Madoka Magica - Episode 05 Discussion / Poll

[night_sentinel]

I agree with everything you said Triple R if this is a normal mahou shoujo Sayaka's qualities which is considered death flag would be very much sought after and admired even... Heck, if we think about it Kamijo's wish would guarantee a romantic happy ending in normal shows... But, this isn't one of those, is it?

Darn, infected by Triple R virus...
Go Sayaka fight!!! Defy the plot and your death flags!! Get the happy ending ^^

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Homura on the other hand... she comes off as very cold, and ruthless in this. Very much contrary to monir, I don't see how that's admirable at all. Granted, Homura may be intentionally trying to sound excessively harsh to scare Madoka away from even considering being a magical girl, but otherwise, her words to Madoka do not reflect well on Homura to me. Telling a young teenage girl to just give up on her best friend and to expect that best friend to die - that's not exactly nice, people.

[/SPOILER]

Homura is still Homura on this episode for me. She's still very interesting and well mysterious again. ^^ (sigh half the epileptic tree comes from Homura )

I'm very interested on her line "I don't like to lie or I don't make promises I can't keep" regarding helping/protecting Sayaka. She said that madoka should just give up on Sayaka which understandably leaves Madoka upset.

On the other hand, she never said that she won't help Sayaka either or she won't attempt to help Sayaka. She just said that it is impossible... But, on this episode she rescued Sayaka anyway.

It could be because it will cause Madoka to become MH that she rescued Sayaka this time. But even if Homura has no interest in Sayaka just with Madoka. Homura should have realized at the beginning that Madoka will stick with Sayaka. So it would mean if she doesn't want Madoka to be a magic girl she'll have to rescue Sayaka or help her again and again which would make the promise of helping Sayaka easier and since madoka is reassured she won't tag along much. ^^

But, Homura did not make this promise because she can't keep it and she doesn't like to lie. So it means Homura believes that even if she's in the sideline helping or in the team she can't guarantee to protect Sayaka .,, Now this could mean 2 things, Homura has some sort of precognition or future knowledge wherein Sayaka is doomed... or it would be just Homura reiterating even if she protected or teamed up with Sayaka it does not guarantee their safety which would be in line in her cynical views of Mahou shoujo life.

Darn!!! I want a happy ending!!! Sayaka defy your fate or the future !!! Believe in the power of love and justice!!!

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by night_sentinel

I agree with everything you said Triple R if this is a normal mahou shoujo Sayaka's qualities which is considered death flag would be very much sought after and admired even... Heck, if we think about it Kamijo's wish would guarantee a romantic happy ending in normal shows... But, this isn't one of those, is it?

Darn, infected by Triple R virus...
Go Sayaka fight!!! Defy the plot and your death flags!! Get the happy ending ^^

Personally I'm with this sentiment. Fight on Sayaka! She's pretty much been written into the grave already, but I'll hold onto hope that with her strong mindset and durability that she can make it.

Sayaka really is in the wrong series. Should ask for a transfer to a more cheerful mahou shoujo series where she'd be a valued member of any group .

[Makender]

Originally Posted by omimon

I don't think it's a recharge of magic but rather cleaning the bad stuff that appears when you use magic. The question now is what happens if you don't use magic at all and what happens when the soul gem is completely filled with bad stuff?

Eh I know all of that. Just a little sloppy with my words. But yes, I would like to know what would happen if a magical girl refrained from using magic or doing her "job" to hunt witches down. Would her soul gem slowly collect the aforementioned "mud" and force her to hunt witches? Guess that would be the cost to having a wish granted. Otherwise girls should be ripping Kyuube off right and left.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by night_sentinel

I agree with everything you said Triple R if this is a normal mahou shoujo Sayaka's qualities which is considered death flag would be very much sought after and admired even... Heck, if we think about it Kamijo's wish would guarantee a romantic happy ending in normal shows... But, this isn't one of those, is it?

Honestly, I don't expect Sayaka to last until the very end.

But I can't help but to route for Sayaka, and hope that she overcomes the odds. She's an extremely likable character, imo.

At the very least, I'll take enjoyment out of each and every episode that Sayaka successfully survives through, including this one.

Darn, infected by Triple R virus...
Go Sayaka fight!!! Defy the plot and your death flags!! Get the happy ending ^^

LOL! Glad to know I'm not the only one routing for Sayaka.

Homura is still Homura on this episode for me. She's still very interesting and well mysterious again. ^^ (sigh half the epileptic tree comes from Homura )

I agree that she's interesting and mysterious.

I'm very interested on her line "I don't like to lie or I don't make promises I can't keep" regarding helping/protecting Sayaka. She said that madoka should just give up on Sayaka which understandably leaves Madoka upset.

On the other hand, she never said that she won't help Sayaka either or she won't attempt to help Sayaka. She just said that it is impossible... But, on this episode she rescued Sayaka anyway.

In fairness, it's possible (if not likely) that Homura was just trying to horrify Madoka to the point where Madoka would just entirely give up on the magical girl world, and that would sadly require Madoka to give up on Sayaka by extension.

From Homura's perspective, that was likely the ideal outcome, since her focus is almost solely on stopping Madoka from becoming a magical girl (which I will assume is for a very good reason).

However, the harder option that requires a lot of vigilance is for Homura to watch Sayaka's back, so Madoka doesn't have to. I can understand Homura not wanting to do that. It's hard enough being a veteran magical girl without having to constantly watch the back of a rookie.

It could be because it will cause Madoka to become MH that she rescued Sayaka this time. But even if Homura has no interest in Sayaka just with Madoka. Homura should have realized at the beginning that Madoka will stick with Sayaka. So it would mean if she doesn't want Madoka to be a magic girl she'll have to rescue Sayaka or help her again and again which would make the promise of helping Sayaka easier and since madoka is reassured she won't tag along much. ^^

That's likely what Homura will have to do yes. Homura may have underestimated how tight the bond between Madoka and Sayaka is.

But, Homura did not make this promise because she can't keep it and she doesn't like to lie. So it means Homura believes that even if she's in the sideline helping or in the team she can't guarantee to protect Sayaka .,, Now this could mean 2 things, Homura has some sort of precognition or future knowledge wherein Sayaka is doomed... or it would be just Homura reiterating even if she protected or teamed up with Sayaka it does not guarantee their safety which would be in line in her cynical views of Mahou shoujo life.

Good points, I agree.

I'm growing fond of the idea that Homura wished for some sort of precognition. It would fit nicely with what we know of the plot and characters so far, and is a touch less convoluted than time travel or time-reset.

Darn!!! I want a happy ending!!! Sayaka defy your fate or the future !!! Believe in the power of love and justice!!!

I love the way you phrase that. The reason being that this show is actually starting to have an ever so slight element of Gurren Lagann to it, for me.

It probably won't stay that way, but I'd find it nice if it did.

[Malkuth]

My take on the speculation is in the appropriate thread ...

... as for the episode itself, I got the same feeling with another poster with the whole Kamijou recovery party, it reminded me of Shinji's delusions at the end of EVA's TV run. It really felt like it was Sayaka's dream, being altruistic &c. Really nice job there at raising a death/misery BANNER XD

... as for Madoka, it also starts to annoy me too; make up your mind already! Wishing for a cake is better than going around episode after episode angsting about your friends being killed, tormented, and so on!

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

phew! just watched the show and i must say the battle scene between sayaka and kyoko was WOW!! lol.. i was really in awe with the choreography of it all. sure it might be mediocre for some, but i thought it's totally heart-pumping and thrilling. XD i just love how kyoko swang her lance and how she attacked was nice! <3 and how sayaka was dodging and counter-attacking. LOL. i like it when both the tip of their blades met.. lol. i'm so shallow, being all happy because of that. XD

i like kyoko despite being an effin b*tch!! she sorta reminds me of nao yuuki from mai-hime! LOL

Go Sayaka fight!!!

LOL. srsly, i'm on with this now having seen how dedicated and strong-willed sayaka was. (she's more likable than madoka IMO *shot*) as much as i'd want her to live and have a happy end, i think she wont. with all these events happening so far, she's likely to meet her end and that's what i can perceive of course i could be wrong. here's just to hoping she'd pull through this. Let those death flags vanish! XDD

ooh, btw, i didn't expect kamijou to be thankful though. XD it's the twist for me. XD i thought he's gonna be an ingrate! XD but that's nice since that only proves how good was gen!

Originally Posted by JDGBOLT

Not sure if anyone else noticed, but it seems like there may be some credence to the whole time travel kind of thing, potentially. QB mentions that the type of wish affects the abilities of the mahou shoujo, at least indirectly, with how sayaka has high regeneration capabilities with the wish to heal another. It seems to me, at least the way that the scene was shot, that homura's ability isn't so much teleportation, as we thought, but could be more time manipulation, as in perhaps pausing time. In the scene as she shows up, we can see her moving along from the point of view of a still drop of water, which after she is done moving, the water begins moving again. Also, after, showing the shot of a water drop behind madoka, it suddenly bursts like something has hit it, all while time is paused. So it seems to me that her ability is pausing time or something to that effect, even if only for a short time. Also her item that is on her as she appears looks to be some sort of clock or cyclical kind of thing. So I wouldn't be surprised if it was some kind of time manipulation happening there, and could provide a hint to what her wish was. Just some food for thought.

WOW man! i must agree this is one of the nicest observation i've read so far. XD I really like it when speculations are about homura's wish. I LOVE HOMURUN!! xDD i like to share it to others, can i? LOL. XDD



lastly, BEST EPISODE YET!!! CAN'T WAIT FOR EP 06!!!! WOOOOT!!


EDIT: CLIFFHANGER MAKES ME WANT TO HANG MYSELF!!! LOL.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

My take on the speculation is in the appropriate thread ...

... as for the episode itself, I got the same feeling with another poster with the whole Kamijou recovery party, it reminded me of Shinji's delusions at the end of EVA's TV run. It really felt like it was Sayaka's dream, being altruistic &c. Really nice job there at raising a death/misery BANNER XD

... as for Madoka, it also starts to annoy me too; make up your mind already! Wishing for a cake is better than going around episode after episode angsting about your friends being killed, tormented, and so on!

I probably shouldn't toot my own horn, but I did kind of call some of this.


Key Excerpts:

So, here's what I think will most likely happen: At some point, Sayaka will be in grave peril, and Madoka (still a normal girl) will be nearby watching on. The only way for Madoka to save Sayaka's life will be for her to choose to be a magical girl. Madoka will do so, and will go on to save Sayaka's life. However, this will also set in motion very dark events leading up to a chillingly clamorous conflict.

There's an outside chance that an earlier speculation of mine could be wrong, and that this could occur even next episode (since the latest magical girl has stated a desire to kill Sayaka). But I think that Sayaka will win out in that struggle, but will not come out of it unscathed. This will horrify Madoka, and start her to second guess whether or not to become a magical girl, in order for her to better help out and support Sayaka.

Sadly, I think that we might see a lot of angsting Madoka for the next few episodes, with her showing lots and lots of guilt over not being a magical girl in order to help out Sayaka.


_____________________________________________


I made this prediction because it seemed to me to be the most believable and effective way for the plot to progress, while continually tempting Madoka into becoming a magical girl.

But, yes, it does potentially mean Madoka angsting a lot. That, combined with her indecisiveness, can be a bit annoying, yes. What I was saying before is that it's not annoying for her to simply care about her friend, and not want Sayaka to get harmed. But the angsting could get old fast...

[bigdeath]

The fight this episode was quite fun and we've gotten some important questions answered such as learning that there is a limit to what those wishes can grant. And I quite liked to red headed magical girl; wonderful weapon she had. It seems Homura had a chance of heart and decided to help anyway. Probably just to prevent Madoka from having to become a magical girl herself.

As for angsting, Madoka has even gotten anywhere near the level of angsting needed for her to be annoying.

[gecd]

Spoiler for oh look!!!!!:

the shadow!!! he has nine tails!!!!

Originally Posted by night_sentinel

Go Sayaka fight!!! Defy the plot and your death flags!! Get the happy ending ^^

Yeah!!! Go Sayaka go!!!!!!!



and when we got our hope high, that the best time for urobuchi to crush it

[venk]

Sayaka's wish : to recover kyousuke's arm
Sayaka's sub ability : superhuman regenerating ability

Homura's wish ?

Homura's sub ability : teleport
Homura's wish : Time Travel from future to madoka's age (before madoka became a mahou shoujo)

[applejuice]

Kyoko is a great character, I love her so much. She is must-needed in order to develop this plot. Nonaka Ai's voice is really helping it. Sayaka can go die. Kyoko's representation of 'proper puella magic' of the series. She seems to know this world a lot more than Mami did, which apparent from her talk with Kyuube; 'That's why you recruited this girl, right?'.

So many questions and Sayaka death flags. What does it mean by Homura being 'irregular'? Why Kyuube is being so OCD on Madoka? Why different wishes grants different abilities? What's Kyuube's purpose? Why Homura desperately stopping Madoka falling into Kyuube's lure? What's Kyoko's motivation? Again, I can't wait for the next episode.

[night_sentinel]

Originally Posted by venk

Sayaka's wish : to recover kyousuke's arm
Sayaka's sub ability : superhuman regenerating ability

Homura's wish ?

Homura's sub ability : teleport
Homura's wish : Time Travel from future to madoka's age (before madoka became a mahou shoujo)

I think JDBOLT mentioned that Homura's ability seems to be time manipulation which looks like teleportation to us viewers. Since, when someone stopped time, one can walk or run to another place and when time moves normally, it looks like teleportation.

I've posted this on another thread already but, I think this is relevant here:
Evidence for Time manipulation as of Episode 5
Madoka's bubble burst as if someone passed through it and Homura's reflection in the bubble is seen passing through plus Homura's voice is heard for a moment. Then, time seems to resume a slow pace. This means that Homura moved really fast or she stopped time or slowed it, then moved to save Sayaka.

Evidence against Time manipulation and for Teleportation as of Episode 5
The placement of Sayaka and Kyoko at the final scene. Its subtle but if we look at it, Sayaka moved up a bit. Sayaka is supposed to be where Kyoko stabbed and far away from the water falling. But, when Homura came she is near the water and Kyoko is surprised meaning this happened in an instant.

Of course, both can do the same effect. In the Time manipulation power theory, Homura could just have manually moved Sayaka (highly unlikely) . In the other theory for Teleportation, Homura can use her teleportation ability very well that she can speed herself up or sort of appear near Madoka but is so fast that she can't be seen except by a burst of bubble and use her teleportation ability to teleport Sayaka in a safe location when she appeared.

Beside this, it is also possible that Homura possess both ability at the same time. She can do Time manipulation and Teleportation or have some ability which allows both effect. But, I find this highly unlikely since it would mean that Homura is ridiculously overpowered.

Come to think of it, with the apocalyptic dream or future or alternate dimension that Homura is fighting she would need it won't she? And note even if she possess both powers she is losing in the dream or whatever it is. Scary thought....

[garbage]

doesn't it seem that during the part in this episode when they're leaving for the patrol that sayaka was unable to hear the telepathic conversation between QB and madoka. I got the impression during the earlier episodes that it's some kind of broadcast and all MS can hear it => the reason why homura was able to eavesdrop and comment on ep.1 (...or is that ep.2 not sure, but its the classroom scene)

[Reckoner]

Good episode.

Personally, I just want to see everyone around Madoka die. Sure that might provide interesting plot details, but the reason I want to see this is just because I just want to see how torn down and enraged this subforum will become if this happens.

[Silverwyrm]

The show showed us with mami that it isn't afraid to kill character, and be mean about it. That doesn't mean expect everyone to die though. Iv'e read the speculations on Sayaka dying and while they seem feasible I don't think that's the only direction it can take.

Kyoko represents a totally different view of MG than what we have seen so far, but is in tune with what Homura has been saying "we fight for our wishes". She is just trying to survive the most efficient way, regardless of the side effects on others. Helping people doesn't help a MG survive necessarily, and so she doesn't care for it unless it has a grief seed.

As for Homura, at this point protecting Sayaka is protecting Madoka. We all saw how close she was too accepting the contract, if Homura is serious about keeping Madoka out of this then she's gonna have to watch over Sayaka even if she won't make any promises about it.

[Spinell]

Originally Posted by garbage

doesn't it seem that during the part in this episode when they're leaving for the patrol that sayaka was unable to hear the telepathic conversation between QB and madoka. I got the impression during the earlier episodes that it's some kind of broadcast and all MS can hear it => the reason why homura was able to eavesdrop and comment on ep.1 (...or is that ep.2 not sure, but its the classroom scene)

QB said in episode 2 that the girl's themselves can't do telepathy, he is merely relaying whats was said. So i guess he left Sayaka out of this particular conversation.

On the episode, Kyoko didn't even entertain the thought that Sayaka might or might not turn into a witch. So i don't think Puella Magi can somehow turn into witches unless they do so automatically when they die.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by night_sentinel

Beside this, it is also possible that Homura possess both ability at the same time. She can do Time manipulation and Teleportation or have some ability which allows both effect. But, I find this highly unlikely since it would mean that Homura is ridiculously overpowered.

While it would make her 'overpowered' indeed, i am not sure keeping Homura "balanced" is a concern of the show - she is largely an enigma, and so is her array of abilities. She also displayed an ability to materialize time bombs, and official profile shows her with a bow, which we have yet to see. Then there is that buckler-like-thing on her arm. For one reason or another, she seems significantly better equipped than the other MGs, who seem to be a fairly one trick pony, with minor variations to said trick.

Considering that MG powers seem to be derived from the context of their wishes, Homura's must have been a pretty complex one But i wouldn't consider teleporting and/or "time manipulation" of some sort an impossibility for her - it also lines up nicely with my own guesses of there being a "world/time loop" at play, and either of those abilities i can see derived from a wish that created one.

On another note, a freebie

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Spinell

On the episode, Kyoko didn't even entertain the thought that Sayaka might or might not turn into a witch. So i don't think Puella Magi can somehow turn into witches unless they do so automatically when they die.

The idea that magical girls turn into witches has been pure speculation from Day 1.

Why this particular speculation is so popular, and bought into by so many people, is truly beyond me.

There really is almost no supporting evidence (within the episodes themselves) whatsoever for the speculation that magical girls turn into witches.

I'm truly still trying to get why so many people are pretty much assuming this pure speculation to be true.

[garbage]

[QUOTE=Spinell;3471262]QB said in episode 2 that the girl's themselves can't do telepathy, he is merely relaying whats was said. So i guess he left Sayaka out of this particular conversation.

just pointing out because it's really suspicious how QB wouldn't want sayaka to hear what she said to madoka just then. It also begs the question on why he would include homura on that previous episode, ne? when QB him/itself even admitting that he/it doesnt know anything much about homura. hmm

[night_sentinel]

@Skyfall

You're right that this isn't some kind of game where there need to be game balance. Its very likely that Homura could have time manipulation and teleportation... its just I find the idea very very scary. Right now, Homura can take all of mahou shoujo that we know of Mami, Sayaka and Kyoko? (highly possible, we'll see in the next episode) and win. And yet at Episode 1, Homura is losing badly to whatever the tea cup/world tree is. Assuming that there is a world reset or whatever happens in the future it would mean that the big bad is very strong.

But, I suppose that would be very possible in the show since it would justify Homura's belief that she doesn't need or want comrades since she is ridiculously strong by herself and the Mahou shoujo deal is a very bad one.

Btw, I think with Kyubey admitance that Homura is irregular that he doesn't know about, it is very likely that Homura is from the immortal or long live or from the future/alternate dimension or world reset involved. ^^ you know there is something fishy when you can consider all these options as seriously possible...

@Triple R
I think its just us anticipating a very bad ending or something very wrong with the wish... when I think about wish anything genie i always look for the fine print nowadays.

Though there isn't much evidence except the superficial similarity of the grief seed and soul seed/ jewel and the cleansing effect which is a sort of recharge is enough for paranoia fuel. There is also a nice symmetry with the mahou shoujo turning to the creature that they hurt the most. But, this is all from the meta point of view and there is still no concrete facts... nether less, it doesn't change the fact that it is very possible...

It would also help justify why the hell would anyone want to pursue grief seed and risk their life when their wish is already granted... unless there is another catch which I think next likely suspect would be the wish being void I suppose.