Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans Episode 45 Discussion / Poll

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by tdx

I'm now armed with the book IBO World & Mechanics, hehe.

I DEMAND you to post more interesting things from that book on this forum!!! (maybe in the tech thread)

Originally Posted by Olengie

Instead, I thought that Rustal would activate a whole bunch of Mobile Armours to destroy Humanity again and it would be up to Tekkadan and whoever to eradicate them. Rustal would still be the final boss. lol.

I certainly hope that won't happen because it would go against Rustal's motive & character and makes zero sense. Rustal is pro status quo & order. Why would he do something that will destroy the status quo even worse than McG's rebellion and awakens mega-threats that he can't control?

[Skaddix]

Yeah I don't see Rustal doing that at all. I far more likely seeing McGillis Flip the Board.

Destroys trust in Gjhallahorn and Mobile Armors cant be controlled their prime directive is kill as many people as possible.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Olengie

Instead, I thought that Rustal would activate a whole bunch of Mobile Armours to destroy Humanity again and it would be up to Tekkadan and whoever to eradicate them. Rustal would still be the final boss. lol.

Rustal wouldn't do that. He knows how dangerous and uncontrollable the MAs are. He's too smart for that. The only way I could see him unleashing one is if he was sure that he himself could control it.

Iok on the other hand? Yeah, I could see him doing it. Thinking it as the perfect way to anihilate his enemies and not even realizing that he would doom himself and his men in the process.
The idiot still doesn't realize that he himself is responsible for his own men's deaths on more than one occasion.

[Skaddix]

Eh I don't even think Iok is that dumb.

Besides Rustal has him on a tight leash right now.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Eh I don't even think Iok is that dumb.

Besides Rustal has him on a tight leash right now.

But what if Rustal dies and Iok is left as commander of Arianrhod? And of course is insane with rage at McGillis and Tekkadan over Rustal's death?

We've seen Iok do a lot of idiotic stuff in the name of his emotions.

[Skaddix]

I guess but I don't see either side having a chance to retreat and regroup. Unless they both back off to lick their wounds.

[DMurphy]

You know, Rustal wouldn't do that, and Iok probably wouldn't, but you know who probably would, because while he knows they're dangerous he's also a massive proponent of 'fear and an enemy unites people,' (yo, Ein), has little regard for casualties, and moreover believes that he's found people like Agnika Kaieru who would be able to stop them?

McGillis.

McGillis absolutely would awaken Mobile Armours if he thought it would help him see his ideals taken up by Gjallarhorn and the world, because, as Baklazan alluded to when he said that Agnika Kaieru and his ideals were the product of a time when a strong leader was required, McGillis' entire ideological viewpoint is so intrinsically tied up in the Calamity War that it can't necessarily survive outside of it.

Like, I know that the party line is sometimes 'McGillis is a measured, calculated sort who has no reason to do anything batshit crazy,' but consider: McGillis is fundamentally broken as a human being, and we've already seen that, actually, he's not nearly as calm and measured as he wants people to think he is, and you have all this wrapped up in someone who idolises Agnika Kaieru and the ideals born of the Calamity War.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by DMurphy

You know, Rustal wouldn't do that, and Iok probably wouldn't, but you know who probably would, because while he knows they're dangerous he's also a massive proponent of 'fear and an enemy unites people,' (yo, Ein), has little regard for casualties, and moreover believes that he's found people like Agnika Kaieru who would be able to stop them?

McGillis.

McGillis absolutely would awaken Mobile Armours if he thought it would help him see his ideals taken up by Gjallarhorn and the world, because, as Baklazan alluded to when he said that Agnika Kaieru and his ideals were the product of a time when a strong leader was required, McGillis' entire ideological viewpoint is so intrinsically tied up in the Calamity War that it can't necessarily survive outside of it.

Like, I know that the party line is sometimes 'McGillis is a measured, calculated sort who has no reason to do anything batshit crazy,' but consider: McGillis is fundamentally broken as a human being, and we've already seen that, actually, he's not nearly as calm and measured as he wants people to think he is, and you have all this wrapped up in someone who idolises Agnika Kaieru and the ideals born of the Calamity War.

But he was already that broken person under a calm demeanor who idolizes Agnika Kaieru, back when we first discovered Hashmal as well.

And at that time, I have no doubt he knew where Bael was and could have gotten it if he wanted to. However, his first response to hearing about anything in regards to an MA is BACK OFF! STOP DIGGING!

It's not "hold on to that for me" or "send it to me as carefully as you can", he didn't even want them to finish digging it up. Digging up the rest of Hashmal (if it hadn't woken up and dug itself out) would have taken months. But he told them to stop and not to bring any MAs with them, in order to try to wake it up. He was probably going to have them re-bury it and then deem that part of the land off limits.

McGillis does love the Calamity War, he's the leading expert on it. And by that notion, he also know that the MAs are impossible to control and even harder to stop. Even Agnika needed help.
After taking such steps to make sure one doesn't wake up, I can't see him trying to wake up another one.

McGillis is sociopathic, not crazy.

Also, he never meant for it to get to this point as he was trying to use the legitimacy of Bael to take over. if he had planned to use an MA to do that, he would have released it right after he got Bael.

Now, he knows he doesn't have the manpower or resources or time or effort to do so, even if he wanted to, which I doubt.

[asaqe]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Rustal wouldn't do that. He knows how dangerous and uncontrollable the MAs are. He's too smart for that. The only way I could see him unleashing one is if he was sure that he himself could control it.

Iok on the other hand? Yeah, I could see him doing it. Thinking it as the perfect way to anihilate his enemies and not even realizing that he would doom himself and his men in the process.
The idiot still doesn't realize that he himself is responsible for his own men's deaths on more than one occasion.

This seems like something more along Gaelio's alley at this point given how revenge obsessesed he is. Damn the feelings of his sister who almost killed herself, damn the feelings of those staying out of this. McGillis and his followers will all die and that include those space rats that calls themselves Tekkadan.

Given the fact that his AV system is from the same man who calls orphans like Mika and Tekkadan sinners? What better weapon to unleash on sinners than a mobile armor?

[DMurphy]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

But he was already that broken person under a calm demeanor who idolizes Agnika Kaieru, back when we first discovered Hashmal as well.

And at that time, I have no doubt he knew where Bael was and could have gotten it if he wanted to. However, his first response to hearing about anything in regards to an MA is BACK OFF! STOP DIGGING!

It's not "hold on to that for me" or "send it to me as carefully as you can", he didn't even want them to finish digging it up. Digging up the rest of Hashmal (if it hadn't woken up and dug itself out) would have taken months. But he told them to stop and not to bring any MAs with them, in order to try to wake it up. He was probably going to have them re-bury it and then deem that part of the land off limits.

McGillis does love the Calamity War, he's the leading expert on it. And by that notion, he also know that the MAs are impossible to control and even harder to stop. Even Agnika needed help.
After taking such steps to make sure one doesn't wake up, I can't see him trying to wake up another one.

McGillis is sociopathic, not crazy.

Also, he never meant for it to get to this point as he was trying to use the legitimacy of Bael to take over. if he had planned to use an MA to do that, he would have released it right after he got Bael.

Now, he knows he doesn't have the manpower or resources or time or effort to do so, even if he wanted to, which I doubt.

Isn't that a self-defeating argument?

Like you said, McGillis never intended it to get to this point. Up until now, McGillis didn't realise that Agnika Kaieru's ideals didn't carry as much weight as he thought they did -- which means he would have had no reason to want to escalate things with Mobile Armours at the time when Hashmal was unearthed and destroyed.

But McGillis does realise that now. He has to -- his plan hinged on Falk and Baklazan bowing to Bael's authority and, by extension, Agnika Kaieru, but they've defied his expectations and not done so. Baklazan has even told him outright that the laws and ideals put in place by Agnika don't apply outside the Calamity War.

That McGillis wouldn't do something drastic like awaken Mobile Armours when he thought his plan would work is not an accurate predicter of what he'll do when he knows his plan is based on fundamentally flawed logic. McGillis' behaviour when he thinks that everyone acknowledges Agnika Kaieru's ideals as being the pinnacle of human behaviour is not going to be the same as when he's been told that those ideals are only applicable during war.

Also, McG is pretty crazy. Quite apart from the whole paedophilia thing (because that is what professing seemingly romantic love for a child is), he presents an outside image of being calm and in control of everything around him, but there are several points where he is visibly unhinged, and most of those points revolve around Agnika.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think McG would release Mobile Armours for the hell of it: I think he'd do so with a very clear plan for how to then deal with that problem, because my contention is that McG would be inclined to create a scenario where Agnika's ideals (and by extension his own) would regain societal relevance -- and that's not a scenario that involves letting MAs run rampant, just one that allows people to be terrified by them.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by DMurphy

Isn't that a self-defeating argument?

Like you said, McGillis never intended it to get to this point. Up until now, McGillis didn't realise that Agnika Kaieru's ideals didn't carry as much weight as he thought they did -- which means he would have had no reason to want to escalate things with Mobile Armours at the time when Hashmal was unearthed and destroyed.

But McGillis does realise that now. He has to -- his plan hinged on Falk and Baklazan bowing to Bael's authority and, by extension, Agnika Kaieru, but they've defied his expectations and not done so. Baklazan has even told him outright that the laws and ideals put in place by Agnika don't apply outside the Calamity War.

That McGillis wouldn't do something drastic like awaken Mobile Armours when he thought his plan would work is not an accurate predicter of what he'll do when he knows his plan is based on fundamentally flawed logic. McGillis' behaviour when he thinks that everyone acknowledges Agnika Kaieru's ideals as being the pinnacle of human behaviour is not going to be the same as when he's been told that those ideals are only applicable during war.

Also, McG is pretty crazy. Quite apart from the whole paedophilia thing (because that is what professing seemingly romantic love for a child is), he presents an outside image of being calm and in control of everything around him, but there are several points where he is visibly unhinged, and most of those points revolve around Agnika.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think McG would release Mobile Armours for the hell of it: I think he'd do so with a very clear plan for how to then deal with that problem, because my contention is that McG would be inclined to create a scenario where Agnika's ideals (and by extension his own) would regain societal relevance -- and that's not a scenario that involves letting MAs run rampant, just one that allows people to be terrified by them.

Well, its not the ideals persay, but the laws that exist surrounding Agnika's status as founder, that don't have as much swing. Ideals are ideals, they can be adhered to or not depending on the person and organization. Gjallarhorn has already proven long ago that they no longer are lead by the ideals that Agnika and the original Seven Stars probably had. In fact, we don't even know if Agnika's ideals and that of the Seven Stars were even the same.
Agnika is interestingly left out of the Seven Stars despite the fact that he is the founder of Gjallarhorn. The Seven Stars originally were the seven people helping him fight in the Calamity War. We have to assume that Agnika lived long enough to set up Gjallarhorn and become its leader, died prior to the advent of the "Seven Stars" being formed as that is the reason that it's not the "Eight Stars"

Either that, or Agnika's position as leader was outside of the circle of seven and that the seven proginators of the families we see today, were more like the knights to a king, then them all being of equal standing. (Like how Arthur is outside of his knights or Robin Hood is seperate from his merry men.)
Considering the rule in regards to Agnika's position as well as Bael being a stand in for "Excalibur", I'd say it was probably a mix of the two, but closer to the second option.

But beyond all that, even if they didn't do as McGillis expected of them in regards to those ancient laws, I don't think he had time to set up the MA thing. He pretty much went straight from that into this battle.

I could potentially see what your saying that he would put out an MA (a dragon, interesting how the Arthurian legend seems to apply) for him to fight and defeat in order to state that the laws should still be adheared to, but I don't know if he would take that chance. And if he was going to do that, he would have also done it right after the other Stars denied him. Rather than trying to fight Rustal against all odds, if he actually had an MA that he could actively control, he would have set it against Rustal's forces, then destroy it himself after it had decimated them. There is no reason to go through the whole Rustal battle.

He and Rustal are alike in this regard, I think both would perhaps use an MA if they absolutely knew they could control the thing, but other then that, both are too smart and cautious to use it.

As for is McGillis being crazy, I guess it depends on what you mean by "crazy". Does he have a personality disorder? Yes, along, sadly, with most of the cast. McGillis is slightly sociopathic as is Mikazuki. Orga and Mika are also codependent. Rustal is psychopathic. Atra has very low-esteem at points, Iok...I'm sure there is something for Iok, but right now, I'll just call it a case of stupidity. And the list goes on. So, if you mean that as "crazy", then yeah, he is.
However, if you mean "crazy" as in he's insane, then no, he's not. The elements you described him showing, do show the sociopathic parts of him, but not actual insanity. The only people in the series so far that I would classify as that, would be Ein, especially once he became Graze Ein, and perhaps Masahiro at the point right before his death.

[DMurphy]

Hang on, hang on. Point of order: Rustal isn't psychopathic.

Rustal, as far as we've seen, is a completely mentally well person who does bad things, like a lot of mentally well people do. Same with Iok. Rustal doesn't do bad things because he's afflicted with mental illness, as far as we've seen, he does bad things out of an entirely rational and thought through desire to maintain political power. That is well within the purview of the mentally healthy.

Doing bad things =/= mentally ill.

McGillis also isn't 'slightly sociopathic' -- in fact, he fits every symptom of sociopathy very well: Superficial charm, manipulative, grandiose sense of self, pathologically lying, lack of remorse, deep-seated rage, shallow emotions like warmth and joy, callousness, deviant sexual behaviour such as child sexual abuse (borderline, since there's no indication he's done anything with Almiria -- but his overtures towards her are distinctly romantic, so there's no getting around the fact that he's a paedophile), lack of a realistic life plan, criminal or entrepeneurial versatility (defined as 'changing one's image frequently' -- the man literally pretended to be a businessman).

It's also worth noting that sociopathy and psychopathy are very similar -- in fact, sociopathy's original definition was 'psychopathy resulting from a social environment and learned behaviours, as opposed to the result of brain chemistry or architecture' -- so McG could very easily also be classed as a psychopath.

As far as whether McG has had time to set up anything involving an MA: He probably hasn't! But it doesn't need much setting up. All it needs is for him to know the location of a sleeping MA -- Gjallarhorn probably has a few of their resting places recorded.

[tdx]

I don't believe we'll see anymore MAs. They're relics of the past that should stay buried in the sands of time. Plus, it will be pretty laughable if it'll turn out that Agnika the Great & co failed to do their job not once but twice.

[DMurphy]

Originally Posted by tdx

I don't believe we'll see anymore MAs. They're relics of the past that should stay buried in the sands of time. Plus, it will be pretty laughable if it'll turn out that Agnika the Great & co failed to do their job not once but twice.

I'm -- still divided on it. My contention was that McGillis is more likely to awaken one than Rustal or Iok, and I hold that that's definitely true. Whether he actually does so depends on exactly how Okada and co want this series to end, really.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by DMurphy

I'm -- still divided on it. My contention was that McGillis is more likely to awaken one than Rustal or Iok, and I hold that that's definitely true. Whether he actually does so depends on exactly how Okada and co want this series to end, really.

What is the point? As said McGillis first reaction to MA and Pluma reaching his ears is that "Don't touch anything!".

McGillis is the Calamity War expert and Rustal isn't, else he would've told Iok not to bring Mobile Suits.

Rustal would only do it if it was politically beneficial to him via false flag. Which is pointless as he did already the Danleif false flag.

Gaelio and Carta were not false flag operations just that McGillis being a bad friend not telling them what they are doing were mistakes in the public eye. He doesn't need to do an elaborate plot just let them dig their own graves by nudging them a bit.

McGillis lets others honesty do them in. Rustal however is a dishonest bastard.

[asaqe]

True. I wouldnt be surprised if he invoked Iok's sense of instinct to unleash a terror so he could take out Tekkadan indirectly or kill their friends while Julieta and Iok run off on a wild goose chase to fight the machinr and come back with more political ammo against McGillis.

[DMurphy]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

What is the point? As said McGillis first reaction to MA and Pluma reaching his ears is that "Don't touch anything!".

McGillis is the Calamity War expert and Rustal isn't, else he would've told Iok not to bring Mobile Suits.

I've already addressed what the point would be and why McG's reaction to Hashmal isn't an accurate way to gauge how he'd feel now.

Rustal would only do it if it was politically beneficial to him via false flag. Which is pointless as he did already the Danleif false flag.

Rustal wouldn't do it at all. Rustal values order and his own power above all other things, he'd never even consider awakening something that would undermine order and be more powerful than him.

Rustal has his limits, and those limits are 'anything that would undermine his power.'

Gaelio and Carta were not false flag operations just that McGillis being a bad friend not telling them what they are doing were mistakes in the public eye. He doesn't need to do an elaborate plot just let them dig their own graves by nudging them a bit.

Er.

Nothing Carta did in-story was in the public eye. Nor did Gaelio. Ein was in the public eye as a big scary monster for people to fear (so McG has form for 'let's all be afraid of the big scary monster' tactics), but Ein's mechanisation was McG's plan through and through, with Gaelio just signing off on it without knowing what it involved.

False flag operations don't even have anything to do with this.

McGillis lets others honesty do them in. Rustal however is a dishonest bastard.

McGillis literally fostered an entirely separate identity, complete with its own company, for the purposes of deceiving people.

I don't think you can claim that McGillis isn't dishonest.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by DMurphy

I've already addressed what the point would be and why McG's reaction to Hashmal isn't an accurate way to gauge how he'd feel now.

Again pointless as MAs won't be used again. Else would've got hints of gunpla kits.

Rustal wouldn't do it at all. Rustal values order and his own power above all other things, he'd never even consider awakening something that would undermine order and be more powerful than him.

Rustal has his limits, and those limits are 'anything that would undermine his power.'

Nope Rustal would burn the house down just to make himself look good. Dort he encouraged rebellion so he can put them down himself but gave them fake arms for show. Abrau-SAU he tried to have a head of state murdered and had his man cause a border war. Rustal planning to do the same other power blocs. All to make McGillis look incompetent. His latest false flag had him kill his own men to validate him using Danleif when he already has a 2 to 1 advantage.

Rustal isn't about order it is a lie it is about the power to play god that everybody is beneath him. Worst case of crab mentality.

Er.

Nothing Carta did in-story was in the public eye. Nor did Gaelio. Ein was in the public eye as a big scary monster for people to fear (so McG has form for 'let's all be afraid of the big scary monster' tactics), but Ein's mechanisation was McG's plan through and through, with Gaelio just signing off on it without knowing what it involved.

False flag operations don't even have anything to do with this.

Both violated the sovereignty of the power blocks when the treaties they had said Gjallarhorn can't interfere with their territory or internal affairs.

Both Carta and Gaelio are Affluenza kids that has no inkling of how the outside world works. Iok is worse than them but they grew up with the same mentality. Rustal is just better than them covering his tracks.

False flags are Rustal's preferred tactic. McGillis just gives his victims enough rope to hang themselves with. Case in point Iok.

McGillis literally fostered an entirely separate identity, complete with its own company, for the purposes of deceiving people.

I don't think you can claim that McGillis isn't dishonest.

Oh McGillis uses those too honest for his schemes that doesn't need much to lift a finger as he is giving them what they want like a Djinn. You know what they say be careful what you wish for.

Rustal is both dishonest about his ideals and tactics making him not the usual gullible person McGillis deals with.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

I gotta say...you guys got pretty worked up discussing about a "what if" scenario .

[DMurphy]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I gotta say...you guys got pretty worked up discussing about a "what if" scenario .

I think the problem is that I said "This 'what if' is more likely this way," and several people read that and then mentally altered it to "This is definitely going to happen, definitely, now, right now, definitely, right now, now, immediately, definitely."

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Again pointless as MAs won't be used again. Else would've got hints of gunpla kits.

Yes, dear, it's a 'what if' scenario. We established this.

Nope Rustal would burn the house down just to make himself look good. Dort he encouraged rebellion so he can put them down himself but gave them fake arms for show. Abrau-SAU he tried to have a head of state murdered and had his man cause a border war. Rustal planning to do the same other power blocs. All to make McGillis look incompetent. His latest false flag had him kill his own men to validate him using Danleif when he already has a 2 to 1 advantage.

Rustal isn't about order it is a lie it is about the power to play god that everybody is beneath him. Worst case of crab mentality.

No, no he wouldn't.

Rustal wants power, and he wants authority, and to have that you need people to have power over, an institution to prop up that power, military forces, influence, and above all, order.

Rustal is, in essence, the Status Quo Guy. He has power, and he wants to keep it, and that necessarily involves limiting the measures he takes. That's why he didn't fire on McGillis' fleet with the Dainsleifs -- he fired on Tekkadan, because Tekkadan, a mercenary group, neither offer him benefits if he keeps them alive, nor problems if he kills them.

Both violated the sovereignty of the power blocks when the treaties they had said Gjallarhorn can't interfere with their territory or internal affairs.

Both Carta and Gaelio are Affluenza kids that has no inkling of how the outside world works. Iok is worse than them but they grew up with the same mentality. Rustal is just better than them covering his tracks.

False flags are Rustal's preferred tactic. McGillis just gives his victims enough rope to hang themselves with. Case in point Iok.

That's ... not what 'in the public eye' means. In the public eye means people were watching. Nobody was watching when Carta and Gaelio screwed up.

Oh McGillis uses those too honest for his schemes that doesn't need much to lift a finger as he is giving them what they want like a Djinn. You know what they say be careful what you wish for.

Rustal is both dishonest about his ideals and tactics making him not the usual gullible person McGillis deals with.

McGillis does lift a finger, though. He does so frequently. He intervenes in battles, he sends agents to intervene in battles, he exposes other's wrongdoings, he hatches plans to make Ein into a giant robot, he lies frequently and often.

You seem to be mistaking 'opportunistic' for 'honest.' McGillis sees opportunities created by other people and alters his plans to account for them, but that isn't the same as 'using those who are too honest.'