, Canaan, Shikabane Hime, basquash, Tetsuwan Birdy Decode the list goes on.... these high-budget shows that appeal and nab a good portion of the Japanese audience and if people are to blind be the otaku oriented shows to see that well it's there loss. There are a number of different databases and resource to help people know what anime to look out for, they no excuse really, especially if you're posting on this site.

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

My other question is, why do they point out that they want to take away those "sickening" anime conventions that other anime fans are looking for in an anime? Isn't that inconsiderate? No one can't point out how many hate moe and how many like moe very much, but one thing is for certain, anime tries to cater all possible clients as an industry. Complain about the anime lineup for this year or the next and they don't give a damn.

yes it is very inconsiderate, and somewhat flawed since less anime.....well, less money making anime would is good thing. However the point of these kind topics isn't to be considerate, it's all about self-interest other wise they wouldn't all sound like angry ranting backed up by cherry picking, "it could always use some improvement", even worse "a lot of fans-", seriously, a lot of fan what? don't like things? that's new

I we're going seriously have discussion about the decline quality or doomed state of anime, then I wanna see lists, charts, graphs and maybe even some *gasp* analysis , not bitching, especially bitching on the internet.

[Sakuranbo]

I can't help but wonder if personal preference (or even a liking of the cliche`s) ever plays a role in these odd-year anime apocalypse speculations.

I've been an anime enthusist since 1996: when I saw the Genocyber movies, GITS, Roujin-Z, and others. My interest in anime piqued after seeing Project A-ko and I've found that certain anime of specific genres appeal to me more than others (action girl, harem, cyberpunk). I got into Tenchi & Slayers through-out the 90's and then reached a sort of "moot point" or gray area through 2000 - 2002. I found titles like Gundam Wing, and Outlaw Star to be pretty good (note I'm going with the NA "current" anime not JP "current") while others like Rurouni Kenshin, Blue Gender, & Trigun were all getting sparkling reviews from my peers I didn't find them too interesting. I'll be honest in that I never sat down & seriously watched any of them but if I had I may ended up liking them (like how I got into Bleach & One Piece) .

I have found that I am particularly fond of vintage or "old" anime, specifically from 70's to the early 90's. I enjoy watching Lupin, Ginga Nagareboshi Gin was excellent, and Slam Dunk just had something mystical about it that intrigues me. I don't know if those anime in particular contain some kind cliche or genre that my subconscious recognized as "good", or are just fun to watch (both are probably correct ), but I know that I liked them regardless of whatever kind of reviews or criticism they got or if my peers held them in high regard or despite what typical anime stereotypes I knew of (i.e. cyberpunk, harem, post-apocalptic future, kung-fu, schoolgirl, etc.)
I didn't give two squats about Naruto until I went out & bought the first uncut box set... which is one way I got into a new series.
as for 2009/2010 I've started watching more anime online (JP current): Shippuuden, FMA Brotherhood, and have even started watching titles that I usually don't (Moribito) mainly out of boredom but also because they are entertaining.

What I think it all boils down to is personal preference, I can remember people for years raving about "Neon Genesis Evangelion" and I didn't think much of it. What it comes down to is either you like it or don't. I will admit though that alot more classic anime had a jene se quoi that many lack today, but again i'm biased since I favor the vintage variety anyway.

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

My other question is, why do they point out that they want to take away those "sickening" anime conventions that other anime fans are looking for in an anime? Isn't that inconsiderate?

The following post is long and heavy for those not interested in analysis. Do not read if you don't want insight in this topic and simply want to post your minds and leave. Really, don't open it. Really, I mean it!

Spoiler for mindfrakk:

ISSUE No.1
Tease without pay off is the name of the game. You can keep the fans hooked by making them think that they will see all those convensions any moment now. They keep watching and watching and watching and watching, yerning for the convention to pop up any moment now. Here it comes. Any moment now. It will appear right now. A bit more. Almost there... Oh, look, the series reached its 300th episode...
On the other hand, throw the conventions at their face all the time and eventually they will be bored and start nagging. THAT is saturation. One unexpected quick pantsu shot every 10 episodes feels for me a lot more rewarding than a 100 pantsu shots per episodes. Because it is rare, special, unexpected.
I am sure that most will say "give us more pantsu!!!" but a smart producer will never please them right away. He will say "Ok, I will. Keep watching and I will give you what you want any moment now. Here it comes. Any moment now. It will appear right now. A bit more. Almost there... Oh, look, the series reached its 300th episode..."
And if you don't believe me, take any long series with stale plot or slow pacing (Naruto, Bleach, etc). Why do such series have still huge fanbases even when they have lost steam and are full of cliches? The initial feelings of the first episodes have something to do with it but mostly it is teasing. Really! It is! "Keep watching people, Naruto is going to be Hokage soon. Or Aizen's plan will be revealed. Here it comes. Any moment now. It will appear right now. A bit more. Almost there... Oh, look, the series reached its 300th episode..."

What I am trying to say here is that it is teasing and not really offering those conventions to the fans. A rather crude example is a starving dog that will go like crazy when you feed it just enough to not have a full stomache. If you feed it all the time, it will be far less interested in jumping in the air, trying to get to its feeding plate.

Another example is the prologue in my post. If you got all the way to this part, it means you were interested. If I didn't add the prologue, odds are you would think it is just a long, boring wall of text and would skip it.

ISSUE No.2
And another thing. This issue of the fans complaining happens because the producers pay attention to us. If they weren't, we wouldn't complain because it wouldn't matter. And even worse, they actually DON'T pay much attention to us and just give us the ilusion they do, so to build hype and mythos over their works FOR FREE. We live in times where hype and fandom affect a big portion of the sales, which is very misleading in my opinion as I see most series are not worth the digital ink they promise to offer. But then again it is the error of the fanboys, making a series to appear as the BEST ANIME EVER instead of adding lines like SO FAR, THIS YEAR, OF ALL THE SERIES I HAVE SEEN SO FAR or IN ITS GENRE. So don't really take the bait on most of what you hear.

ISSUE No.3
I for once do follow the trends and watch as much as I can even if I know that I will most likely not like it. That of course means that I bought or voted something, adding a plus to sales and making statistics show that I liked it because I bought it. So here is the thing. SALES SHOW COMERCIAL APPEAL. They do not really show CUSTOMER PLEASING. Something can still sell millions of copies, most can not like it yet it will rave how it sold millions of copies, thus it is good, thus YOU SHOULD BUY IT TOO BECAUSE IF IT SOLD SO MUCH IT HAS TO BE GOOD. The reverse applies as well. A good series/product can sell peanuts and most will be pleased with it but because it sold few copies most will think it is bad because IT DIDN'T SELL.

I had this guy on another forum looking for a series as great as Code Geass (his words, not mine). My suggestion was Legend of Galactic Heroes, with the addition of "it eats Code Geass for breakfast". What were the replies to that?
1) It is old, thus it can't be good
2) It has many episodes, thus it will have a lot of fillers
3) Nobody knows it, thus it can't be good
4) The characters have old hairstyles
5) No mecha or half naked chicks

I swear, they said all that! And I know there are those that didn't like the series but THESE ARE FRAKKING BS REASONS TO REJECT A SERIES YOU DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER TO WATCH.
So before we talk about anime conventions, how about talking about fan conventions? How things like the year a series was made is more important that the context of a series. Is Gundam 00 better because it is newer than Turn-A and Gundam series recycle their context, thus there is no reason to watch Turn-A? Yeah, right... Yet, many believe that.
So please, the next time you nag about anime cliches and stuff, make sure you don't have a think against certain tropes or concentions yourselves.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Ash Falls Town

Going by MAL user rankings we see that Baccano is at number 78.
This is where it is in comparison to other 2007 anime. All 2007 anime above it are on it.

This is irrelevant, it was ignored back in 2007, there was more discussion for Baccano! on animeondvds forums than there was here during the show and AS probably has 100x more active members than AOD. Just somehow on that forum we managed to get the majority of people who watch fansubs into it while it aired. Through countless bitching in Currently Watching Threads that not enough people were watching it.

You point to myanimelist, well look at the episode discussion threads on that forum.

http://myanimelist.net/anime/2251/Baccano!/forum

Now compare that to Myself Yourself

http://myanimelist.net/anime/2926/My...Yourself/forum

Baccano! being licensed greatly inflates its figures on sites like MAL and ANN in "watched" totals, doesn't change my point it was ignored by the majority while it aired. When people whine about anime sucking compared to the good old days and ignore shows like Baccano! and Mononoke (wait maybe this is mainstream too now?) they need to slap themselves.

As for Dhurarara!!, quite a few factors in why it's more popular while airing on forums like this.

1. Baccano built itself an audience over time and this is the closest thing we'll get to a sequel since its from the same author and animation team. You instantly bring in that fanbase who're craving for more, I see a lot of "Even if it's half as good as Baccano! it's going to be worth watching comments".

2. It's airing in a minor Winter season compared to Baccano! airing in major Spring Season, it's a big fish in a small pond.

3. It's aimed at the females more than Baccano! was.

[Nemesis]

Um just to tell everyone again...............

There has been a big decline in long running series.(50+ eps kind of anime)

Any idea why is this so?This trend has been going on for at least a while already.This might be a sign related to the topic.