Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood - Episode 54 Discussion/Poll

[Slave0fLife]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Well, you're talking about the whole "the end justify the means" thing here. Again, some people may agree with it, some people not, so arguing about it is pretty much meaningless IMO.

Yeah, but I have fun discussing these kinds of things. They might actually help, in real life, to identify people with similar trains of thought, and maybe win arguments by predicting what other people might say, or make it easier to identify faulty logic. But I understand that this is not a on-topic discussion, so I will leave it for some other time

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Let's go back to the episode.... Alex was epic!!!

He really was. But I didn't like the way they showed the punching sequence. The punches didn't seem that powerful to me.

PS.: Haha, sorry, but I can't help but remember this image everytime I see a discussion in a forum

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Slave0fLife

May I suggest a hypothetical situation? Imagine nuclear cold-war scenario, where you knew that if someone didn't do anything, everyone would blow themselves up in a near future. Imagine also that you had the power to prevent this near-apocalipse by killing 6 million people in the world. If you don't, 6 billion people would die as per consequences of this war in a near future + nuclear winter. Would you kill 6 million people to save 6 billion or would you let everyone die?

Err, I think framing the situation in that sense is pretty bullshit, sorry. 'k, so there's the 'Cardinal Sin' (cool shounen concepts, but as an actual morality to live by...) of Sloth and all, but have the power != have the obligation. So there are 6 billion or 6 million people about to die. Why particularly should I care about any of them? If becoming personally responsible for 6 million deaths is gonna destroy my self worth and shackle me with a lifetime of guilt, Hell no I wouldn't do it. Conversely, if I thought living in a nuclear apocalypse where 6 billion people had been wiped off the face of the earth would be pretty crappy and meaningless, then hey, maybe I would--no guilt attached.

Roy wasn't facing a nuclear apocalypse, though. The anime didn't cover the full Ishval arc so maybe I've forgotten most of it, but the Ishvallan's seemed like they pretty much could've been rounded up (er, massecred :P) without any of Roy's help. There was no 'greater cause' to Roy's participation really; it was more of a power grab/don't get demoted thing so that he could continue to pursue his personal dreams at the top of the military. That is pretty much why Roy feels guilty, maybe. It's not that he killed doing something necessary, it's that he killed unnecessarily in order to pursue a (good-intentioned, but still personal) dream.

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

I had a very long debate on this topic in another forum, so I'm going to try to keep it short.

Basically, the way I see it is that if someone wrongs you, you have the right to do back to them what they did to you. It stops there, and that's how it should be. No more outside parties, no more close people, etc. Of course, they have the right, but if they choose to forfeit that right and forgive the person who wronged them unconditionally, then they're even better. But revenge should be an ok thing. If someone killed someone important to me, you're gonna tell me I have to let that person off whether I like it or not? I don't think that's fair. And Scar has more of a right to revenge than anyone else. They wiped out his entire people for no reason at all. Then you're gonna tell him that he has to let them go? With the exception of Winry's parents, Scar mostly only killed people connected to the Ishval genocide. So why is that wrong?

As for the example about Roy Mustang, if someone killed Riza, then yes they deserve to die. That's very simple. Does that justify killing everyone and everything? Of course not, nobody said that. But 'an eye for an eye makes everyone blind' is a faulty philosophy. It's not an eye for an eye that makes everyone blind. It's an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye. In other words, it's when one person gets revenge on another, people close to the person that vengeance was taken on stake a claim to revenge; but they don't have that right, cuz their fallen loved one committed a crime and deserved what he got.

In fact, being forced to let go of a claim to revenge is a more unhealthy feeling in the real world. People who have been wronged who don't have justice served to them become incredibly negative and cynical, and take those feelings out on everyone and everything around them.

Edit: Also, with regards to Roy Mustang's ambition, I think his willingness to take vengeance for a fallen comrade is essential to his bid for the spot. A leader of a country who will let his people get killed and forgive? That's not a leader people want, nor is that a realistically consistent example. Any country in the world that is attacked by another seeks retributive measures, unless they're not strong enough to. But if the leader of a country were willing to let slide the killings of his people, he should be looked on as a traitor, simply enough.

Lol.... so much for keeping it short. >_>;

Like I said earlier, it's about revenge being wrong for a leader looking to lead to protect the people below him, not revenge being wrong as a person. Put the way I just did, it almost becomes blatantly apparent: the moment you start lusting for revenge over the people you've lost, you've stopped devoting yourself to people you've got left. That's the conflict.

More specifically, nobody said Roy should 'forgive' Envy. Nobody would have said it would be better to let Envy live, except maybe Ed. The proposed arrangement was to let Hawkeye deal the killing blow to Envy, so that it would be done out of neccessity, not to satiate Roy's desire for revenge. It was pretty much just an exercise in teaching Roy to keep control of his emotions, so that Roy would know to always keep his true goal in sight--after all, it's pretty much only that goal that makes him at all worthy of living.

If, after Roy became leader of a country, someone killed Hawkeye, would that person deserve to die? Yes, probably. At the very least, they would deserve to be apprehended as a threat to the populace. However if, in his grief and desire for vengeance, Roy neglected the populace, or even became a threat to it himself? That'd obviously not be justified. That's the idea.


Anyway, as for Royai, it'd pretty much be correct to say I give them 'lip-service' and support it and everything but I have to say this episode didn't really portray it to me in a positive light. Riza pretty much seems to have Roy bound down to his knees, with all her guilt and self-sacrifice talk. Their relationship is definately distorted. It seems like it's mired more in guilt and mutual self-loathing than any actual attraction to each other . Talk about taking all the joy out of it. They're definately, er, 'good' for each other but I personally found none of their scenes here 'squee-worthy' (and god knows I'm a fanboy when it comes down to it--Riza's seiyuu is even Fumiko Orikasa, voice of my favourite Shirley from Code Geass).

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's not the point... the issue here is that this series tells you that murdering men who wronged you is worse than murdering women and children (who did nothing to you) just because you did the latter under orders....

Now, you may agree with this message, but that doesn't mean everyone else has to too... it's just Arakawa's opinion, not some universal truth, and you should respect people who don't agree with it.

Oh but I do respect differing opinions. But you see the "opinions can't be wrong" mentality only works when said opinions are formed based on factual truths about the series. But I sure as hell don't have to respect them if they're based on misconceptions of the show's story and its themes, which your first sentence clearly is.

[Haladflire65]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Anyway, as for Royai, it'd pretty much be correct to say I give them 'lip-service' and support it and everything but I have to say this episode didn't really portray it to me in a positive light. Riza pretty much seems to have Roy bound down to his knees, with all her guilt and self-sacrifice talk. Their relationship is definately distorted. It seems like it's mired more in guilt and mutual self-loathing than any actual attraction to each other . Talk about taking all the joy out of it. They're definately, er, 'good' for each other but I personally found none of their scenes here 'squee-worthy' (and god knows I'm a fanboy when it comes down to it--Riza's seiyuu is even Fumiko Orikasa, voice of my favourite Shirley from Code Geass).

I disagree here. I'll actually keep this short - the foundation for Royai is their unshakeable trust for each other. Roy taking this kind of moral fall would completely destroy Riza's faith in him and therefore I wouldn't say that it's overdoing it to have her say what she said to him. It would really break her. She's been supporting him for a decade at least. I don't think she'd stick around him for this long if it's only out of self-loathing. How do we know that they get no joy out of their relationship? We've only ever seen them in very stressful times. One thing's for certain - they obviously care about each other. There've been a lot of hints dropped throughout the entire series. I think it's a pretty legitimate relationship.

And if you still don't believe me, I'm wondering if you've read manga chapters 100 and 101?

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Roy wasn't facing a nuclear apocalypse, though. The anime didn't cover the full Ishval arc so maybe I've forgotten most of it, but the Ishvallan's seemed like they pretty much could've been rounded up (er, massecred :P) without any of Roy's help. There was no 'greater cause' to Roy's participation really;

I don't really wanna get into this discussion which I consider to be fruitless, but thought I'd point this out since the Ishval arc from the manga is still fresh in my mind as I've read it many times (it's one of my favorite volumes).

Amestris' regular soldiers were getting absolutely destroyed by the Ishvalan warrior priests. According to the soldiers themselves, one priest was enough to take out about ten of the soldiers. So yeah, the coming of the State Alchemists was an absolute necessity in order for them to win the war without getting half of the country's army killed in the process.

This is often overshadow by his killings, but Mustang actually saved a lot of lives in that war, as seen by the scene where the men from his squad thank him for protecting them (which didn't make it to the anime, unfortunately). And no obviously I'm not saying that makes up for his killings (Roy himself couldn't even bring himself to be the least bit happy about it), but hopefully people get the point.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Oh but I do respect differing opinions.

No, you don't.

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

But you see the "opinions can't be wrong" mentality only works when said opinions are formed based on factual truths about the series.

Most of what you call "factual truths" is just your own interpretation about the series, aka just more opinions.

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

But I sure as hell don't have to respect them if they're based on misconceptions of the show's story and its themes, which your first sentence clearly is.

So, you're the ultimate word about getting this series...

On topic stuff... Alex was awesome, and so was Olivier!!

[GaimeGuy]

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

With the exception of Winry's parents, Scar mostly only killed people connected to the Ishval genocide. So why is that wrong?

Wrong. He killed anyone who got in the way of his revenge, and he directed his revenge against every state alchemist, regardless of whether or not they took part in Ishval.

Please tell me how Ed did anything to warrant Scar going after his life, for instance. Or even Shou Tucker, asshole that he was. He didn't have anything to do with Ishval, either.

The problem is that the thoughts of revenge don't stop with those who wronged you. You'd think Scar's immediate target would have been Kimblee, rather than every other alchemist he could find. Assume that Scar successfully wipes out every alchemist in the country: Would his revenge stop there? Or would it move to the army itself? Where does it end?

Same thing with Roy: Would his revenge end with Envy? Not likely. His rage would next be directed at Bradley, in all likelihood, and then the other homunculi and Father, and the higher ups of the miilitary, and their direct subordinates, and so on.

If no one stops someone when they are in a revenge-fueled rage, it is nigh impossible for them to stop on their own. It took a lot of lecturing from his master, Ed, Al, Miles, and especially Winry, for Scar to cease his rage. The cries of a defenseless Envy couldn't stop Roy's anger. Ed couldn't stop his anger (Mustang was pretty much ready to attack Ed so he could deliver the killing blow to Envy). Scar basically getting Mustang to realize he was being just like Scar and Bradley couldn't stop Roy. Hawkeye's pleas couldn't stop Roy. Having a gun pointed at his head couldn't stop Roy. It was only when Riza revealed that she would commit suicide after killing Roy that he finally calmed down.

[Gooral]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

(...)
More specifically, nobody said Roy should 'forgive' Envy. Nobody would have said it would be better to let Envy live, except maybe Ed. The proposed arrangement was to let Hawkeye deal the killing blow to Envy, so that it would be done out of neccessity, not to satiate Roy's desire for revenge. (...)

So basically you're saying that it's OK for Roy to murder Envy but only if he doesn't dirty his own hands and instead uses someone else to do it. That's only step away from him being "pure" and letting his subordinates do dirty jobs and only ordering assassinations. If we want to go "the right path" we should be consequent and Envy should be forgiven. She should be put on trial and go to prison for the rest of her life but "death penalty" is obviously wrong. Seriously, how come can you say that when Roy does it it's wrong but when someone else does it it's all good? That's inconsistency.

Originally Posted by Haladflire65

Think of it this way. What if everyone had let Scar and Roy get their revenges, what if revenge became an 'okay' thing? What would happen if Roy became Furher, and someone close to him, like Riza, got killed? Can he, as the leader of his country, go on another berserk rampage and blow up everyone that had to do with his loss? Vengence is an unhealthy emotion. And this is true especially for Roy, who's aiming for a high and fairly sacred goal, I'd say.
(...)

What? Let's not speculate too much but stick with what we know. We know that Roy wanted revenge on only ONE person (a worm to be more specific). We know that this “person” killed hundreds of people and even more people made suffer. We also know that this “person” would be killed either way. So if all of the above would be fulfilled then yeah, it is OK to exact revenge.

Originally Posted by Slave0fLife

(...)
Mustang said what he wanted to be and do to his friends and followers. They believed it was the correct thing, and agreed/decided to help him, trusting what he said. If he were just a guy doing his thing, not asking anybody's opinion and doing whatever he liked, it would be fine according to the way things are. But, if he changes his inicial attitude on a whim, he would automatically be less trustworthy. How can you trust someone to do anything they say they would if they suddenly decide not to?

WTF? Let's not get to extremes. Roy isn't the guy that "does his thing". He isn't a guy that doesn't ask his subordinates' opinion either. This was one time only. Show me another example of him being selfish. Don't generalize and exaggerate. What you and others are saying is that HE CAN'T do what he wants unless it brings happiness/serenity to more people than him alone. You want him to be a perfect leader, one that doesn't feel any negative emotions. Sorry, but he didn't want to become a Pope but a head of a military (and then civil) country.

[Gooral]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

I
Amestris' regular soldiers were getting absolutely destroyed by the Ishvalan warrior priests. According to the soldiers themselves, one priest was enough to take out about ten of the soldiers. So yeah, the coming of the State Alchemists was an absolute necessity in order for them to win the war without getting half of the country's army killed in the process. (...)

What? They were partisans , it's only a given they would kill some of the soldiers. It didn't change the fact though that Amestris was the aggressor here and they were only defending. A few unarmed men didn't stand a chance to a whole platoon of armed soldiers. Also Amestris army destroyed their homes with their weapons and gradually weakened them. They had nowhere to live, they didn't have means to get food. Amestris had an overwhelming advantage but hey didn't want to drag it more. Fighting partisans is always hard, but that doesn't mean you can nuke all of them.
What Amestris army did was genocide which is far from a justified action.

[germanturkey]

nothing else to say but: Epic episode was epic.

thanks mentar for filling in what was going on with your group.

[Slave0fLife]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Err, I think framing the situation in that sense is pretty bullshit, sorry. 'k, so there's the 'Cardinal Sin' (cool shounen concepts, but as an actual morality to live by...) of Sloth and all, but have the power != have the obligation. So there are 6 billion or 6 million people about to die. Why particularly should I care about any of them? If becoming personally responsible for 6 million deaths is gonna destroy my self worth and shackle me with a lifetime of guilt, Hell no I wouldn't do it. Conversely, if I thought living in a nuclear apocalypse where 6 billion people had been wiped off the face of the earth would be pretty crappy and meaningless, then hey, maybe I would--no guilt attached.

That choice is what I was trying to say that Roy had. He thought that doing something was the best choice, even if he had to carry the weight of all the people he killed. Between having the guilt of killing those people and having the guilt of not doing anything when he believed there was something he could do (and is doing in the story), he chose the later, since in his mind this would result in less deaths and a better future (at least this is what I think Arakawa wrote). There is no right or wrong in the decision, since both suck. There is no reason why you should have to care about the world. But most people have empathy, which is something evolution maintained so that we automatically put ourselves in the places of others, so those who have it don't want to see others suffering since they would feel bad. If you choose to just turn your head and ignore it, that's a way to go about it, but Roy chose to act on what he thought was best. I think that's all anyone can hope for - doing the best with the situation they have. This is because I don't think there is a god, or an absolute good and bad, etc.

Originally Posted by Gooral

WTF? Let's not get to extremes. Roy isn't the guy that "does his thing". He isn't a guy that doesn't ask his subordinates' opinion either. This was one time only. Show me another example of him being selfish. Don't generalize and exaggerate. What you and others are saying is that HE CAN'T do what he wants unless it brings happiness/serenity to more people than him alone. You want him to be a perfect leader, one that doesn't feel any negative emotions. Sorry, but he didn't want to become a Pope but a head of a military (and then civil) country.

Maybe I didn't send the message correctly. I am not saying he can't do what he wants, I am saying he proposed a solution to the way things were in Amestris, and that solution involved him being the ruler and - from the reactions of Riza, Ed, etc in this episode - a calm, non-impulsive one. HE was the one that said that, and his friends and followers believed in him and supported him - while he was staying true to his words. If he killed Envy the way he was going to do (even killing Envy wouldn't be a problem, if it was for a rational reason), he would be a hypocrite and would lose the trust of who believed in him. What those around him have a problem with is hypocrisy, not the killing of Envy or the revenge, in my opinion.

[lonewolf777]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

So mercilessly murdering men is a-okay?

Absolutely not, but I left that out in case people would say 'well, the warrior priests were men, they fought back', etc. I suppose a better word would have been innocents, as that is what I meant.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's not the point... the issue here is that this series tells you that murdering men who wronged you is worse than murdering women and children (who did nothing to you) just because you did the latter under orders....

Exactly. Very well put.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Now, you may agree with this message, but that doesn't mean everyone else has to too... it's just Arakawa's opinion, not some universal truth, and you should respect people who don't agree with it.

Same. I've no intention of imposing my opinion here. Rather, I simply stated that this aspect was one of the very few things I dislike about the series. You're all free to disagree.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Personally, I watch this show for the cool factor.... it has great moments from pretty much all the characters (this episode is a pretty good example). But that's it, I couldn't care less about Arakawa's moral message...

Same, lol.

Originally Posted by Slave0fLife

Spoiler for too long:

I think the problem with the whole revenge thing is not the fact that he is taking revenge, but the way his closest friends and followers would look at him - as a unstable, unfit-to-rule, self-satisfying powerful man, who could act on a whim if he felt like it, with no rational reason behind it. From what I have seen, people respect and trust more the people that have a more stable mind, because even though they have all the raw emotion that everyone has, they control it and are able to make rational decisions, not blurred or influenced by those emotions. This is, I believe, a trait of a good leader.

That bolded statement, then, says we're in agreement. Not being in control of your emotions can be problematic, but then, in this case, that would be the issue, not the revenge. If that's so, the fear is of Mustang being a self-serving tyrant. By all means, that is bad. But him acting equally to someone who does a wrong, I consider that justice. I suppose then, the question is the context in which he does it. The answer, naturally, is under clear mind.

Originally Posted by Slave0fLife

Mustang said what he wanted to be and do to his friends and followers. They believed it was the correct thing, and agreed/decided to help him, trusting what he said. If he were just a guy doing his thing, not asking anybody's opinion and doing whatever he liked, it would be fine according to the way things are. But, if he changes his inicial attitude on a whim, he would automatically be less trustworthy. How can you trust someone to do anything they say they would if they suddenly decide not to?

I come in peace

Well, they all agreed that Envy should die. They just didn't want him to do it. He didn't really change his opinion, just his state of mind. Frankly, he did the same thing to Lust for hurting his subordinate, so I don't really see the big deal... other than him going half-way crazy

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Like I said earlier, it's about revenge being wrong for a leader looking to lead to protect the people below him, not revenge being wrong as a person. Put the way I just did, it almost becomes blatantly apparent: the moment you start lusting for revenge over the people you've lost, you've stopped devoting yourself to people you've got left. That's the conflict.

Is it wrong for the leader on behalf of someone else? In other words, if the leader institutes capital punishment for a murderer, ie getting revenge on behalf of the fallen's family, is that wrong? If so, there are two options. First, the family of the victim can seek vigilante justice; second, for that victim's family to be told that your family member's life is not worth this person's life, so you have to forgo your right and settle with something lesser.

Now, if you decide, therefore, that it is not wrong for the ruler to institute capital punishment for murderers, then why would it be wrong for him to institute it for someone who murdered someone dear to him? Is it automatically self-serving, just because the person happens to be a friend/family member/lover of the leader?

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

More specifically, nobody said Roy should 'forgive' Envy. Nobody would have said it would be better to let Envy live, except maybe Ed. The proposed arrangement was to let Hawkeye deal the killing blow to Envy, so that it would be done out of neccessity, not to satiate Roy's desire for revenge. It was pretty much just an exercise in teaching Roy to keep control of his emotions, so that Roy would know to always keep his true goal in sight--after all, it's pretty much only that goal that makes him at all worthy of living.

I'm in agreement here as to the principle. The series, however, has a whole theme of revenge is wrong, etc., as made evident by the main character's philosophy, as well as themes dealing with other characters.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

If, after Roy became leader of a country, someone killed Hawkeye, would that person deserve to die? Yes, probably. At the very least, they would deserve to be apprehended as a threat to the populace. However if, in his grief and desire for vengeance, Roy neglected the populace, or even became a threat to it himself? That'd obviously not be justified. That's the idea.

So, essentially what you're saying is that it wouldn't be wrong for 'revenge' to be taken, it would rather depend on the intention of Roy as the leader in taking it? Ok, that seems fair enough. Nonetheless, I do think it's a bit exaggerated in assuming that Roy taking revenge would make him a threat to the populace. Frankly, I think him getting his revenge would put those angry and hateful feelings away, thus ending his need to act on them further. If it were too many people involved, well, that's another story XD

Originally Posted by GaimeGuy

Wrong. He killed anyone who got in the way of his revenge, and he directed his revenge against every state alchemist, regardless of whether or not they took part in Ishval.

Yeah, that was a slight simplification of the situation on my part. What I probably should have said was that Scar killed/went after people who he associated with Ishbal's genocide only, as opposed to civilians. In other words, while his logic was flawed in who to include, Scar did only kill military personnel (other than Winry's parents, which was a mistake on his part); furthermore, the non-State Alchemists that he killed were often trying to kill him, so that wouldn't really be him initiating. Whether or not those military personnel had anything to do with Ishval or not, such as the case of Ed, is another matter.

So what I meant to say is that Scar's vendetta is 100% justified, but I think he made the scope for that vendetta slightly too wide.

Originally Posted by GaimeGuy

The problem is that the thoughts of revenge don't stop with those who wronged you. You'd think Scar's immediate target would have been Kimblee, rather than every other alchemist he could find. Assume that Scar successfully wipes out every alchemist in the country: Would his revenge stop there? Or would it move to the army itself? Where does it end?

Same thing with Roy: Would his revenge end with Envy? Not likely. His rage would next be directed at Bradley, in all likelihood, and then the other homunculi and Father, and the higher ups of the miilitary, and their direct subordinates, and so on.

In both of these cases, I see nothing wrong with either pursuing their revenge further, with the exception of Scar killing military personnel/State Alchemists who had nothing to do with Ishval.

Originally Posted by GaimeGuy

If no one stops someone when they are in a revenge-fueled rage, it is nigh impossible for them to stop on their own. It took a lot of lecturing from his master, Ed, Al, Miles, and especially Winry, for Scar to cease his rage. The cries of a defenseless Envy couldn't stop Roy's anger. Ed couldn't stop his anger (Mustang was pretty much ready to attack Ed so he could deliver the killing blow to Envy). Scar basically getting Mustang to realize he was being just like Scar and Bradley couldn't stop Roy. Hawkeye's pleas couldn't stop Roy. Having a gun pointed at his head couldn't stop Roy. It was only when Riza revealed that she would commit suicide after killing Roy that he finally calmed down.

Well, maybe the way one should look at it is that trying to stop them in that state is wrong. I don't see why they should be told they're wrong for wanting to deliver justice on behalf of their loved ones. It's easy to say that it's wrong from a neutral, bystanding position without empathy, but when you're in the situation things look a lot different. As I said before, I don't think it's for anyone to tell Scar that his revenge is wrong and that he needs to let it go. They just don't have that right, because they didn't experience what he did (with the exception of his master, maybe). If he has those feelings, that's a normal thing and you can't force him to be the bigger man. Who forced Amestris' military to be the hypothetical bigger man when they murdered everyone in Ishval? At least Scar has a reason for what he's doing. And once again, if he DOES choose to be the bigger man, then that's even better for everyone. But that is his choice and his choice alone. For others who aren't in the same position to lecture him and console him into being the bigger man without understanding is unfair.

In any case, I was kind of afraid this would happen, my failure to keep it short not helping. The discussion's already been steered off topic, so I'm not going to continue posting regarding this subject. However, I would love to hear what anyone else has to say; exchanging ideas is always a fun experience. Therefore, if anyone wants to reply, I would be glad to read your post, and if you want, I could send you a private message with my thoughts.

[White Manju Bun]

The build up from epi 53 was awesome, not being a manga reader I wasnt sure who Envy really was but when Hawkeye said "he calls me Riza when its just us two" I was like...no he doesnt But enough to fool Envy. Man that was awesome!!

Another Homunculi bites the dust.

Excellent epi!!

*reads above* Keep it civil everyone...

[SagaraSouske]

@Gooral, having a complete different opinion on this episode, on characterization, and on the theme of story is fine. You are entitled to your own opinion. But stop trying to make it seem like everyone else's view are not valid just because you don't agree with or believe them. Seriously be open minded. People are different and will like and dislike, or interpret things in a different way. Respect that others will have a different take on things, however "wrong" it may seem to you. I have tried so long in the Claymore thread to make you see that point.

P.S. I won't get dragged into detailed argument and counter argument again because I know that doesn't work with you. Just look at the bigger picture.

[Gooral]

@SagaraSouske
I don't see that having my opinion is fine. I've written my opinion and was ridiculed by Endless Twilight and others who didn't even bother to counter my arguments and at best deflected them (they've just stated their own opinion or wrote "you're wrong". Wow, what argumentation...). If you can counter them then by all means do so. If not, stay silent and don't go off-topic preaching me.

My most important arguments:
Killing innocent people and not changing for worse and Scar changing for better only support my opinion. Also Roy killing Lust with the same eyes as when he wanted to kill Envy and not "losing himself" prove I'm right (as I've written a year ago).

ET's and other's arguments:
Ed (that is a kid and didn't experience what Mustang did), Scar (whose case I've already discussed about) and Riza feared it would change him and we might think that it was Arakawa's words themselves (and by that I mean her personal belief not only character's). But as I said, it would only show Arakawa's inconsistency.

So while my arguments show what actually happened, ET's and others' arguments are full of "what if", "imagine that", etc. Speculations and only that. Basically it comes down to: "Arakawa says so through her characters so it must be right". But the problem with that is that we don't know whether Arakawa would really make a psycho of Roy if he killed Envy (which I seriously doubt). If Mustang did change after killing Envy it would mean Arakawa was being inconsistent and everything we knew about him before was gibberish. Since killing innocent people didn't change him (and he was much younger than he is now) and killing Lust didn't change him then why would killing Envy do that?

[White Manju Bun]

Im going to remind people of two things listed in the very first post of this thread

Be polite to your fellow forum members.
Please try to keep the discussion on topic.

You all dont have to agree, but if someone does disagree with you, then so be it. Stating fact is fine, stating opinions is fine but remember a lot of what is being talked about recently in thread is pure speculation. None of us know what Mustang would have been like if he killed Envy. Arakawa didnt give us that particular storyline. We can debate and discuss and probably should do it in Mustang Character Thread since its a perfect topic as long as its discussed in a civil manor.

I will say this...

Originally Posted by Gooral

Since killing innocent people didn't change him (and he was much younger than he is now) and killing Lust didn't change him then why would killing Envy do that?

Youre forgetting one very important fact. Envy killed Hughes. This was revenged based which is what worried Ed and Hawkeye. Everything else was what he was ordered to do.

Ok Im done. Remember keep this civil.

[Gooral]

Originally Posted by White Manju Bun

Youre forgetting one very important fact. Envy killed Hughes. This was revenged based which is what worried Ed and Hawkeye. Everything else was what he was ordered to do.
(...)

You're forgetting other thing. Mustang snapped either way since Lust said "I wish I had killed him myself". She also seriously injured Havoc (and I'm not sure he knew he was alive then). Plus she wanted to kill his beloved Riza. I would say that he was at least as mad as he was when facing Envy but the difference was nobody stopped him. Riza was in shock (she couldn't move and if not for Al she would be dead) and Al didn't see it necessary to budge in (that's one of the reasons I love this character and dislike Ed).

[White Manju Bun]

Originally Posted by Gooral

You're forgetting other thing. Mustang snapped either way since Lust said "I wish I had killed him myself". She also seriously injured Havoc (and I'm not sure he knew he was alive then). Plus she wanted to kill his beloved Riza.

True and I do know she wanted to kill Hawkeye, but she didnt. Envy killed Hughes and plus Mustang didnt know this for a while either. There's a huge difference btwn nearly killing and totally killing. Hughes was his best friend and the one who said he'd be there when Mustang became leader. That goes along way. Im sure if Lust had killed Hawkeye the result to how he killed Lust would have been the same as with Envy, but again will never know.

[Gooral]

It's funny that you see such a big difference between Mustang killing Lust and killing Envy but can't see that killing dozens of innocent people should change Roy drastically more than killing a mass murderer (even if it was out of revenge). Even more so since Roy was young when he killed Ishbalans. He didn't have problems then (and by that I mean he didn't become a psycho) why would he have later (when he was more experienced and have conscience partially immune to the sin of killing another being).

[xxkathxx]

Great episode! Envy's lowly form with tears running made him so pitiable for a second.

Roy's repeating flaming Envy - reminds me of a psycho parent who hits a child repeatedly and repeatedly and repeatedly....

I thought it was great the way it handled the first part well and the second part to wtflolz@Alex. I also like Izumi's entrance; it's like hey, 1 more comrade in action!