Madoka Magica - Spoilers & Speculation

[panzerfan]

Well, this is a self-admission of why I'd think this way on Incubator. The Incubator to me follows axioms as there's a level of predictability in that:
-he cannot and would not grant power to an individual against their will,
-he did not turn away from any question specifically addressed to him,
-he does not always act consistent to that of his interests,
-he stated that he is not allowed to go beyond a lobbying role in 'helping' a client to come to a wish.
-he stated repeatedly that he has no ability to interfere with the magical girls' actions.

This is why I've stated thus. Defining good and evil is a whole other bag of worms that I personally wanted to restrict by using the loaded terms onto the characters at play. And who knows, maybe just like an eldridch abomination, the god to the Incubator does not even interact with humanity in any shape or form.

@vandakiara:
We have questioned about the words of the Incubator in numerous instances. Our only problem is that, as someone said before, the Incubator so far has made no lie and it is difficult to not consider his words as that of 'truth', if only for the reason there there is nothing that can really overturn his words. If his words are put to doubt, then who's to go on regarding the mechanics of the system?

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by taofd

Ethical schools don't apply here. The girls don't subscribe to any particular school of ethics, nor do we know how QB thinks.

How did you even derive that QBs ethical system was rule based? We have no insight into how QB thinks, nevermind his ethical system.

Madoka's moral paradox? What? I don't mean to be rude, but if this is a form of intellectual masturbation, then please stop, I don't really see how talking about the various ethical systems contribute to a discussion on QB or Kyoko's intent being evil or not. Furthermore, this is not about their end results, but rather if they have ill intent.

Madoka's moral paradox most likely stems from the fact that she's getting emotionally and mentally ripped apart from her own desires to stay true to what she believes to be right (not getting involved in Inkyubeytor's highly questionable racket of combat) but having the desire to find a way to correct the situation that is itself no longer right (which so far only involves contracting as her choice).

The belief that Inkyubeytor's moral/ethic code is rule based is based on the assumption that he functions strictly adherent towards a set of rules he does not question nor deviates from. He is, in some way, almost mechanical in his actions and does not question them whenever someone brings up the "how could you do this shit?" question on him. I think he does know why humans act as such, but doesn't subscribe to it, because the system he follows is different and perhaps he finds them more solid and grounded than the ones the MGs (humans). Panzerfan's assumption that he is deontologic in practice stems from the belief that the strongest way to explain his abject adherence to his own rule set and denies everyone else' must stem from his belief that the rules he follow must hold more foundation than everyone else', so thus he disregards them because his code is more "logical" than the more "emotional" ones the humans question him with.

This of course doesn't answer who among them is right and more importantly what is good and what is evil, and that's something else entirely. What it does at least try to answer is why he does what he does unquestioningly, and the answer to the "why" should at least help getting on the road to answering the "what", specifically trying to get out of the gray area between good and evil and place him firmly in one or the other, and trying to figure our out what the exact the moral standards that govern the entire show is that would at least allow us a single standard to judge everyone in a fair manner. Trying to find out if someone is evil will invariably need us to look at everything and try to unify them into some scale, and skipping specific parts of the character will make such a judgment less valid.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Madoka's moral paradox most likely stems from the fact that she's getting emotionally and mentally ripped apart from her own desires to stay true to what she believes to be right (not getting involved in Inkyubeytor's highly questionable racket of combat) but having the desire to find a way to correct the situation that is itself no longer right (which so far only involves contracting as her choice).

The belief that Inkyubeytor's moral/ethic code is rule based is based on the assumption that he functions strictly adherent towards a set of rules he does not question nor deviates from. He is, in some way, almost mechanical in his actions and does not question them whenever someone brings up the "how could you do this shit?" question on him. I think he does know why humans act as such, but doesn't subscribe to it, because the system he follows is different and perhaps he finds them more solid and grounded than the ones the MGs (humans). Panzerfan's assumption that he is deontologic in practice stems from the belief that the strongest way to explain his abject adherence to his own rule set and denies everyone else' must stem from his belief that the rules he follow must hold more foundation than everyone else', so thus he disregards them because his code is more "logical" than the more "emotional" ones the humans question him with.

This of course doesn't answer who among them is right and more importantly what is good and what is evil, and that's something else entirely. What it does at least try to answer is why he does what he does unquestioningly, and the answer to the "why" should at least help getting on the road to answering the "what", specifically trying to get out of the gray area between good and evil and place him firmly in one or the other, and trying to figure our out what the exact the moral standards that govern the entire show is that would at least allow us a single standard to judge everyone in a fair manner. Trying to find out if someone is evil will invariably need us to look at everything and try to unify them into some scale, and skipping specific parts of the character will make such a judgment less valid.

I agree that QB is bound by rules, but whether or not these represent his personal beliefs is another. For all we know, he could be manipulating the rules for his benefit.Or perhaps, he is aiming to "be a good QB" and fulfill whatever task that has been assigned to him. It is even possible that he sees this as the only way to save the earth, at the expense of a few mahou shoujo.

Madoka is conflicted, but currently we don't know the source of her indecision. Is she afraid of meeting a similar demise to Mami? Can she not decide on a wish? Perhaps she feels she would never make a good mahou shoujo?

(I will be away, so no responses for a while...)

[MeoTwister5]

Inkyubeytor has always said she's the most powerful he's ever seen (which is most likely true), she's already had an idea what she wanted to wish for and would have probably done it if Homura hadn't turned the furball into lunch meat, and has already accepted Mami's death yet has still had inclinations of contracting. From here, I'd say she's no longer stuck on this question, but on something more personal, that would affect her ultimate decision.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Inkyubeytor has always said she's the most powerful he's ever seen (which is most likely true), she's already had an idea what she wanted to wish for and would have probably done it if Homura hadn't turned the furball into lunch meat, and has already accepted Mami's death yet has still had inclinations of contracting. From here, I'd say she's no longer stuck on this question, but on something more personal, that would affect her ultimate decision.

Madoka's wish before Mami's death and her wish after it are slightly different.

Before Mami died, she said that she wanted to become like Mami and help others. Now, her desires are a lot more focused and compact. She was tempted when Kyoko and Sayaka were fighting, and when Sayaka went AWOL. Both times, she was just desperate to stop a crisis situation that affected her friends, which is a lot more specific than just helping others. In addition, she acknowledges that making a contract is a sacrifice on her part, when before she didn't believe she had a high price to pay at all, just that she had to be careful with her one and only wish.

[Nikkan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walpurgis_Night
also called "burning of the witches"

[ronelm2000]

"Burning of the Witches?"

Does that mean a Mahou Shoujo fest? =P

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by taofd

Actually, QB has yet to do "irreparable" harm.

Well, it depends on if Sayaka ever gets out of the mess she's currently in. Even if she does get out of that mess, it will almost certainly require extraordinary measures, which means that the harm that Kyubey visited upon her would have been irreparable in most normal course of events.

It depends on what you define as irreparable. Does removing one's soul do harm? It is "different" and may impinge on our human notion of "right" but when you really think of it, it's actually the most efficient thing considering.

When it comes to whether or not harm was visited upon a person, it is the perception of the person who is impacted by an action, and not the intent of the person who takes this action, that is at question here. After all, this is a key reason why we differentiate between the intent behind an action (what a person was hoping to achieve by taking a particular action), and the actual impact of that action (what results this action has for the people impacted by it).

Sayaka cleary felt grievously harmed by Kyubey removing her soul from her body and placing it in a soul gem. She made this abundantly clear to Madoka on at least two separate occassions. You and I may disagree with Sayaka's assessment here, but it is her assessment to make, as she's the one having these actions impact upon her.

To use an analogy, imagine that Kyubey is a boxing coach, and Sayaka is his star boxer. To strengthen Sayaka, and improve her chances of success in boxing competitions, Kyubey secretly injects Sayaka with steroids every night while she sleeps. This does indeed make Sayaka stronger, aiding her in her boxing career. It also, however, causes her to undergo frequent roid rage, ultimately destroying her friendship with Madoka and her budding romance with Kamijo.

Coach Kyubey may not have intended harm here, and in his opinion Sayaka benefitted from his actions, but in Sayaka's opinion the benefits of those actions simply aren't worth the associated costs, and she feels grievously harmed and violated by Kyubey injecting her with steroids without gaining her explicit approval on that particular aspect of her agreeing to be his star boxer. And what she feels is what is most important here when we consider the actual impact of actions, as oppossed to the intent behind them.

For Kyoko, as I mentioned earlier, I think there are several mitigating factors. I don't consider her as someone who is doing the things out of ill intent, she's simply looking after herself.

There's no question that she once intended to kill Sayaka. And given that this isn't a case of euthanasia (let's put the poor suffering person out of his or her misery for his or her own sake), this is clear-cut ill intent, imo.

However, it's almost a moot point now, due to how Kyoko has completely changed her approach to Sayaka over the course of this anime. So while she may have once been evil, she no longer is, imo.

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by Lord Crow

I don't think anyone is saying that we should let him keep doing what he does, even if it is extremely harmful. It's more that even if we must take action because he causes harm, Kyubey himself isn't trying to cause harm and is not intending it so he isn't evil. If a wild animal attacks you and you kill it, it isn't because the animal is evil it's because it's you would die if you just let it continue.

I think people needs to stop comparing QB to wild animals. It's not a valid comparison. QB is clearly an intelligent life form fully capable of understanding human values and morals and he is shown to have that understanding. He just choose to disregard them.

But back to the point about holding him accountable. If everyone agreed on that point, there wouldn't be any argument. Unless there are some misunderstanding, several posters seem to think QB should not be held responsible due to him operating under a different value system - which is essentially saying if a human operates under a different value system to all others, he can do whatever he pleased and not be held accountable.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

I think people needs to stop comparing QB to wild animals. It's not a valid comparison. QB is clearly an intelligent life form fully capable of understanding human values and morals and he is shown to have that understanding. He just choose to disregard them.

But back to the point about holding him accountable. If everyone agreed on that point, there wouldn't be any argument. Unless there are some misunderstanding, several posters seem to think QB should not be held responsible due to him operating under a different value system - which is essentially saying if a human operates under a different value system to all others, he can do whatever he pleased and not be held accountable.

Claiming that Kyubey is capable of understanding human morals isn't a valid statement either when he not only has a different sense of right and wrong, but he lacks some of the most basic human emotions.
When Madoka cried over Sayaka's "dead" body and Kyoko grew angry in ep5, Kyubey said that he didn't understand why they reacted that way. If he did understand, he would have dismissed their sentiments as foolish, unnecessary, or something along those lines.

Hypothetically, if a human operated under a different value system, that does not mean the human would be allowed to do as he pleased. Prime examples would be the mentally ill, such as schizophrenics and psychopaths: they must be stopped, but they are not placed in the same category or confined in the same institution as a criminal... as last not anymore. This isn't the early 19th century.

Whatever Kyubey is planning has to be stopped because he is condemning the fate of others with his contract, but no one should expect him to understand why humans would cry or why he is wrong.

[Candyshark]

My current problem is what ties Madoka and Homura together? Or rather said why Madoka is so important because so far I fail to see a single redeeming factor about her. If something happens with Homura Madoka is doomed. Who knows how many "Endless Eight" Homura went through. The girl is saint in my eyes even if she is doing it purely because of the selfish reasons. And if Madoka goes on cross for sake all other, still not feeling it be as any grander than the torture Homura suffers.
In XxxHolic there was nice line where one of the antogonists said to main character that hurting or sacrificing yourself for the sake of saving others might hurt them as much.

Another thing it won't solve a thing since system still preserved. Once you are part of the system your power doesn't matter you are slave. Wether contacted Kyuubeh or went in sync with all timeline Madokas of the whole Multi-universe. Madoka wish should either upgrade system or change it.

To wish for the change of the witch's nature. To work like "garbage collector" who consumes taint and cease to exist by reaching critical level. Won't free of burden existing MGs or returns their lives back. Kyuubeh ass is still free to acomplish his shady deeds. It would too clever and may leave Madoka completly unscratched, no sacrife made. She isn't that shrewd.
There are tons of depressing ideas going on in my head. Especially i don't want to think that there more timelines otherwise Homura's Crusade is futile. You can't save all Madokas. As long Madoka's true wish won't crystalizes all kinds of wild guesses are valid. I'm waiting for Shaft to persuade me of her value.

Where there any speculation about Madoka replacing QB in pimping business?

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Claiming that Kyubey is capable of understanding human morals isn't a valid statement either when he not only has a different sense of right and wrong, but he lacks some of the most basic human emotions.
When Madoka cried over Sayaka's "dead" body and Kyoko grew angry in ep5, Kyubey said that he didn't understand why they reacted that way. If he did understand, he would have dismissed their sentiments as foolish, unnecessary, or something along those lines.

I beg to differ. One does not need emotions to understand logically when you do certain thing to humans, you are causing harm to them. It also takes at least rudimentary understanding of human psychology in order for him to manipulate the MGs into contracting. He may started out lacking such understanding but at this point of juncture we see him right now in the show, he does possess them.

As for him stating why he does not understand why they reacted that way, that's specifically referring to the whole soul being removed from their body and put into a soul gem. Even if he doesn't understand why that is considered wrong for humans, he does understand that humans are distressed about it. Otherwise he wouldn't bother to respond in the first place.

Essentially he does not care that he is causing harm to humans and do not attempt to understand our sense of right and wrong. There is a distinction between incapable of understanding and capable but not willing to achieve an understanding.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Hypothetically, if a human operated under a different value system, that does not mean the human would be allowed to do as he pleased. Prime examples would be the mentally ill, such as schizophrenics and psychopaths: they must be stopped, but they are not placed in the same category or confined in the same institution as a criminal... as last not anymore. This isn't the early 19th century.

But QB is not mentally ill. Psychopath or not we don't have a value system to compare him to other then ours. If you put a rational human being, who is emotionally detached and do exactly the same things that QB does, he will be clearly be judged by our values.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Whatever Kyubey is planning has to be stopped because he is condemning the fate of others with his contract, but no one should expect him to understand why humans would cry or why he is wrong.

I do expect him to understand because he is capable of understanding. To what degree he understands, or whether or not he choose to disregard that understanding may be arguable, but he isn't so different that he isn't capable of reaching that understanding. He clearly makes proficient uses of human language - that alone proves that capacity exists. Communication is the first step towards understanding.

[panzerfan]

This was my speculah which didn't happen as I've thought when I went and assumed that the progression would be fast enough so that episode 9 would address Walpurgis Night already. The only thing that I was correct in was in stating that the Sayaka story and what happens there is an aside to Homura-Madoka... and that episode 9 would address mechanics. Those I can hardly call speculation as they are logical progression. (guess I fail as oracle). I will repeat Hexen-Einmalien however.

See how it's done!
From one makes ten (Prolog im Himmel leads to what follows Walpurgisnacht )
Let two go again (2 is just progression)
Make even three (death of Mami)
You're rich again.
cast out the four! (Sayaka is cast out)
Now heed the witch:
From five to six
Make seven and eight,
So it’s full weight; (Sayaka is a witch)
Then nine is one, (as in one, nine will lead to Walpurgisnacht)
And ten is none.- (moving forward with Walpurgisnacht)
That is the witch's one-times-one.

I personally don't think Homura has repeated that loop for more than 1000 times or something like that, for her genuine surprise about the events surrounding Mami's death and the situation with Madoka hurling Sayaka's soul onto the roof of a container truck mount against her having very high number of do-over.

[Decagon]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

I personally don't think Homura has repeated that loop for more than 1000 times or something like that, for her genuine surprise about the events surrounding Mami's death and the situation with Madoka hurling Sayaka's soul onto the roof of a container truck mount against her having very high number of do-over.

Her encountering a few surprising events at one go may be indicative of greater failure or perhaps greater despair brought on by her actions in this particular loop. Perhaps it could relate to her own feelings which may have become increasingly desperate or hopeless by the time she has reached this nth loop.

[Seihai]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

See how it's done!
From one makes ten (Prolog im Himmel leads to what follows Walpurgisnacht )
Let two go again (2 is just progression)
Make even three (death of Mami)
You're rich again.
cast out the four! (Sayaka is cast out)
Now heed the witch:
From five to six
Make seven and eight,
So it’s full weight; (Sayaka is a witch)
Then nine is one, (as in one, nine will lead to Walpurgisnacht)
And ten is none.- (moving forward with Walpurgisnacht)
[B] That is the witch's one-times-one.

Here is my own version. It doesn't hold any credibility I think, I just like the concept of the seven deadly sins.

See how it's done! (See in the dream how it's done)
From one make Ten, (From superbia make something, that is nothing (because Ten is also None))
And Two let go, (And avaritia let go (In relation to the witch, Mami offers Homura the Grief Seed))
And Three make even, (And luxuria make even / "make it equal to zero")
You're rich again. (Sayaka becomes rich of determination again after overcoming Mami's death)
Cast out the Four! (Lose your ira, Kamijou! (transition from his anger scene to the scene he stares at his hand where he should have replaced the anger)
From Five to Six, (from Gula (Kyouko ep 5) to Invidia (Sayaka ep 6 who gets upset over how talented Mami was compared to her)
So says the witch, (Kyubei you bitch) <- hey, it rhymes at least
Make seven and eight, (Make Sayaka run away from everything(acedia) and since there is no 7th sin, eight represents that the glass of water is overflowing and thus more than enough)
So it’s full weight: (So Sayaka is completed)
Then Nine is One, (From episode 9 go back to superbia, see everything that revolves around Kyouko)
And Ten is None. ("No one believes in the future, no one can depend on the future. I won't depend on anything anymore" - Homura's nil speech)
That is the witches one-times-one! (That is the formula, that ends when Walpurgis Night begins)

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, it depends on if Sayaka ever gets out of the mess she's currently in. Even if she does get out of that mess, it will almost certainly require extraordinary measures, which means that the harm that Kyubey visited upon her would have been irreparable in most normal course of events.




When it comes to whether or not harm was visited upon a person, it is the perception of the person who is impacted by an action, and not the intent of the person who takes this action, that is at question here. After all, this is a key reason why we differentiate between the intent behind an action (what a person was hoping to achieve by taking a particular action), and the actual impact of that action (what results this action has for the people impacted by it).

Sayaka cleary felt grievously harmed by Kyubey removing her soul from her body and placing it in a soul gem. She made this abundantly clear to Madoka on at least two separate occassions. You and I may disagree with Sayaka's assessment here, but it is her assessment to make, as she's the one having these actions impact upon her.

To use an analogy, imagine that Kyubey is a boxing coach, and Sayaka is his star boxer. To strengthen Sayaka, and improve her chances of success in boxing competitions, Kyubey secretly injects Sayaka with steroids every night while she sleeps. This does indeed make Sayaka stronger, aiding her in her boxing career. It also, however, causes her to undergo frequent roid rage, ultimately destroying her friendship with Madoka and her budding romance with Kamijo.

Coach Kyubey may not have intended harm here, and in his opinion Sayaka benefitted from his actions, but in Sayaka's opinion the benefits of those actions simply aren't worth the associated costs, and she feels grievously harmed and violated by Kyubey injecting her with steroids without gaining her explicit approval on that particular aspect of her agreeing to be his star boxer. And what she feels is what is most important here when we consider the actual impact of actions, as oppossed to the intent behind them.




There's no question that she once intended to kill Sayaka. And given that this isn't a case of euthanasia (let's put the poor suffering person out of his or her misery for his or her own sake), this is clear-cut ill intent, imo.

However, it's almost a moot point now, due to how Kyoko has completely changed her approach to Sayaka over the course of this anime. So while she may have once been evil, she no longer is, imo.

There is a slight difference between your coaching analogy and what actually happened. In the hypothetical example, Coach QB would KNOW that he is doing something wrong. It is against the rules and there are plenty of steroid side effects. I am not convinced that "removing one's soul to safely store in a separate container" is the same.

Sayaka was upset by the situation, and it's very easy to blame QB, but there are two things to take into account. QB was not withholding the information, he just felt it irrelevant. Before forming the contract, Sayaka did not ask clarifying questions, even though the girls KNEW that this was a contract not to be taken lightly, and they would be dedicating their lives to battling witches.

[Ginrai]

At this point I don't see how this series won't end in the same fashion as every other work by Gen Urobuchi. It is annoying though that he was trying to make viewers think it could end any other way by either lying about what the series was about or including absurd plot points that would make you think there was going to be some major twist (I would be surprised if Homura's reason for not telling Madoka the truth right away was something other than that she was afraid).

Still a good story so far - just that the overall plot has been very predictable.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Ginrai

At this point I don't see how this series won't end in the same fashion as every other work by Gen Urobuchi. It is annoying though that he was trying to make viewers think it could end any other way by either lying about what the series was about or including absurd plot points that would make you think there was going to be some major twist (I would be surprised if Homura's reason for not telling Madoka the truth right away was something other than that she was afraid).

Still a good story so far - just that the overall plot has been very predictable.

Major spoiler: NEWS FLASH

QB is Urobuchi Gen.

[sa547]

Originally Posted by taofd

Major spoiler: NEWS FLASH

QB is Urobuchi Gen.

:lol: Methinks of Hideaki Anno.



Seriously, this is getting real close to what I watched 11 years ago.

[panzerfan]

Ok. It is now time for us to begin speculah proper, thermal mechanics in our Madoka.

We are presented with a scenario where the universe is facing thermal death, where essentially a state of thermal equilibrium would be reached and everything ceases to continue in the universe if one will. For some reason, human emotion is able to translate into energy that would prevent this equilibrium, and offset a state where heat won't flow in the universe anymore. The Incubator race, and other sentient race save human are unable to generate this energy...

So, let us begin.
1) Why doesn't the Incubator network tap into more of humanity?
2) Human emotion translating into useful work for the universe in itself fishy.
3) How pressing is this matter of thermal death of the universe? At the universal scale, this massive local system will take a long time to actually reach equilibrium, or max. entropy.
4) The existence of magical girls is beyond reason for the Incubator, so why would something that is not logical be tapped into? If the Incubator race can only document the "what", without having full grasp of the "how" or "why", they are essentially taking into blind faith over something that defies logic to stave off heat death of the universe.
5) Can human emotion really be so significant as to actually have a notable effect to the Universe? The amount of energy that our minuscule sun provides is almost laughable comparing to Alpha Centauri, which is but one of maybe more than 100 billion stars in the Milky Way Galaxy, out of more than 170 billion Galaxies that us human beings can detect.

Just to give people some idea about the timescale that is at work here... it takes 10 to the 100th power years for some black holes to evaporate, giving off some of the last vestiges of energy in the universe. At that point in time there isn't even atoms per se... but the universe still wouldn't have thermal death because there is still increase in entropy. Atoms will fall apart before that happens (at 10 to the 34th power years), and stars will only stop forming at 100 trillion years from now... for all we know at this moment, the Universe is close to 14 billion years old... 14000000000, or 10 to the 10th power x 1.4 years old.

(end lol astrophysics with Magical girl rant)

@taofd: what? you make it sound as if Decagon and I have cheated our way and took off before the official jump-off point for the ep9 discussion